Do you think the costs of professional school (med, law, dental etc) are unsustainable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:one other thing to consider is a that student is giving up at least 8 and maybe 12 years of compounded interest. if a student were to start working and saving at age 30-32 vs. age 22. he or she will miss out on saving for those years plus the magic of compounded interest.

Is the plumber or the doctor wealthier at 42? Who knows.

Doctor

https://www.wealthmeta.com/blog/being-a-plumber-vs-being-a-doctor-net-worth-simulations

I don’t disagree but the following seems low for medical school nowadays:

The next step is medical school, which takes four years and leaves students with, on average, $183,000 in student loan debt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The key to graduate schools is going to in-state or public state schools where the costs are paid largely by the state which reduces the costs for tuition. Once the degree is completed, then go to private universities for internships, fellowships, or graduate teaching assistants reduces your costs and increases your teaching experiences.

Maybe for grad school, but not for professional school (med, law dental MBA).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The student must choose wisely. And then the student must spend wisely after graduating, paying down the debt as quickly as possible, avoid being trapped by the "golden handcuffs."

I attended a T14, borrowed it all, and paid it off in a few years in BigLaw. No regrets. My general opinion is T14-or-bust, and that has been my advice to my kids. (Sure, for some people, lower rank on a giant scholarship may make sense, if they intend to practice local to the law school - depends on what the person's goal is. But to have one's career options wide open, then T14.)

Actually, the reality is top 7 or so. Forget about the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The student must choose wisely. And then the student must spend wisely after graduating, paying down the debt as quickly as possible, avoid being trapped by the "golden handcuffs."

I attended a T14, borrowed it all, and paid it off in a few years in BigLaw. No regrets. My general opinion is T14-or-bust, and that has been my advice to my kids. (Sure, for some people, lower rank on a giant scholarship may make sense, if they intend to practice local to the law school - depends on what the person's goal is. But to have one's career options wide open, then T14.)

Actually, the reality is top 7 or so. Forget about the rest.

Why is that? Cornell and Duke have some of the best BL % of any school in the country (Cornell is currently #1 at over 80% big law and federal clerkships).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The student must choose wisely. And then the student must spend wisely after graduating, paying down the debt as quickly as possible, avoid being trapped by the "golden handcuffs."

I attended a T14, borrowed it all, and paid it off in a few years in BigLaw. No regrets. My general opinion is T14-or-bust, and that has been my advice to my kids. (Sure, for some people, lower rank on a giant scholarship may make sense, if they intend to practice local to the law school - depends on what the person's goal is. But to have one's career options wide open, then T14.)

Actually, the reality is top 7 or so. Forget about the rest.

Do mean the M7 for MBAs?

[Anonymous]

Here is an article listing the "Go To" law schools for Big Law Hiring-

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/the-best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2022/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is an article listing the "Go To" law schools for Big Law Hiring-

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/the-best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2022/

Here is the ranking from the latest ABA employment reports:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/u4nyvc/uashelovers_co_2021_blfc_employment_rankings/

[Anonymous]

The MBA appears to be completely oversaturated due to the proliferation of online MBAs, EMBAs, and 1-year MBAs.

[Anonymous]

Unsustainable? Not sure about that because there’s always someone who is willing and able to pay. We paid for two adult kids education (1 med and 1 pharmacy school) and they are EXPENSIVE for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unsustainable? Not sure about that because there’s always someone [/b]who is willing and able to pay.[b] We paid for two adult kids education (1 med and 1 pharmacy school) and they are EXPENSIVE for sure.

Yes, there are. There’s always people willing and “able” to pay with six-figure undischargeable grad plus loans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unsustainable? Not sure about that because there’s always someone who is willing and able to pay. We paid for two adult kids education (1 med and 1 pharmacy school) and they are EXPENSIVE for sure.

I don’t know if your child has been affected by this but Matt Stoller’s exposés on CVS’s pharmacy monopoly and it’s impact on pharmacist working conditions is crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. Just as an example, there is a serious shortage of vets. My DD is a junior in college and has been taking a pre-vet curriculum and has done well academically. She worked at a vet’s office in high school and it is all she has ever wanted to do, but after a ton of research and discussions with practicing vets, she is pivoting to considering other paths because the debt to income ratio is terrifying. We saved and were able to put her through college without borrowing any money, and are not low income enough that she could qualify for any kind of need based grants, but we can’t help her further because we have to ensure our retirement savings are secure. I’m sad for her of course, but the societal impacts of this playing out across a lot of professions are profound.

