Jen Hatmaker

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They are indeed questions and they are directly questioning the passivity that so many evangelical women willingly participate in.

Meanwhile while these same women here are saying superior things like “She is a false teacher”( because she doesn’t believe what I do), mourning over her “losing her way” theologically - that sounds pretty condescending, saying you’re sad because you were lied to because people promoted her to you as a real person of faith. (Instead of questioning a system where you’re being told who to follow). It all contradicts and doesn’t make sense.

We view Christianity as objectively true and you’re framing it as if we’re picking favorite flavors of ice cream. There are things that are gray areas in Christian doctrine (eschatology, for example), but Jen is playing with core doctrines of the faith, and when you do that, you would definitely be considered a false teacher. Same as a math teacher who taught you 2+2 can equal 5. Well, no.

We all have people we look up to and learn from. People whose wisdom earns our respect. You have those people. at least
I hope you do. And if those people go off the rails, it’s easy to feel hurt. No one told me to follow Jen. People shared her stuff, and I checked her out. She was funny. I was unimpressed by the one book I read and moved on as she obviously began deconstructing. I’m not sure why that whole process wouldn’t be understandable to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Why is or was she any better than any other woman you can meet in a church anywhere? Why was there an avenue for Jen Hatmaker to become "Jen Hatmaker" in the first place?

Jen wasn't better than any woman in my church, but she was navigating the public sphere as a seemingly devout Christian, so how she answered challenges to the Biblical faith inspired me as a somewhat less-mature Christian how I may answer those same inquiries. Such as her initial stance on same sex marriage. Her first public response to it was, Brandon and I affirm traditional marriage. Then, she did a 180 and called it sacred and officiated a "wedding."

Her writing was funny and fresh, and unique 15 or so years ago in the Christian women's studies space. Her whole "here is my imperfect life, and I am trying to love Jesus with all of my heart while facing similar mundane indignities and issues that you are" schtick resonated with many, many women. And she worked and put out more books and then a blog so that thirst for her funny anecdotes was what contributed to the Jen Hatmaker industrial complex.

Why is “wedding” in quotes?

I think you can probably guess...

[Anonymous]

It’s kind of rich to use eschatology as a place “we can disagree,” but denigrate LGBTQ+ Christians and call that orthodoxy. Eschatology is about end times and the fate of our souls — pretty dang important. Much more central to one’s idea of God than your neighbors’ the right to love each other, or queer teens to be who they are.

Homophobia is first principal in this mindset. The doctrine just serves to justify the existing prejudice.

Notice how women aren’t considered property anymore and we don’t tolerate slavery? We professing Christians haven’t always gotten it right with our commitment to “biblical views.” We’ve had to realize that our systematic theologies can be fallible, not always representing the teachings of the Messiah we aspire to follow.

Marriage can be a symbol of Christ and the church no matter the genders of the married couple.

No, Jen is not a theologian or scholar who will exemplify the tough work of critical biblical and historical analysis on the topic. Find someone better. Read wider. Read people who understand that the ESV or NIV or KJV Bibles we have on our night stands are important anthologies that require critical thought and contextualization to apply to the time we live in.

[Anonymous]

“Read wider”?

Please, sis.

It will shock you to know that it’s possible to read the affirming canon, the M. Vines of the world, the Enns’, and still come to hard conclusion that God intends for marriage to be between one man and one woman and that anything that departs from that is in grave error.

[Anonymous]

I think Jen was really genuine about her changing views on homosexuality and gay marriage. Her podcast interview with Sydney was really well done and vulnerable. She may be opportunistic in other ways but in this case she really genuinely seemed to grapple with her beliefs and her daughter was a catalyst for that. Having a kid or someone close to you show you a different reality by merely existing in a way that is contrary to what you thought isn’t light or her throwing away faith. Its dealing with what’s in front of you and asking questions about a faith tradition that also gotten many things wrong as it has right.

I mean putting aside not discussing with their church which they should have included people in on ….her movement in it seemed to be coming out of a place of love and concern. Not her just being rebellious or something.

I think she does that in other areas but not in this instance.

[Anonymous]

Yes, if homophobia is first principle, then no amount of reading will change one’s mind. Not shocked by that, unfortunately.

The suggestion to read wider was for anyone who is genuinely confused by a Christ who said “by your love they shall know you” and an American Christianity that is the farthest thing from loving. The evangelical interpretation of the Bible, the unnecessary and impossible burden of inerrancy — these should not be equated with following Jesus. For most, they are a stumbling block.

