On the subject of purebred dogs

[Anonymous]

There's just no reason to deliberately breed any dog- or design a new dog by breeding. None.

Shouldn't be for any profit, or for hobby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's just no reason to deliberately breed any dog- or design a new dog by breeding. None.

Shouldn't be for any profit, or for hobby.

Uh, the reason is that people want dogs for pets and if we don't breed them there won't be any except the accidents (which I think most people can agree is going to create less stellar results) A trainer friend posted this on facebook recently:

We hear a lot about overpopulation in dogs. It’s why responsible pet owners are encouraged to spay and neuter their dogs!
But what do the numbers say?

* Currently there are about 77-88 million dogs in the US. (sources: AVMA 2017-2018 Pet Ownership and Demographics survey https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/resources/AVMA-Pet-Demographics-Executive-Summary.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3Pz1Y1qycaezeL4wnkRlkS1mGrEIxB6Moh02HJr3z09AbSGT-dIn-OdCk and APPA annual 2017-2018 National Pet Owners survey https://www.mceldrewyoung.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2017-2018-Pet-Survey.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3aD6CWFY8Z6TiucMhy5ZwXXrC6KytPKGNe-v9C0OYs3YJ0XK_i3BfbSrk).

* The annual replacement rate of dogs is somewhere around 8 million per year. (sources: APPA and AVMA surveys above, https://todaysveterinarybusiness.com/looming-dog-shortage/

* Not counting those returned to owners or transferred, around 3.4 million dogs enter shelters annually (source: Mississippi State University College of Veterinary Medicine and MSU Center for Social Science Research survey https://www.msstate.edu/newsroom/article/2017/02/msu-college-veterinary-medicine-researchers-complete-canine-shelter?fbclid=IwAR1hUiTzWfOdcyiqPffH5jR8IFP_6NTENDNnkiIt09tmlMxVLduVyWhm0wg).

* Around 1 million dogs are rehomed privately each year (source: ASPCA study by Weiss et al 2015 http://www.speakingforspot.com/PDF/OJAS_2015100914300959.pdf).

* AKC breeders produce somewhere around 1.3 million dogs each year (source: Mark Dunn, from 2017 data: https://puredogtalk.com/podcast/akc-dog-registration-trend-reversal/?fbclid=IwAR2o7yfJ0-StktVhd2aS6zdbd7ffBg7zxY587Sv5ONzMifBGU6IIOJE7LcE)

What does this mean?
Let's assume that every dog that enters shelters is medically and behaviorally adoptable (which we all know not to be the case, but it allows for conservative estimates). Between shelter/rescue dogs and those who are rehomed privately, we can currently provide about 55% of the dogs needed each year.

So, where do the other 3.6 million dogs come from?

Some come from responsible breeders of purebred dogs who are dedicated to their breed. Let's assume that every dog that is registered through the AKC is produced by what we would consider a responsible breeder, who is committed to health, temperament, and early socialization (which we all know not to be the case, but it allows for conservative estimates). Purebred, responsibly-created dogs would account for 16.25% of of the dogs needed each year.
That *still* leaves 2.3 million dogs needed each year, at the most conservative.

Realistically, my personal opinion is that this number is closer to **4.2 million**, allowing for euthanasia of dogs in shelters/rescues due to medical or behavioral issues, as well as discounting the number of irresponsible breeders of purebred dogs (BYB, puppy mills) whom we'd like to put out of business.
This is why I feel so strongly that purpose-bred pet dogs need to be produced by responsible breeders who select for temperament(!) and health (including relevant health testing) and who raise their puppies in the home with appropriate socialization and developmental programs.

Overpopulation is absolutely still an issue *in some areas of the US.* But there are also dog shortages in many, many other areas (such as here in Minnesota, where we’re having to transport the vast majority of our adoptable dogs in from out of state or out of the country). We’ve spayed and neutered most of the nice pet dogs. The population of dogs that we see as trainers is evolving because we as a society are literally removing the nicest pets from the gene pool.

