Hospital gave FIL Narcan after administering too many pain meds...

[Anonymous]

Not uncommon and not much to do about it. If he's living you don't have damages to pursue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Johns Hopkins University says “Avoidable Medical Errors” are the third leading cause of death (greater than 250,000 per year) after heart disease and cancer.

“The CDC’s way of collecting national health statistics FAILS to classify medical errors separately on the death certificate.”


Yikes!!!!!

[Anonymous]

My dad passed away last year and we are 100 percent confident that this is what killed him. He was supposed to be discharged and they for some reason gave him way too many meds the day of discharge. Had to use narcan several times. He was confused after that and I think he had brain damage. Horrible. Died shortly after that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nurse here who has given Narcan a few times, none due to medical negligence. And I'm certainly not one to say negligence doesn't occur, as I've seen it first hand.

All the experiences I've had given it have been for reasons 2358 stated. They've been given an appropriate dose, maybe on the high end of appropriate but still ok, but are too sedated. I've never had to give it for respiratory distress, all the times have been basically because a patient becomes so sedated they aren't responding appropriately. Managing post op pain in elderly can be difficult.

I wouldn't immediately jump to medical negligence or respiratory problems. What he should do is request all his records so he has drug, dose, and time administered.

What does “intended side effects of narcotics” mean? If I’m reading your post correctly 2358’s unintended reference is what you’re saying where a patient receives the appropriate dosage but for whatever reason doesn’t respond well.

Also, if a patient is too sedated, are they not able to eventually come out of that state on their own?

TIA.

Sorry I'm half asleep with a cranky baby in my arm so hopefully my answer makes some sense. I misread pps post but even with narcotics part of the intended side effect is for the patient to have a somewhat sedative effect. The unintended side effect is that they become too sedated. And yes, at times they can come out of it on their own, but it's not really worth the risk. If a patient is simply obtunded or heavily sedated but their vital signs are intact, we aren't emergently acting. But its a bit of a bigger picture thing. If they are arousable and responsive but lethargic (picture someone still coming out of surgery) we will probably closely monitor. However if we are sternal rubbing them and they are minimally responsive or they aren't able to keep their eyes open, they run thr risk of deteriorating. And it's much less dangerous to treat someone who is obtunded vs someone who is obtunded and now is breathing slowlu and shallow, a HR that's getting lower, and a BP that's dropping.

Pain control is a very fickle thing because its impossible to determine what someone's pain level is. A patient who complains of 10/10 pain despite receiving meds and appearing to be resting comfortably can't be blown off because they dont appear to be in 10/10 pain.

I'd say 75% of the times I've been called to the bedside of a patient who has needed Narcan its because the patient is either elderly or has another condition which causes the meds not to process properly.
20% has been people who have taken illicit drugs as well or who have pocketed the pain meds and then taken a bunch at once
5% has been for no known reason.

DP. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. I found it really interesting and helpful to understanding how these things happen and why. As much as we laypeople like to believe medicine is a precise science, there is so much art to it that we don’t fully appreciate.

[Anonymous]

I know it's a burden on families, but no one should ever be left in a hospital without someone by their side 24/7.

I had a simple procedure with an IV put in afterwards with medication. The IV somehow started leaking absolutely everywhere under the bed (a valve was left open) and I started convulsing. I'm convinced it would have gone south really quick if DH wasn't there to see it. When they finally hooked my IV up again, the meds were at too high of a dose for me to take it too and I needed oxygen and doctors to come in and check it all out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Johns Hopkins University says “Avoidable Medical Errors” are the third leading cause of death (greater than 250,000 per year) after heart disease and cancer.

“The CDC’s way of collecting national health statistics FAILS to classify medical errors separately on the death certificate.”


Yikes!!!!!

I completely believe it.

~ survived medical error during c-section (you know when you are strapped down to a table…)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Johns Hopkins University says “Avoidable Medical Errors” are the third leading cause of death (greater than 250,000 per year) after heart disease and cancer.

“The CDC’s way of collecting national health statistics FAILS to classify medical errors separately on the death certificate.”


Yikes!!!!!

I completely believe it.

~ survived medical error during c-section (you know when you are strapped down to a table…)

Was your husband there with you?