That’s very interesting. I didn’t know that. My dentist has horrible student debt at a high rate of interest. I knew also about the obscene cost of law school. I didn’t know about vets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes. The market cannot sustain it. At least in law, I can't speak to the others.

Right now a big part of the conversation around student debt forgiveness is the idea that we shouldn't forgive the debt of "high paid professionals" because it's like giving these degrees away. But I personally know a number of law school graduates who have never really benefitted financially from those degrees (both people who went to well known and respected schools and some who went to what could be considered diploma mills) and still owe astronomical amounts of money. And the jobs just are not there for them. Especially people who graduated into that down market in 2008/2010 -- some of these folks had decent grades from good law schools but graduated when law firms were deleveraging and many major government employers (including the entire state of California) had extended hiring freezes due to budget shortfalls). They wound up doing doc review as contract attorneys and taking law-adjacent jobs that didn't really reward them for their JDs or bar membership. And by the time the market recovered, they were 6-7 years out of law school and it's very hard to work your way back from that. Taking out 100k (sometimes more) in debt for a career like that is absolutely devastating. I know someone who committed suicide in this situation. Obviously he had serious mental health issues as well, but there is no question that crushing debt and limited job prospects played a big role in what happened.

And I went to law school almost 20 years ago. It's more expensive now. It's a different market with more demand, but outside of a narrow sliver of the market (Big Law associate salaries) the salaries do not justify the cost. Many firms have moved to hiring more staff attorneys and contract lawyers (who make less than associates and, importantly, have no path to counsel or partner roles) as they have re-leveraged with increased demand. It's good for firms but not for freshly minted law graduates.

I have come to think of a law degree as a very, very expensive lottery ticket. If you win, you win very big. But you are very unlikely to win. And unlike the lottery, it's not really chance either. It's going to be dictated by law school grades and connections. Most people entering law school won't get the grades they need (there's a curve, this is by design and definition) and very few have the necessary connections, to make money.

The one path that still makes sense is committing to public interest law and receiving debt forgiveness. But my understanding is that this has actually been quite hard until recently, and even now it's challenging even for those who have spent their entire careers in public interest roles. This should be more straightforward. There is also some weirdness here. All government jobs are considered public interest, but some of these jobs pay close to 200k a year and the relationship to public interest is loose (SEC lawyers technically work for the government but really only technically). It's weird to see debt forgiveness for those jobs but not for someone who has simply struggled to find decent-paying legal work in the private sector.

Thank you for this. I’m sending it to my son who is weighing his options about law schools. I went more than 30 years ago when it was $6k and easily handled with student loans (which I was paying off until 35 but it was a small amount) and summer associate pay. The same law school is now $105k per year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is an article listing the "Go To" law schools for Big Law Hiring-

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/03/the-best-law-schools-for-getting-a-biglaw-job-2022/

x100000

And the bottom of the barrel for law schools (ie: "don't even bother"):

https://testmaxprep.com/blog/lsat/easiest-law-schools-to-get-into

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The one path that still makes sense is committing to public interest law and receiving debt forgiveness. But my understanding is that this has actually been quite hard until recently, and even now it's challenging even for those who have spent their entire careers in public interest roles. This should be more straightforward. There is also some weirdness here. All government jobs are considered public interest, but some of these jobs pay close to 200k a year and the relationship to public interest is loose (SEC lawyers technically work for the government but really only technically). It's weird to see debt forgiveness for those jobs but not for someone who has simply struggled to find decent-paying legal work in the private sector.

Public interest law arguably makes no financial sense even with debt forgiveness programs (which mean taxpayers are paying for those students' educations; there's no free lunch). That is because of the opportunity costs involved in spending three years in law school instead of earning, saving, and investing money. A relatively low-paid post-law school job coupled with three years of no earnings while in law school will leave those lawyers financially worse off than if they had acquired other professional or vocational qualifications and gone into the workforce and began earning after high school, community college, or undergraduate school