Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

How do you figure that? Homosexuality and gender non-conforming individuals were known to exist in pre-colonial Americas. Plato and Aristotle have written about it. It has been written about and practiced in China, Japan, and India. Heck, there are (or were, pre-introduction to Christianity) entire cultures where homosexuality was the norm/celebrated, in the South Pacific Islands.

I’m speaking of Western civilization because that is the culture I, and presumably most of us, live in. Plato and Aristotle wrote about men who performed the homosexual act, but even back then, men were generally expected to marry women and rear children with them, and ultimately “grow up” out of the habit lest he be seen as effeminate in a highly martial (and at the time pagan, not Christian) culture. The identityas it exists today (out of the closet, so to speak) is very recent, in fact, homosexuality was not removed from the DSM-IV until circa the 1970s.

You made no such distinction. Your contention is that god made man and woman, created sex, yadda yadda, and that the gay identity is a modern cultural creation. Gay people have always existed, as far as we can tell, it's not a modern cultural creation. Just because they existed and were not reviled in places you're unfamiliar with, doesn't mean that they didn't exist, just that you didn't know about it, and therefore your contention that it's a modern cultural creation is incorrect.

Men were expected to father children to carry on their lineage. It did not mean that they had to grow up, or otherwise stop being gay. In Greece specifically, many of the relationships were between older men, men presumably with families, and younger ones.

Okay you win. People have violated God’s law of nature since the garden. I stand corrected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

How do you figure that? Homosexuality and gender non-conforming individuals were known to exist in pre-colonial Americas. Plato and Aristotle have written about it. It has been written about and practiced in China, Japan, and India. Heck, there are (or were, pre-introduction to Christianity) entire cultures where homosexuality was the norm/celebrated, in the South Pacific Islands.

Also how could an entire culture(s) exist where homosexuality is the norm? They’d literally cease to exist after a generation. In theory, bisexuality would be the norm there which speaks to another facet of nature—there is no “pure” homosexual. If you put a man and a woman alone in a room for long enough, nature will take over, even if they say they’re not sexually interested in the opposite sex.

The one I remember reading about (I forget the name of the tribe), boys are separated from mothers and women in general (who are considered unclean) at a young age, and brought up with men. At some point, they do get to have sex with women for procreation only (because that's unclean), but they continue to live with men. There are also others where ritualized homosexuality is practiced until the boy is old enough for heterosexuality, and they they're expected to remain that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

How do you figure that? Homosexuality and gender non-conforming individuals were known to exist in pre-colonial Americas. Plato and Aristotle have written about it. It has been written about and practiced in China, Japan, and India. Heck, there are (or were, pre-introduction to Christianity) entire cultures where homosexuality was the norm/celebrated, in the South Pacific Islands.

Also how could an entire culture(s) exist where homosexuality is the norm? They’d literally cease to exist after a generation. In theory, bisexuality would be the norm there which speaks to another facet of nature—there is no “pure” homosexual. If you put a man and a woman alone in a room for long enough, nature will take over, even if they say they’re not sexually interested in the opposite sex.

The one I remember reading about (I forget the name of the tribe), boys are separated from mothers and women in general (who are considered unclean) at a young age, and brought up with men. At some point, they do get to have sex with women for procreation only (because that's unclean), but they continue to live with men. There are also others where ritualized homosexuality is practiced until the boy is old enough for heterosexuality, and they they're expected to remain that way.

Yeah so it sounds like in those cultures that is environmentally influenced social behavior rather than 100% of the boys in the culture are born that way because that’s just how they were made by nature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

How do you figure that? Homosexuality and gender non-conforming individuals were known to exist in pre-colonial Americas. Plato and Aristotle have written about it. It has been written about and practiced in China, Japan, and India. Heck, there are (or were, pre-introduction to Christianity) entire cultures where homosexuality was the norm/celebrated, in the South Pacific Islands.

Also how could an entire culture(s) exist where homosexuality is the norm? They’d literally cease to exist after a generation. In theory, bisexuality would be the norm there which speaks to another facet of nature—there is no “pure” homosexual. If you put a man and a woman alone in a room for long enough, nature will take over, even if they say they’re not sexually interested in the opposite sex.

The one I remember reading about (I forget the name of the tribe), boys are separated from mothers and women in general (who are considered unclean) at a young age, and brought up with men. At some point, they do get to have sex with women for procreation only (because that's unclean), but they continue to live with men. There are also others where ritualized homosexuality is practiced until the boy is old enough for heterosexuality, and they they're expected to remain that way.

Sex with a woman is considered unclean, but sex with another man is not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

How do you figure that? Homosexuality and gender non-conforming individuals were known to exist in pre-colonial Americas. Plato and Aristotle have written about it. It has been written about and practiced in China, Japan, and India. Heck, there are (or were, pre-introduction to Christianity) entire cultures where homosexuality was the norm/celebrated, in the South Pacific Islands.

Also how could an entire culture(s) exist where homosexuality is the norm? They’d literally cease to exist after a generation. In theory, bisexuality would be the norm there which speaks to another facet of nature—there is no “pure” homosexual. If you put a man and a woman alone in a room for long enough, nature will take over, even if they say they’re not sexually interested in the opposite sex.