[Anonymous]

My husband is a doctor, and is mortally afraid of medical errors. He says they are extremely common and rarely reported. There is almost always a cover up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Johns Hopkins University says “Avoidable Medical Errors” are the third leading cause of death (greater than 250,000 per year) after heart disease and cancer.

“The CDC’s way of collecting national health statistics FAILS to classify medical errors separately on the death certificate.”


Yikes!!!!!

Take that with a huge grain of salt.
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)30705-7/fulltext

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Johns Hopkins University says “Avoidable Medical Errors” are the third leading cause of death (greater than 250,000 per year) after heart disease and cancer.

“The CDC’s way of collecting national health statistics FAILS to classify medical errors separately on the death certificate.”


Yikes!!!!!

Take that with a huge grain of salt.
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)30705-7/fulltext

Agree.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking-health/medical-error-not-third-leading-cause-death

In general, medical treatment carries risk. You can have cancer and require surgery which carries known risks including bloodclot, infection, etc., but not having surgery would also mean certain death. If you get in a MVA and require intubation, you can end up with ventilator acquired pneumonia. If you require a central line, you can end up with a central line associated bloodstream infection which could make you septic. If you require a pace maker, you could end up with endocarditis that kills you, but not having the pace maker might kill you faster. If you require a urinary catheter because you can't pee and have a retention issue, you can end up with a UTI that makes you septic, but not having the catheter would also have a detrimental outcomes. If you are already frail and seriously ill, you require major medical care and each intervention carries risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know it's a burden on families, but no one should ever be left in a hospital without someone by their side 24/7.

I had a simple procedure with an IV put in afterwards with medication. The IV somehow started leaking absolutely everywhere under the bed (a valve was left open) and I started convulsing. I'm convinced it would have gone south really quick if DH wasn't there to see it. When they finally hooked my IV up again, the meds were at too high of a dose for me to take it too and I needed oxygen and doctors to come in and check it all out.

Agree. I am the PP whose dad died. We couldn’t be with him 24/7 becusss of covid. Even though it was summer 2021. One of us could see him each day from noon to six. Of course all the doctors rotate through in morning. And you could never get in touch with them.

This also contributed to his death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Naloxone is used to reverse intended or unintended effects of opioids, not just overdoses, such as during sedation. It’s not a big deal.

Agree. It doesn’t mean the hospital was negligent. Sometimes older people are especially sensitive to the effects of opioids. This is why they take vital signs frequently in the hospital and probably saw that his respirations became too depressed. This can happen even if the nurses didn’t make an error and gave the prescribed dose (which was within acceptable parameters).

We don’t know what happened. All I am saying of giving narcan doesn’t necessarily mean anyone made an error

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Naloxone is used to reverse intended or unintended effects of opioids, not just overdoses, such as during sedation. It’s not a big deal.

Agree. It doesn’t mean the hospital was negligent. Sometimes older people are especially sensitive to the effects of opioids. This is why they take vital signs frequently in the hospital and probably saw that his respirations became too depressed. This can happen even if the nurses didn’t make an error and gave the prescribed dose (which was within acceptable parameters).

We don’t know what happened. All I am saying of giving narcan doesn’t necessarily mean anyone made an error

We can see here how drugging people is a crap shoot. They guess what might be the right drug, and then the right amount. How is this constant guessing game considered science?

[Anonymous]

The great news about Narcan is that it has ZERO side effects. You could give someone you *think* OD'd Narcan and even if they didn't have any drugs at all in their system, they'd be fine. I'm glad your dad is OK.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Naloxone is used to reverse intended or unintended effects of opioids, not just overdoses, such as during sedation. It’s not a big deal.

Agree. It doesn’t mean the hospital was negligent. Sometimes older people are especially sensitive to the effects of opioids. This is why they take vital signs frequently in the hospital and probably saw that his respirations became too depressed. This can happen even if the nurses didn’t make an error and gave the prescribed dose (which was within acceptable parameters).

We don’t know what happened. All I am saying of giving narcan doesn’t necessarily mean anyone made an error

We can see here how drugging people is a crap shoot. They guess what might be the right drug, and then the right amount. How is this constant guessing game considered science?

Its science, but not exact.