Isn't gender affirming care just solidifying the gender roles that caused the stuggle?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

+1. I would never dare to say this to anyone IRL, but this is how I feel.

[Anonymous]

I think it's probably true that if society didn't have such rigid ideas about gender roles, there would be fewer people who felt a need to transition. However, we are where we are. We can't snap our fingers and erase gender roles from our society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

+1. I would never dare to say this to anyone IRL, but this is how I feel.

No it isn't. Look, I used to have similar feelings, but there are two issues at play.

One, this mocking feminism angle ignores female to male trans folks AND also ignores the idea of "passing," esp for male to female.

It isn't about wanting to wear crazy feminine clothes or fit stereotypes--it's about putting on the trappings so you can feel and appear [i]feminine.

Many, if not most, trans women tone down the heavy dress and makeup after they have transitioned successfully for a good amount of time and are accepted at face value as female.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a HS teacher, veteran of 15 years, I currently have classes with up to 4 to 5 students identifying as trans, in one classroom. This is up from 1 student in the whole school 14 years ago. I don’t think it’s a problem in any way except for medicalization before 18. The side effects of blockers and hormones are not innocuous and are also not particularly reversible (especially not testosterone). Give it a decade and see how many kids who were given meds before 18 are wishing we had been a little more cautious. Also, look at every other developed country, including pioneers of gender medicine, Denmark, Finland, etc. and you will see they are backing off on medicalization and surgeries for those under 18. The US is a major outlier on this.

Are we sure the US is an outlier? Americans like to say a lot of provoking stuff. But are the numbers of medicalizations and surgeries really high?

No. Someone posted it on an earlier thread the numbers were super tiny.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

Over the last five YEARS

121,882 children ages 6 to 17 were diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
There are ~50 million kids aged 6-17.
0.2% of kids diagnosed

20k kids tarted puberty blockers and/or hormone treatment.
0.04% of kids received treatment

Even if you double or triple those numbers to account for undercounting, it's still just a tiny, tiny fraction of kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is already is a large 'spectrum' for gender.

Young people are not hung up on masculine/feminine stereotypes.

This is not as true as anyone would like it to be.

Boys get a lot of pressure to conform to maleness and male interests in elementary school. If they pursue traditional girl-interests, they are made fun of by peers and often discouraged by adults in their life. Girls are encouraged in this phase of life to explore all the things. If they pursue traditional boy-interests, they are cool, amazing, awesome, and do it proudly. (These are general observations and do not apply to every child on the planet earth.)

The tables turn in middle school/puberty. How attractive the girls and boys are becomes an enormous factor in their lives and how they are treated by peers. It is awful, but boys somehow gain the upper hand in this age range. It completely sucks. What it means for these girls at this age to be a traditionally attractive female as told to them by pop culture and all the signals around them is incredibly daunting and for some pretty unappealing. It's a lot of work to be a woman in this world. And some figure out that they aren't ever going to cut it as being traditionally attractive and they start to fully comprehend what it will mean to be a traditionally unattractive female in our culture.

I have four kids of both genders.

Maybe that's true in more conservative areas, but in our area there isn't nearly as much pressure as there used to be. Boys wearing "girls" clothing or accessories isn't a big deal. Boys doing "girls" sports - not a big deal. The kids don't care at all. Kids switch names almost daily - not a big deal. Kids don't identify with any gender - not a big deal. Kids just do their own thing and the other kids go with it. Maybe the parents have "concerns", but the kids are alright.

But if kids are growing up where these stereotypes are pushed by their conservative parents then there is likely more pressure.

-parent of two kids of different cis-gender kids who both have many friends and family all over the gender spectrum

You don’t have to head far into NoVa, not a “conservative area” for this not to be true.

You live in a bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think parents ok it because the suicide rate is so high for kids with body dysmorphia who don’t get gender affirming care.

A thousand times this. Who wouldn’t do what it takes to keep their kid alive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

+1. I would never dare to say this to anyone IRL, but this is how I feel.

Feminism has nothing to do with being feminine.

Ffs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

+1. I would never dare to say this to anyone IRL, but this is how I feel.

Feminism has nothing to do with being feminine.

Ffs

Rejecting womanhood outright has a lot to do with feminism, or a misunderstanding thereof. Also femininity, but mostly feminism.

[Anonymous]

I think all of you saying that you are liberal but don't understand this "trans" thing and think kids should just be counseled to accept their gender would feel really differently if you had a kid who was suicidal because of their gender dysphoria. It's not like hormone therapy is the first line of treatment when a kid expresses these feelings either. You act like a kid born as female says "I feel like a boy" and they're handed puberty blockers. No doctor is going to provide hormone treatment to a kid who has not already undergone extensive counseling without improvements.

