Jen Hatmaker

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't think we were here to argue about doctrine, gay marriage, etc. What I find incredibly destructive and shallow is the attitude on Jens part that "Oh, I changed my mind on this issue because of deep, intense Biblical study ( and also because my daughter is gay) , and now everyone who still thinks like I did last week is hateful, anti Jesus, ad infinitum....

It's really the new puritanism. And less believable from someone who sells stuff in between snippets of politically correct instruction.

This is why I call Jen the totalitarian social media influencer. Not only are we told what to wear, what to buy, how to vacation, how to cook, how to do ( or undo) marriage, but we are told what we should think and believe. Total conformity. That's where she is dangerous. The Pioneer Woman sells a lifestyle, good recipes, and a darn good restaurant in Oklahoma. There is no litmus test of political or religious belief to get in. All are welcome.

This is not true, though. She didn’t have a scorched earth mentality about people who were not yet affirming. The text of her Facebook post can be found here: https://nerdywordybirdy.blog/2016/11/11/discussion-lifeways-decision-to-pull-jen-hatmakers-products/ and the most she does is encourage people to think about the real-life LGBTQ+ people who will read their comments and responses. She’s quite gracious. I can’t find it at the moment, but she also explicitly said “To those still wrestling with issue, I affirm your good will.”

Of course she became angrier at injustice between 2016 and now. That’s the case for a lot of us who feel like our faith communities abandoned the teachings and example of Jesus for political expediency.

As for “all being welcome,” check out the paradox of tolerance. The position of denying basic human rights to whole groups of people literally can’t be tolerated if one’s goal is equality and dignity. It’s okay to be intolerant of intolerance. Where people are honestly learning and growing about an issue, it should be done with love and some sense of patience, yes. But not complacency to injustice.

Honest question here, I promise. I do not mean this as a “gotcha” or argumentative in any way. I’m just seeking to learn more.
You stated here that basic human rights are being denied to whole groups of people. I assume you are referring to LGBTQ based on the thread. Re-reading through the comments, it seems like the issue being debated is whether or not this is considered a “sin”. For those with a traditional, biblical belief system, I think the answer is yes. So the basic human right being denied is - whether or not someone thinks someone else is going to heaven (or hell)? I’m genuinely confused. It seems as though the demand here is for people to alter their personal beliefs to assure someone else is “ok”. It seems strange. I consider myself a “sinner”. Whether or not you believe I am going to heaven (or hell) is of no consequence to me.

There are a few ways to look at this. The larger issue is lack of separation of church and state. Many people who didn’t want to support Trump did so because he promised to further blur these lines. On a more individual level, the way church leaders, parents, grandparents, ect… feel, express, and respond to LGBTQ people and issues has an immediate and often profound impact on the LGBTQ people in their lives. It’s harmful. LGBTQ youth are four times more likely to attempt suicide than their peers. I appreciate the ways in which Jen has addressed this—personally and politically. I think she damages her image with the incessant sales pitches and over sharing about her love life and, to an extent, parenting (or lack thereof).

Thank you for your kind replies to this question. For the human rights response, it sounds like there is nothing actually being denied, correct? A bill to codify same sex marriage recently passed the House and should (I would assume) overwhelmingly pass in the Senate. Since adoption rights follow marriage rights, this should protect same sex adoption rights as well. I'm under the impression (maybe I'm wrong here?) that trans-affirming care is legal and available to adults? If the issue is the denial of care to children - I don't think that's a religious issue. I think that's a child protection issue. I would absolutely argue that children do not have the cognitive ability to get a tattoo, let alone a voluntary mastectomy. But this probably isn't the thread for that.

As for the personal responses, I agree that Jen responded as a mother, and I would never fault her for that. But what of pastors? You said a pastor's response would have a profound affect. What, then, should a pastor of a traditional, Biblical church do? If a person came to their church, spoke with the pastor, and directly asked if the pastor viewed homosexuality as a sin? I would hope the pastor would respond in love, say yes, and expound on sin, repentance, Jesus, salvation, etc. Is the debate here that ALL traditional, Biblical, Christian churches must change their doctrine? There are many affirming denominations, and that info could be found online easily.

Sorry, I just find this entire discussion fascinating. Especially since I see this debate everywhere online, yet never experience an issue in person.

[Anonymous]

I hope marriage equality gets codified, but it’s not yet, and a Supreme Court justice explicitly said he’s coming for it. As for trans youth, it’s important to note that puberty blockers (medications that are far more common before adulthood than surgical treatments) are reversible, and being treated with affirmation (name, pronouns, dress/expression) has an incredibly positive impact on trans youth mental health — hugely important since they are among the highest risk of suicide. In general, I think it’s crucial that we allow the parents and physicians of trans youth to lead policy here.

