Isn't gender affirming care just solidifying the gender roles that caused the stuggle?

[Anonymous]

Not sure where to put this, but I have found myself in numerous discussions recently and wanted to get perspective of fellow parents outside my day to day circle.
I would love to hear (constructive) feedback and welcome insight that may open my eyes to something I am missing.

The topic has come up in discussions about gender identity and "gender affirming medical care" for patients < 18.
Current guidelines allow for puberty blockers to be started by 16 (sometimes as early as 14) and hormone therapy (only semi-reversible) to be started at 16.

I consider my self to be very open and accepting.
I'm liberal.
I work in a scientific field.
I also have a huge problem with this.

You don't "feel" an ovary. Just like I don't "feel" like I should have gills instead of lungs. I don't "feel" lungs. They are just there.
Sex organs are part of the body. Gender roles are completely made up by society and have nothing to do with biological sex.

Wouldn't a mass push to reduce the rigidity in gender roles be a healthier alternative than solidifying the tie between sex and gender?
Applying the same 'spectrum' to gender as we have to sexuality makes so much more sense to me.
Some people lean very heterosexual, some very homosexual, many (most?) fall somewhere in between.
Why cant we teach our children that some people have very 'masculine' traits/interests/etc, some have very feminine traits/interests/etc. Most fall somewhere in between.

I have three elementary age kids and always introduced all kinds of toys (ex everyone gets dolls and trucks)
I have always offered my son any type of clothes.
I know these are extremely simple examples, but I am trying to teach them that they can be whoever they want, and like whatever they want, no matter what sex they are.

The two older kids have developed traditional gender identities, but if they hadn't, i think my message would be more along the lines of
"you are not a female. you are a biologic male who feels feminine and wears dresses and XZY and that is perfect. You are you. You may decide to make changes later on in adulthood, but for now we are going to work on supporting your growth and development as a human being"
I would also make sure I was adequately addressing their mental health and gender dysmorphia (but not pushing them one way or another).

[Anonymous]

I don't know about the under 18 crowd, but I know a few people who transitioned as adults and it was not a matter of wanting to wear dresses and be feminine. It was a kind of body dysphoria. A person does in fact "feel" body parts, even though you don't, because all your body parts feel like a part of you. But there is a real, documented phenomenon where a person's brain rejects some part of their body - even things like an arm or a leg. Gender dysphoria is this, but with gender. You can't understand it any more than you can understand any other medical condition or feeling you've never had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know about the under 18 crowd, but I know a few people who transitioned as adults and it was not a matter of wanting to wear dresses and be feminine. It was a kind of body dysphoria. A person does in fact "feel" body parts, even though you don't, because all your body parts feel like a part of you. But there is a real, documented phenomenon where a person's brain rejects some part of their body - even things like an arm or a leg. Gender dysphoria is this, but with gender. You can't understand it any more than you can understand any other medical condition or feeling you've never had.

This is my understanding as well based on the trans people I know. Gender dysphoria is not a desire for society to accept a more feminine male or masculine female. That's a good societal goal for other reasons, but for trans people it is more like feeling you're missing a limb your brain thinks you should have.

[Anonymous]

I think instead of crow-sourcing this, you would do better to do some googling. You're off on a few points here that can be clarified by reading a wikipedia page. But I know that it's sort of a pain to go do some research from scratch, so just a few points:

1. Gender roles don't cause somebody to be trans and didn't create body dysmorphia. Trans individuals have been present in all kinds of cultures.

2. people who are in favor of gender-affirming care are not trying to solidify the tie between sex and gender. In fact they are trying to do the opposite.

3. I agree that it's very important to reduce the rigidity in gender roles (actually just get rid of them entirely), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't want to get rid of the idea of gender and gender expression. I for one like expressing myself as a woman, even though I'm not particularly feminine.

[Anonymous]

Yes OP. I was a super intense tom boy and envied that my brothers didn't have to wear dresses for fancy events. These days I would be a kid that might be cued for transition. It was a phase. I also know a few friends who were lesbians for a while. Also a phase. Kids work through stuff--phases. No child should transition. Until they are adults, it should be treated as phases.

[Anonymous]

I think parents ok it because the suicide rate is so high for kids with body dysmorphia who don’t get gender affirming care.