The one I remember reading about (I forget the name of the tribe), boys are separated from mothers and women in general (who are considered unclean) at a young age, and brought up with men. At some point, they do get to have sex with women for procreation only (because that's unclean), but they continue to live with men. There are also others where ritualized homosexuality is practiced until the boy is old enough for heterosexuality, and they they're expected to remain that way.

Sex with a woman is considered unclean, but sex with another man is not?

Yes. This is more an impression than memory, but I think it’s because intercourse involves the vagina, which bleeds and is considered unclean, and sex with a man is fellatio, and something about sperm being the source of strength? They had cleansing rituals around heterosexual sex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

How do you figure that? Homosexuality and gender non-conforming individuals were known to exist in pre-colonial Americas. Plato and Aristotle have written about it. It has been written about and practiced in China, Japan, and India. Heck, there are (or were, pre-introduction to Christianity) entire cultures where homosexuality was the norm/celebrated, in the South Pacific Islands.

Also how could an entire culture(s) exist where homosexuality is the norm? They’d literally cease to exist after a generation. In theory, bisexuality would be the norm there which speaks to another facet of nature—there is no “pure” homosexual. If you put a man and a woman alone in a room for long enough, nature will take over, even if they say they’re not sexually interested in the opposite sex.

The one I remember reading about (I forget the name of the tribe), boys are separated from mothers and women in general (who are considered unclean) at a young age, and brought up with men. At some point, they do get to have sex with women for procreation only (because that's unclean), but they continue to live with men. There are also others where ritualized homosexuality is practiced until the boy is old enough for heterosexuality, and they they're expected to remain that way.

Yeah so it sounds like in those cultures that is environmentally influenced social behavior rather than 100% of the boys in the culture are born that way because that’s just how they were made by nature.

Probably. The men are given the option of staying straight, but usually go back to the men. Kind of how gay people pretend to be straight because of societal pressures, I imagine, just reversed. Which is not to say that everyone is straight, just that there must be some at least.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are homosexual natures created by nurture, nature, or God?

I think the answer is is quite important as it would show us the cause/source of homosexuality.

If God, as believers think, then why is God creating gays?

Regards
DL

It’s nature. I do think we are all born with a wide spectrum of sexual attraction that is narrowed by our experiences (nurture).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

Then what was the gay culture Paul wrote about so much? He was fairly obsessed with it, so it must have been a big thing at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

Then what was the gay culture Paul wrote about so much? He was fairly obsessed with it, so it must have been a big thing at the time.

They certainly weren’t having pride parades and “getting married” to raise children together. Also, wasn’t obsessed. He condemned all versions of sinful lives—fornicators, cheaters, drunks, idolaters, and so forth.

[Anonymous]

What are the historical gay societies in the South Pacific being mentioned?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God. Because God creates all things including gay humans (and penguins). But I’m Episcopalian so I also don’t think homosexuality is a sin.

But some conservative Episcopalians think homosexuality is a sin and the institutional church used to think it was a sin. Thus, it seems that simply being Episcopalian is not reason for anyone not being anti-gay.

Then those Episcopalians can explain their (confused and contradictory) theology to OP. Most of us are pretty comfortable with the doctrine of a church and that doesn’t insist we go around hating people.

[Anonymous]

My theory, having extended family members who do not have offspring of their own helps ensure the survival of the young in the family group. Gay extended family members might be less likely to reproduce, freeing them to focus on nieces and nephews for example instead of dedicating resources to their own offspring.

I read somewhere that first born children are more likely to be straight, and subsequent children more likely to be gay.

So I think it's nature/evolution and you can see the hand of God in nature/evolution if you like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

so for you, only the act of sexual intercourse is sex? So oral sex isn’t sex in your opinion? Using toys with each other isn’t sex? Having an orgasm with another person isn’t sex?

Correct. Those acts are no more sex than a man orgasming via nocturnal emission is sex or pouring a soda down my ear canal constitutes the act of drinking.

So Bill Clinton wasn't lying?

[Anonymous]

Given that people have been gay since there have been people, and the reported experiences of gay people, I think it's mostly genetics, although environment might shape how those genetics are experienced and expressed. Some animals are known to engage in same-sex activity, as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God created man and woman; God created sex.

Only a man and a woman can use their generative organs for sex. What two men and two women do together is not sex. It is an act where the organs of generation/excretion are misused. Also, environmental factors combined with certain qualities of personality lead an individual to inappropriately “sexualize” the healthy and normal affection between persons of the same sex.

The gay “identity” is a modern (post 1700s) cultural creation centered around the imperfection. God created everything, but the fall of man gave us our tendency towards imperfection and misuse of our nature. We’re all sinners in some way, this is just another way. Straight people sin all the time too.

so for you, only the act of sexual intercourse is sex? So oral sex isn’t sex in your opinion? Using toys with each other isn’t sex? Having an orgasm with another person isn’t sex?

Correct. Those acts are no more sex than a man orgasming via nocturnal emission is sex or pouring a soda down my ear canal constitutes the act of drinking.

So Bill Clinton wasn't lying?