Isn't gender affirming care just solidifying the gender roles that caused the stuggle?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know about the under 18 crowd, but I know a few people who transitioned as adults and it was not a matter of wanting to wear dresses and be feminine. It was a kind of body dysphoria. A person does in fact "feel" body parts, even though you don't, because all your body parts feel like a part of you. But there is a real, documented phenomenon where a person's brain rejects some part of their body - even things like an arm or a leg. Gender dysphoria is this, but with gender. You can't understand it any more than you can understand any other medical condition or feeling you've never had.

This is true, and as you say it is true for many different kinds of dysphorias, not just gender. Bodily integrity disorder is also a dysphoria, for example. Patients with BID often report euphoria after limb amputation and in fact sometimes try to amputate limbs themselves. I genuinely do not understand why the treatment regimen is so different for BID versus gender dysphoria (there is certainly no BID-affirming care protocol) but it’s definitely true that dysphoric people “feel” the body parts and that causes true and deep distress.

Wikipedia has a decent overview:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know about the under 18 crowd, but I know a few people who transitioned as adults and it was not a matter of wanting to wear dresses and be feminine. It was a kind of body dysphoria. A person does in fact "feel" body parts, even though you don't, because all your body parts feel like a part of you. But there is a real, documented phenomenon where a person's brain rejects some part of their body - even things like an arm or a leg. Gender dysphoria is this, but with gender. You can't understand it any more than you can understand any other medical condition or feeling you've never had.

Very few trans kids have gender or body dysphoria.

Even for that very small number who do, I'm not sure why this is considered different than other body dysphoria such as anorexia, which is treated, in part, by overcoming or learning to see past/overlook/ignore the body dysphoria rather than affirm it.

[Anonymous]

I agree it seems strange to affirm any particular identity, but obviously this is in response to centuries of forced gender-conformation, in which one's birth gender was affirmed and all alternative lifestyles cast out.

The goal should be to let people be who they want, without any pressure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is already is a large 'spectrum' for gender.

Young people are not hung up on masculine/feminine stereotypes.

This is not as true as anyone would like it to be.

Boys get a lot of pressure to conform to maleness and male interests in elementary school. If they pursue traditional girl-interests, they are made fun of by peers and often discouraged by adults in their life. Girls are encouraged in this phase of life to explore all the things. If they pursue traditional boy-interests, they are cool, amazing, awesome, and do it proudly. (These are general observations and do not apply to every child on the planet earth.)

The tables turn in middle school/puberty. How attractive the girls and boys are becomes an enormous factor in their lives and how they are treated by peers. It is awful, but boys somehow gain the upper hand in this age range. It completely sucks. What it means for these girls at this age to be a traditionally attractive female as told to them by pop culture and all the signals around them is incredibly daunting and for some pretty unappealing. It's a lot of work to be a woman in this world. And some figure out that they aren't ever going to cut it as being traditionally attractive and they start to fully comprehend what it will mean to be a traditionally unattractive female in our culture.

I have four kids of both genders.

Maybe that's true in more conservative areas, but in our area there isn't nearly as much pressure as there used to be. Boys wearing "girls" clothing or accessories isn't a big deal. Boys doing "girls" sports - not a big deal. The kids don't care at all. Kids switch names almost daily - not a big deal. Kids don't identify with any gender - not a big deal. Kids just do their own thing and the other kids go with it. Maybe the parents have "concerns", but the kids are alright.

But if kids are growing up where these stereotypes are pushed by their conservative parents then there is likely more pressure.

-parent of two kids of different cis-gender kids who both have many friends and family all over the gender spectrum

[Anonymous]

Just because gender isn't biological like sex doesn't mean it isn't real. Political parties, religions, money, and all sorts of other things are created by society, not nature, but they are all still real.

I believe gender is real, so I can understand why someone would need to transition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes OP. I was a super intense tom boy and envied that my brothers didn't have to wear dresses for fancy events. These days I would be a kid that might be cued for transition. It was a phase. I also know a few friends who were lesbians for a while. Also a phase. Kids work through stuff--phases. No child should transition. Until they are adults, it should be treated as phases.

I was like this too, and there's no way anyone ever would have thought I could be trans. I was comfortable being a girl, I just didn't want to wear a dress, and I played hard and got dirty. I hated tea parties and typical "girl things" but I didn't want to be a boy.