Re: the pastor question, we all have the individual right to believe what we want, but there should be limits, like banning conversion therapy (trauma and torture). No, we can’t legislate churches out of all bad theology, we have to win in the court of public opinion there. But it is crucial that churches be up front about what they actually believe and not bait and switch people. There’s a movement for this called Church Clarity and it’s really important work.

[Anonymous]

Glennon and Jen each started as (vaguely) Christian bloggers and their initial followers were likely similar ilk.

Now they’ve cast off their Bible-believing ways and each has formed their own quasi new age beliefs with respective partnered relationships. All followers must agree with current choices or be cast out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Glennon and Jen each started as (vaguely) Christian bloggers and their initial followers were likely similar ilk.

Now they’ve cast off their Bible-believing ways and each has formed their own quasi new age beliefs with respective partnered relationships. All followers must agree with current choices or be cast out.

Two women who just happen to be authors writing through this time period — this shift in understanding (on LGBTQ equality) is happening for entire generations, much like racial civil rights in the 60s and 70s. Same refrain of being “cast out” for having “unpopular views” was used back then, too, as the tides turned toward a better world.

[Anonymous]

Can we move onto more fun topics?!

Time should have stayed private. I thought (based on Brandon’s pics and the assessment given here) that she was probably super sweet, maybe a little dumb and caught up in a bunch of drama that she didn’t seek out or deserve. However, after reading through a bunch of her Insta posts - especially her most recent one 😅🙄 - I think she is HERE for the drama. A lot of her captions have the feel of being written by an immature girl to her “haters.” Soooooo much gushing about her man, describing their perfect night, how happy they are, etc. It’s like Jen, but she doesn’t have the writing skills to hide the fact that she’s posting with a clear agenda!

And why make her account public? She has over 1,500 followers now, but very little engagement on posts, so most people are just lurking. Does anyone know how many she previously had?

I do think she probably is genuinely into Brandon. The cheap dresses and shoes make me think she feels like she hit the jackpot with a guy that buys her tacky name brand gifts with oversized logos so everyone knows their name brand, takes her to expensive chain steakhouses, and on Mexico weekends. She probably really likes him, but as someone who was once in a relationship with a guy who had a toxic ex situation I know there’s a bit of an adrenaline high that comes from feeling like you won and wanting the right people to know you won. I also know those relationships often end badly.

Also, she’s not as cute as I thought she was.

[Anonymous]

One more thing! No bad feelings towards Tina.
Her Instagram account just paints a different picture than what I had previously thought.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. Looks’s Tina’s son is moving in with Gavin and his girlfriend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting. Looks’s Tina’s son is moving in with Gavin and his girlfriend.

It also appears that he’s a rabid Trumper who mostly posts pics of his truck and his assault rifle. He also had some pics of Tina where she’s clearly a little heavier and less augmented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we move onto more fun topics?!

Time should have stayed private. I thought (based on Brandon’s pics and the assessment given here) that she was probably super sweet, maybe a little dumb and caught up in a bunch of drama that she didn’t seek out or deserve. However, after reading through a bunch of her Insta posts - especially her most recent one 😅🙄 - I think she is HERE for the drama. A lot of her captions have the feel of being written by an immature girl to her “haters.” Soooooo much gushing about her man, describing their perfect night, how happy they are, etc. It’s like Jen, but she doesn’t have the writing skills to hide the fact that she’s posting with a clear agenda!

And why make her account public? She has over 1,500 followers now, but very little engagement on posts, so most people are just lurking. Does anyone know how many she previously had?

I do think she probably is genuinely into Brandon. The cheap dresses and shoes make me think she feels like she hit the jackpot with a guy that buys her tacky name brand gifts with oversized logos so everyone knows their name brand, takes her to expensive chain steakhouses, and on Mexico weekends. She probably really likes him, but as someone who was once in a relationship with a guy who had a toxic ex situation I know there’s a bit of an adrenaline high that comes from feeling like you won and wanting the right people to know you won. I also know those relationships often end badly.

Also, she’s not as cute as I thought she was.

I admit I lurked too. And honestly? She clearly started living it up once she got with Brandon…no indications of extravagant hotels and vacations etc until she and him got together. What’s she gonna do once he’s blown all the divorce money he got from Jen (based on TX divorce law)???? Confirms my suspicion that dude just wants to be a big shot - I think someone earlier used the phrase high roller - and his instagram (and hers now) scream that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only money Jen’s gotten from me so far was her 7 book/workbook when our mega church used it for their summer women’s Bible study. But I kind of want her cookbook. I do enjoy her humor sometimes. Not her sarcastic mocking humor but her irreverent kind.
Oh well, I guess at the end of the day she’s living her “best life.” While I’m still in my husbands 3X t-shirt/no pants scraping stuck waffle off the waffle iron. Perhaps my real issue with Jen is the way she keeps on “winning at life” and I’m jealous. I still despise her deceptive ways and her angry social justice tirades but she’s enjoying her life and living it on her own terms. Maybe narcissists really do have a gift for saying, “screw yall, I'm gonna do what makes me happy.” While us “Bible thumping” family focused types eschew our “best life” for the one that puts our responsibilities above our personal pleasure. I was taught that’s maturity but sometimes it feels like martyrdom. Then again I may be lost in the haze of Jen’s image crafted BS after seeing the back of her cookbook with its celebrity endorsements. That woman has favor.