Additionally, if kids were being endangered by receiving gender-affirming care, we'd see worse outcomes for young adults who had received such treatment. That's not the case. There is empirical evidence that this treatment vastly improves mental health outcomes for trans-identifying kids. There is a small but vocal contingent of people on the internet that have de-transitioned, but it's a tiny, tiny percentage of those who have undergone treatment.

I will say there does seem to be a larger contingent of kids who identify as trans or non-binary that seem fine with their bodies and don't desire hormones/puberty-blockers. I feel like those kids are more likely to be going through a phase vs. going to identify as trans or NB forever. But honestly, in that instance, who cares? So what if they don't want to conform to their assigned gender at birth? It really doesn't hurt you or society at all, unless you are someone who believes that it is important for people to stick to gender roles because...God, or something.

[Anonymous]

America does it all wrong with transgender identity.

Third gender is how many indigenous cultures around the world have recognized transgender identities throughout history. And is how those who are transgender identify themselves. They are not female but they are a male body that possesses a female presentation. The third gender people have different names in different cultures.

There is no erasure or dilution of the definition of women in order to conform to the presentation of third gender people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

+1. I would never dare to say this to anyone IRL, but this is how I feel.

Feminism has nothing to do with being feminine.

Ffs

Rejecting womanhood outright has a lot to do with feminism, or a misunderstanding thereof. Also femininity, but mostly feminism.

Being a woman and being feminine are two different things. Feminist has nothing to do with femininity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

+1. I would never dare to say this to anyone IRL, but this is how I feel.

Feminism has nothing to do with being feminine.

Ffs

Rejecting womanhood outright has a lot to do with feminism, or a misunderstanding thereof. Also femininity, but mostly feminism.

Being a woman and being feminine are two different things. Feminist has nothing to do with femininity.

Yes, that's why I separated them.

Feminism means that there a hundred, a thousand, a million ways to be a woman. There's only one way to not be a woman. That's to be a man, including a trans man, or enby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

+1. I would never dare to say this to anyone IRL, but this is how I feel.

Feminism has nothing to do with being feminine.

Ffs

Rejecting womanhood outright has a lot to do with feminism, or a misunderstanding thereof. Also femininity, but mostly feminism.

Being a woman and being feminine are two different things. Feminist has nothing to do with femininity.

Yes, that's why I separated them.

Feminism means that there a hundred, a thousand, a million ways to be a woman. There's only one way to not be a woman. That's to be a man, including a trans man, or enby.

No feminism means genders are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

The problem with discussing this subject is that most people don’t have the most basic understand or definition of words and interchange words that mean different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:America does it all wrong with transgender identity.

Third gender is how many indigenous cultures around the world have recognized transgender identities throughout history. And is how those who are transgender identify themselves. They are not female but they are a male body that possesses a female presentation. The third gender people have different names in different cultures.

There is no erasure or dilution of the definition of women in order to conform to the presentation of third gender people.

In theory.

In practice third genders in multiple cultures have historically been the victims of discrimination and violence.

I get your point that other genders are nothing new and that the US is not inventing the wheel here. But human civilizations were built on procreation to produce agricultural labor, with supposedly traceable lineages to assign inheritable wealth. Any gender other than biologically male or female was always going to have a hard time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think all of you saying that you are liberal but don't understand this "trans" thing and think kids should just be counseled to accept their gender would feel really differently if you had a kid who was suicidal because of their gender dysphoria. It's not like hormone therapy is the first line of treatment when a kid expresses these feelings either. You act like a kid born as female says "I feel like a boy" and they're handed puberty blockers. No doctor is going to provide hormone treatment to a kid who has not already undergone extensive counseling without improvements.

Additionally, if kids were being endangered by receiving gender-affirming care, we'd see worse outcomes for young adults who had received such treatment. That's not the case. There is empirical evidence that this treatment vastly improves mental health outcomes for trans-identifying kids. There is a small but vocal contingent of people on the internet that have de-transitioned, but it's a tiny, tiny percentage of those who have undergone treatment.

I will say there does seem to be a larger contingent of kids who identify as trans or non-binary that seem fine with their bodies and don't desire hormones/puberty-blockers. I feel like those kids are more likely to be going through a phase vs. going to identify as trans or NB forever. But honestly, in that instance, who cares? So what if they don't want to conform to their assigned gender at birth? It really doesn't hurt you or society at all, unless you are someone who believes that it is important for people to stick to gender roles because...God, or something.

Certainly. The point many posters are making is that most "transgender" children today are jumping on the bandwagon as a trend, which is not particularly helpful to those who are truly struggling.