[Anonymous]

As a HS teacher, veteran of 15 years, I currently have classes with up to 4 to 5 students identifying as trans, in one classroom. This is up from 1 student in the whole school 14 years ago. I don’t think it’s a problem in any way except for medicalization before 18. The side effects of blockers and hormones are not innocuous and are also not particularly reversible (especially not testosterone). Give it a decade and see how many kids who were given meds before 18 are wishing we had been a little more cautious. Also, look at every other developed country, including pioneers of gender medicine, Denmark, Finland, etc. and you will see they are backing off on medicalization and surgeries for those under 18. The US is a major outlier on this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a HS teacher, veteran of 15 years, I currently have classes with up to 4 to 5 students identifying as trans, in one classroom. This is up from 1 student in the whole school 14 years ago. I don’t think it’s a problem in any way except for medicalization before 18. The side effects of blockers and hormones are not innocuous and are also not particularly reversible (especially not testosterone). Give it a decade and see how many kids who were given meds before 18 are wishing we had been a little more cautious. Also, look at every other developed country, including pioneers of gender medicine, Denmark, Finland, etc. and you will see they are backing off on medicalization and surgeries for those under 18. The US is a major outlier on this.

Are we sure the US is an outlier? Americans like to say a lot of provoking stuff. But are the numbers of medicalizations and surgeries really high?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a HS teacher, veteran of 15 years, I currently have classes with up to 4 to 5 students identifying as trans, in one classroom. This is up from 1 student in the whole school 14 years ago. I don’t think it’s a problem in any way except for medicalization before 18. The side effects of blockers and hormones are not innocuous and are also not particularly reversible (especially not testosterone). Give it a decade and see how many kids who were given meds before 18 are wishing we had been a little more cautious. Also, look at every other developed country, including pioneers of gender medicine, Denmark, Finland, etc. and you will see they are backing off on medicalization and surgeries for those under 18. The US is a major outlier on this.

Are we sure the US is an outlier? Americans like to say a lot of provoking stuff. But are the numbers of medicalizations and surgeries really high?

I meant we are an outlier on our recommendations…not making any claims about numbers of surgeries or med prescriptions. The new WPATH care guidelines were just released and they recommend lower age limits than other countries. Meanwhile Denmark, Finland, Sweden and I think the UK have recently changed their recommendations to be more cautious. Again, just for minors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know about the under 18 crowd, but I know a few people who transitioned as adults and it was not a matter of wanting to wear dresses and be feminine. It was a kind of body dysphoria. A person does in fact "feel" body parts, even though you don't, because all your body parts feel like a part of you. But there is a real, documented phenomenon where a person's brain rejects some part of their body - even things like an arm or a leg. Gender dysphoria is this, but with gender. You can't understand it any more than you can understand any other medical condition or feeling you've never had.

Very few trans kids have gender or body dysphoria.

Even for that very small number who do, I'm not sure why this is considered different than other body dysphoria such as anorexia, which is treated, in part, by overcoming or learning to see past/overlook/ignore the body dysphoria rather than affirm it.

It's a little different, since affirming anorexia would mean the person dies of starvation. Also, although I'm not a medical professional, I'm not sure it is the same kind of dysphoria. With gender dysphoria, there has been to date no successful treatment other than transition treatments, and the consequence of forcing a person to live with it is a very high rate of suicide.

[Anonymous]

I kind of think this about identifying as non-binary. Why can’t we broaden what it means to be male or female?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a HS teacher, veteran of 15 years, I currently have classes with up to 4 to 5 students identifying as trans, in one classroom. This is up from 1 student in the whole school 14 years ago. I don’t think it’s a problem in any way except for medicalization before 18. The side effects of blockers and hormones are not innocuous and are also not particularly reversible (especially not testosterone). Give it a decade and see how many kids who were given meds before 18 are wishing we had been a little more cautious. Also, look at every other developed country, including pioneers of gender medicine, Denmark, Finland, etc. and you will see they are backing off on medicalization and surgeries for those under 18. The US is a major outlier on this.

Agree completely with the bolded. I may even go up to 21 - most kids' brains just aren't well-developed enough before then to make decisions with such profound implications.

[Anonymous]

OP thank you for raising this issue. I am also confused about this stuff. I worry that we are encouraging kids to think of themselves as trans rather than ordinary gender non-conforming - like tomboys etc! I feel like it's narrowing our ideas of gender, instead of widening them. But saying this is seen as transphobic to my teens so I just don't say anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a HS teacher, veteran of 15 years, I currently have classes with up to 4 to 5 students identifying as trans, in one classroom. This is up from 1 student in the whole school 14 years ago. I don’t think it’s a problem in any way except for medicalization before 18. The side effects of blockers and hormones are not innocuous and are also not particularly reversible (especially not testosterone). Give it a decade and see how many kids who were given meds before 18 are wishing we had been a little more cautious. Also, look at every other developed country, including pioneers of gender medicine, Denmark, Finland, etc. and you will see they are backing off on medicalization and surgeries for those under 18. The US is a major outlier on this.

Are we sure the US is an outlier? Americans like to say a lot of provoking stuff. But are the numbers of medicalizations and surgeries really high?

No. Someone posted it on an earlier thread the numbers were super tiny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I kind of think this about identifying as non-binary. Why can’t we broaden what it means to be male or female?

Kids already have.