As a trainer, I see it in the people who come to my basic pet obedience classes. 20 years ago, there were a lot less behavioral problems. Now, every class requires someone behind a barrier because their dog is too reactive to function with other dogs in the room, many that can't take treats because they are too stressed being out in public, almost all shepherds have hip dysplasia, most pugs can barely breathe, etc. There are still lots and lots of nice dogs, but they are getting rarer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ohhh we love our Pug from a BYB. He is adorable and since the pandemic we got another one from the same breeder. Love them. Great dogs and no health issues.

Suck it OP.

I'm not going to tell OP to suck it but I agree. We got our poodle from a breeder at 8 weeks. We've had him for over two years and he's perfectly healthy and well-behaved. We checked the shelters but they just had pit mixes and larger dogs. I'd go the reputable breeder route again. No regrets at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ohhh we love our Pug from a BYB. He is adorable and since the pandemic we got another one from the same breeder. Love them. Great dogs and no health issues.

Suck it OP.

I'm not going to tell OP to suck it but I agree. We got our poodle from a breeder at 8 weeks. We've had him for over two years and he's perfectly healthy and well-behaved. We checked the shelters but they just had pit mixes and larger dogs. I'd go the reputable breeder route again. No regrets at all.

Who was the breeder?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is why I feel so strongly that purpose-bred pet dogs need to be produced by responsible breeders who select for temperament(!) and health (including relevant health testing) and who raise their puppies in the home with appropriate socialization and developmental programs.

Overpopulation is absolutely still an issue *in some areas of the US.* But there are also dog shortages in many, many other areas (such as here in Minnesota, where we’re having to transport the vast majority of our adoptable dogs in from out of state or out of the country). We’ve spayed and neutered most of the nice pet dogs. The population of dogs that we see as trainers is evolving because we as a society are literally removing the nicest pets from the gene pool.

As a trainer, I see it in the people who come to my basic pet obedience classes. 20 years ago, there were a lot less behavioral problems. Now, every class requires someone behind a barrier because their dog is too reactive to function with other dogs in the room, many that can't take treats because they are too stressed being out in public, almost all shepherds have hip dysplasia, most pugs can barely breathe, etc. There are still lots and lots of nice dogs, but they are getting rarer.

This is absolutely one major part of it, and a strong argument for responsible, limited breeding by people who do it for the love of the dogs, not for profit. Another major component of the problem is the rise of trendy "breeds" (goldendoodle, etc) and people who don't know enough about dogs to differentiate between a reputable breeder and one who is just out for profit and taking advantage of demand. These are the people that dump their trendy dog in a shelter because they selected for size or some made-up thing like "hypoallergenic" and got a dog with a temperament that they couldn't handle. The final major problem is the increasing trendiness of 'rescue dogs', which makes it easier for group two to ditch an animal they had no business getting in the first place ("well, someone will take him and give him a good home").

[Anonymous]

Breeding is the reason for so many health issues, and serious mutations causing cancers, such as hemangiosarcoma. It's rare to find a golden retriever outlive about 4 cancers. Now it's also many other breeds.

Don't flatter yourselves with your purebred BS. There's a mutt for everyone who wants a dog.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Breeding is the reason for so many health issues, and serious mutations causing cancers, such as hemangiosarcoma. It's rare to find a golden retriever outlive about 4 cancers. Now it's also many other breeds.

Don't flatter yourselves with your purebred BS. There's a mutt for everyone who wants a dog.

So what is your suggestion to provide the number and type of dog everyone wants? Because read these threads. People want doodles and Goldens and tiny dogs.

Do I think the golden stud book should be reopened to outcrosses for a while? Absolutely. Same with Dobermans and cavaliers and every other health issue prone breed. I don’t think purebred is the answer to everything, but the “responsibly bred” and “purebred” Venn diagram definitely has an overlapping region.

[Anonymous]

My dog came from a so-called backyard breeder. Owner bred very occasionally as a small side hustle, and mom and the puppies were house-raised. I've kept in touch with the owners of my dog's siblings, and they are all healthy, sweet, friendly, social.
I tried to adopt, looking for almost a year. There simply weren't any medium-sized young dogs that didn't have behavior or health issues. I wanted a companion, not a charitable project.