Anyway, I much prefer my life of peanut butter stained clothes, snotty noses, scraped knees, and a sweet, faithful husband. That’s real life. 💛

I wonder if she would too.
What profits a woman if she gains the world yet loses her soul.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we move onto more fun topics?!

Time should have stayed private. I thought (based on Brandon’s pics and the assessment given here) that she was probably super sweet, maybe a little dumb and caught up in a bunch of drama that she didn’t seek out or deserve. However, after reading through a bunch of her Insta posts - especially her most recent one 😅🙄 - I think she is HERE for the drama. A lot of her captions have the feel of being written by an immature girl to her “haters.” Soooooo much gushing about her man, describing their perfect night, how happy they are, etc. It’s like Jen, but she doesn’t have the writing skills to hide the fact that she’s posting with a clear agenda!

And why make her account public? She has over 1,500 followers now, but very little engagement on posts, so most people are just lurking. Does anyone know how many she previously had?

I do think she probably is genuinely into Brandon. The cheap dresses and shoes make me think she feels like she hit the jackpot with a guy that buys her tacky name brand gifts with oversized logos so everyone knows their name brand, takes her to expensive chain steakhouses, and on Mexico weekends. She probably really likes him, but as someone who was once in a relationship with a guy who had a toxic ex situation I know there’s a bit of an adrenaline high that comes from feeling like you won and wanting the right people to know you won. I also know those relationships often end badly.

Also, she’s not as cute as I thought she was.

I admit I lurked too. And honestly? She clearly started living it up once she got with Brandon…no indications of extravagant hotels and vacations etc until she and him got together. What’s she gonna do once he’s blown all the divorce money he got from Jen (based on TX divorce law)???? Confirms my suspicion that dude just wants to be a big shot - I think someone earlier used the phrase high roller - and his instagram (and hers now) scream that.

Yeah. two 50-yr-olds wearing that many name brands all the time screams desperate for attention. I thought he was kind of sweet in the way he talked about her on his account. But agree that the way she talks about him and their life sounds more performative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting. Looks’s Tina’s son is moving in with Gavin and his girlfriend.

Do you know if they were friends before their parents got together?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tina's Instagram just became public today. Go check it out. Lots of very happy pics of the beautiful engaged couple, and lots of pictures that show her great rack. She's a hottie! Gavin and Caleb are probably so h*rny over their new stepmom. She is the definition of a MILF.

these comments are so totally incongruous with the vibe of this thread it's obvious. Good grief.
The fact that you need to comment on a Christian mom's thread, it reminds me of the stereotypical cheeseball skinny jeans pastor who always brings up about his "smokin' hot wife" in his sermons 🤮
I'm embarrassed for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Brandon used to be a family-man and pastor shepherding Christians towards faithfulness and humility and submission to God and sacrificial service to the poor and marginalized.

Now he’s a tatted dudebro chugging champagne with a Texas Barbie at various luxury hotels and resorts.

This guy wrote A Mile Wide.

this guy is an inch deep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Honest question here, I promise. I do not mean this as a “gotcha” or argumentative in any way. I’m just seeking to learn more.
You stated here that basic human rights are being denied to whole groups of people. I assume you are referring to LGBTQ based on the thread. Re-reading through the comments, it seems like the issue being debated is whether or not this is considered a “sin”. For those with a traditional, biblical belief system, I think the answer is yes. So the basic human right being denied is - whether or not someone thinks someone else is going to heaven (or hell)? I’m genuinely confused. It seems as though the demand here is for people to alter their personal beliefs to assure someone else is “ok”. It seems strange. I consider myself a “sinner”. Whether or not you believe I am going to heaven (or hell) is of no consequence to me.

No offense taken to the question! The basic human rights I’m referring to are marriage, adoption, affirming health care for trans people, etc. These things are under very real attack at both the state and national level right now.

While I think the non-affirming position is incorrect theologically and harmful to the church, I don’t mean to equate that with human rights. The problem is that the lack of separation between church and state allows the former to influence the latter.

https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/61087-an-open-letter-to-brandon-and-jen-hatmaker-on-homosexuality-and-the-bible

I take offense— honestly, if someone puts LBGQT…. All the letters, into a class that is less than any one else, then that person and the “religion” or “god” they follow is simply a terrible human being. Seriously. If you can’t accept someone because of how and who they love, then you are a bad human and frankly I don’t want anything to do with that type of person. And don’t give me the “hate the sin, love the sinner” BS. That’s just a cop out. You are literally saying that you are better than some one because he/she is gay or trans or whatever.