[Anonymous]

Meta analysis on gender affirming care for kids:

1. gender affirming care significantly reduces bad outcomes like suicide, depression, self-harming

2. Puberty blockers and similar treatments are used on cis-gender kids as well, and have largely reversible side effects (or ones that are very complicated to track given the interdependence of hormones and growth at this time). But none outweigh the risk of #1.

3. 85%+ of people who ever transition stay transitioned (and the ones who switch back often cite social factors like "it's too hard to live this way")

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/

[Anonymous]

Gender surgeries are just not happening frequently for teens - it can take years to access that care even as an adult.

https://slate.com/technology/2022/10/top-surgery-teens-gender-affirming-care-hurdles.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know about the under 18 crowd, but I know a few people who transitioned as adults and it was not a matter of wanting to wear dresses and be feminine. It was a kind of body dysphoria. A person does in fact "feel" body parts, even though you don't, because all your body parts feel like a part of you. But there is a real, documented phenomenon where a person's brain rejects some part of their body - even things like an arm or a leg. Gender dysphoria is this, but with gender. You can't understand it any more than you can understand any other medical condition or feeling you've never had.

This is spot on. My cousin transitioned F to M in young adulthood and he would self-injure his breasts before the transition. He absolutely "felt them" and agonized over the fact that they were attached to his body.

[Anonymous]

Yes OP I agree with you. This is making a mockery of feminism, like actual feminism, and of acceptance - actual acceptance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP. I was a super intense tom boy and envied that my brothers didn't have to wear dresses for fancy events. These days I would be a kid that might be cued for transition. It was a phase. I also know a few friends who were lesbians for a while. Also a phase. Kids work through stuff--phases. No child should transition. Until they are adults, it should be treated as phases.

+1. When I was a young girl, I tried to figure out how to pee standing up and I was a total tomboy. I dressed in my brother's clothes. No one said anything to me about it (except my brother, who wanted his clothes back) and eventually the phase passed.

[Anonymous]

There is already is a large 'spectrum' for gender.

Young people are not hung up on masculine/feminine stereotypes.

[Anonymous]

Watch John Oliver on transgender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns8NvPPHX5Y

NSFW: he drops a lot of f-bombs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP. I was a super intense tom boy and envied that my brothers didn't have to wear dresses for fancy events. These days I would be a kid that might be cued for transition. It was a phase. I also know a few friends who were lesbians for a while. Also a phase. Kids work through stuff--phases. No child should transition. Until they are adults, it should be treated as phases.

+1. When I was a young girl, I tried to figure out how to pee standing up and I was a total tomboy. I dressed in my brother's clothes. No one said anything to me about it (except my brother, who wanted his clothes back) and eventually the phase passed.

I don't understand how your experience is relevant. There are still girls who we would consider as "tomboys" who don't want to be boys. These are the not the same people who were born girls but actually want to be boys. And besides, I think this is mostly a made-up problem. By and large, transgender children are just dressing differently, identifying different pronouns/names, etc. In other words, if it's just a phase, that's fine because nothing that can't be undone is happening. I know that sometimes there are more extreme measures taken, but I think that for the vast majority of people, this is only with an older child who seems well beyond 'it's a phase' stage, e.g., they've been living as the other gender for quite some time, express self-hatred for certain body parts, etc. This idea that parents are getting life altering surgery on a whim because their kid said something last week just seems ridiculous to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is already is a large 'spectrum' for gender.

Young people are not hung up on masculine/feminine stereotypes.

This is not as true as anyone would like it to be.

Boys get a lot of pressure to conform to maleness and male interests in elementary school. If they pursue traditional girl-interests, they are made fun of by peers and often discouraged by adults in their life. Girls are encouraged in this phase of life to explore all the things. If they pursue traditional boy-interests, they are cool, amazing, awesome, and do it proudly. (These are general observations and do not apply to every child on the planet earth.)

The tables turn in middle school/puberty. How attractive the girls and boys are becomes an enormous factor in their lives and how they are treated by peers. It is awful, but boys somehow gain the upper hand in this age range. It completely sucks. What it means for these girls at this age to be a traditionally attractive female as told to them by pop culture and all the signals around them is incredibly daunting and for some pretty unappealing. It's a lot of work to be a woman in this world. And some figure out that they aren't ever going to cut it as being traditionally attractive and they start to fully comprehend what it will mean to be a traditionally unattractive female in our culture.

I have four kids of both genders.