[Anonymous]

Our little gal, 2 years old, came from a small reputable breeder. Breeder doesn’t release puppies until 10 weeks at the earliest so the pups can be trained by mama and socialize. We picked her up at 12 weeks. By the 6 months mark, after all of the agreed shots and surgeries are done, breeder submitted our info to AKC. Official paperwork arrived shortly after. Breeder will also take back any dogs at any age. All puppies live with the mom and sibling in the house. Yes her house smelled like dogs but that is ok by me.

We met mama and papa as well as the siblings. We got to picked our baby from the litter by sitting and observing the available puppies. All of them were friendly and outgoing, not agitated or aggressive. And guess what, our little one had the best temperament. She is playful when my kids are home from school, but also loves to just sit on the floor next to me while I work. Not a picky eater and potty trained easily. She loves all the neighborhood dogs and kids. She is also not a barker nor anxious. We love her to pieces. Absolutely thinking about getting another one from the same breeder.

[Anonymous]

It is true, IMO, that the downside of overall success of campaigns to neuter dogs simply means the choice in mutts (we had mutts when I was a kid, and the dogs I had when I was a younger adult were mutts) is not what it was years ago. We also did not have the designer "breed" thing going on. Not saying people shouldn't neuter, like anything generally a good idea, there's also something we lose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Breeding is the reason for so many health issues, and serious mutations causing cancers, such as hemangiosarcoma. It's rare to find a golden retriever outlive about 4 cancers. Now it's also many other breeds.

Don't flatter yourselves with your purebred BS. There's a mutt for everyone who wants a dog.

So what is your suggestion to provide the number and type of dog everyone wants? Because read these threads. People want doodles and Goldens and tiny dogs.

Do I think the golden stud book should be reopened to outcrosses for a while? Absolutely. Same with Dobermans and cavaliers and every other health issue prone breed. I don’t think purebred is the answer to everything, but the “responsibly bred” and “purebred” Venn diagram definitely has an overlapping region.

Nope. Breeding needs to stop. Period. There is no dog that is responsibly bred, it's a for- profit deal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Breeding is the reason for so many health issues, and serious mutations causing cancers, such as hemangiosarcoma. It's rare to find a golden retriever outlive about 4 cancers. Now it's also many other breeds.

Don't flatter yourselves with your purebred BS. There's a mutt for everyone who wants a dog.

So what is your suggestion to provide the number and type of dog everyone wants? Because read these threads. People want doodles and Goldens and tiny dogs.

Do I think the golden stud book should be reopened to outcrosses for a while? Absolutely. Same with Dobermans and cavaliers and every other health issue prone breed. I don’t think purebred is the answer to everything, but the “responsibly bred” and “purebred” Venn diagram definitely has an overlapping region.

Easy. Stop wanting a specific type of dog. Stop requesting certain this or that. Where's the problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Breeding is the reason for so many health issues, and serious mutations causing cancers, such as hemangiosarcoma. It's rare to find a golden retriever outlive about 4 cancers. Now it's also many other breeds.

Don't flatter yourselves with your purebred BS. There's a mutt for everyone who wants a dog.

So what is your suggestion to provide the number and type of dog everyone wants? Because read these threads. People want doodles and Goldens and tiny dogs.

Do I think the golden stud book should be reopened to outcrosses for a while? Absolutely. Same with Dobermans and cavaliers and every other health issue prone breed. I don’t think purebred is the answer to everything, but the “responsibly bred” and “purebred” Venn diagram definitely has an overlapping region.

Nope. Breeding needs to stop. Period. There is no dog that is responsibly bred, it's a for- profit deal.

So if I want a family dog with a nice temperament I am supposed to accept a rescue dog that is the result of irresponsible people not spaying and neutering pit bulls. No thank you. I love my backyard breeder dog. I got to choose the size of dog I wanted, met the mother and father dogs, and got to raise my dog from a a puppy.

[Anonymous]

I've had four rescue dogs and I can't wait to get a lab puppy from a breeder next time.

I've never met a rescue dog without some sort of difficult issues, from severe anxiety to aggression.

[Anonymous]

People were happy to go to the shelter and adopt a mutt when they were nice family mutts. No one wants a pitbull bred by some drug dealer and raised in chaos. No one. I honestly thought that when covid happened our society would quit wasting time and money on nonsense like unadoptable animals but they seem to have doubled down.