[Anonymous]

Wow, this thread has now taken a turn. Why so serious? Jen is a funny-ish person who is charming and can spin a good yarn. She attracted many women, who were in similar positions in life with kids, balancing a marriage, work, struggling and getting through everyday life. She made it “ok” to be imperfect. She had a sense of self deprecation, which is always attractive to others. She gave off a sense of, “hey, don’t beat yourself up over the small stuff.” Or, “it’s ok to struggle with certain parts of the bible and how to navigate real life. Here’s how I approach these tough issues.” I think the writing along with those sentiments are what women were drawn to. But, then it went further and got more over the top, more outrageous, and then ultimately, her world fell apart.

For me, there was always something a little disingenuous about her at ANC. She believes a little too much of the hype. She seemed arrogant and a little better than everyone else at church. That’s why I didn’t care too much for her after the “new car smell” faded. Plainly put, she is fake in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s kind of rich to use eschatology as a place “we can disagree,” but denigrate LGBTQ+ Christians and call that orthodoxy. Eschatology is about end times and the fate of our souls — pretty dang important. Much more central to one’s idea of God than your neighbors’ the right to love each other, or queer teens to be who they are.

Homophobia is first principal in this mindset. The doctrine just serves to justify the existing prejudice.

Notice how women aren’t considered property anymore and we don’t tolerate slavery? We professing Christians haven’t always gotten it right with our commitment to “biblical views.” We’ve had to realize that our systematic theologies can be fallible, not always representing the teachings of the Messiah we aspire to follow.

Marriage can be a symbol of Christ and the church no matter the genders of the married couple.

No, Jen is not a theologian or scholar who will exemplify the tough work of critical biblical and historical analysis on the topic. Find someone better. Read wider. Read people who understand that the ESV or NIV or KJV Bibles we have on our night stands are important anthologies that require critical thought and contextualization to apply to the time we live in.

The assumptions you’re making about people who happened to stumble into Jen on social media and follow her are wild. Who thinks she’s a theologian? “Read wider.” Who reads only Jen Hatmaker?

Disagreeing about pre-mil, a-mil, and post-mil has nothing to do with the state of our souls, and it is well known not to be a salvation issue.

I’m would argue that, based on creation, I disagree that homosexual marriage can be a symbol of Christ and the church because Christ and the Church aren’t the same thing. To quote Rachel Gilson, “The gospel is about an uncrossable chasm shockingly bridged.” Eve imaged God in a different way than Adam did.

Listen, people can do what they want, and I’m not here to argue about it, and neither are obviously most other commenters. The condescension dripping from your “questions” (assuming you’re the same poster) was just too much for me. Why don’t I go find the plethora of people around me and look to them for learning? Quite simply because there aren’t a plethora of these people around me. Most people in my life are just living their lives and doing their own thing in their own bubbles.

I think that answers your ultimate question.

[Anonymous]

For the love of his, move this to the religion thread.

[Anonymous]

GAH! This is not a thread to debate religion. Thanks for ruining another part of the internet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are indeed questions and they are directly questioning the passivity that so many evangelical women willingly participate in.

Meanwhile while these same women here are saying superior things like “She is a false teacher”( because she doesn’t believe what I do), mourning over her “losing her way” theologically - that sounds pretty condescending, saying you’re sad because you were lied to because people promoted her to you as a real person of faith. (Instead of questioning a system where you’re being told who to follow). It all contradicts and doesn’t make sense.

We view Christianity as objectively true and you’re framing it as if we’re picking favorite flavors of ice cream. There are things that are gray areas in Christian doctrine (eschatology, for example), but Jen is playing with core doctrines of the faith, and when you do that, you would definitely be considered a false teacher. Same as a math teacher who taught you 2+2 can equal 5. Well, no.

We all have people we look up to and learn from. People whose wisdom earns our respect. You have those people. at least
I hope you do. And if those people go off the rails, it’s easy to feel hurt. No one told me to follow Jen. People shared her stuff, and I checked her out. She was funny. I was unimpressed by the one book I read and moved on as she obviously began deconstructing. I’m not sure why that whole process wouldn’t be understandable to you.

Jen is (or was) a pastor. A woman as a pastor is absolutely a “flavor” of Christianity that more conservative faith traditions do not accept. You’re proving yourself wrong and pointing out your own contradictions.

We’re all here on a gossip board, a patently “unchristian” place to be. Guising it as concern or sadness is actually cracking me up. It’s like when people air out gossip via prayer 😂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: The assumptions you’re making about people who happened to stumble into Jen on social media and follow her are wild. Who thinks she’s a theologian? “Read wider.” Who reads only Jen Hatmaker?

Disagreeing about pre-mil, a-mil, and post-mil has nothing to do with the state of our souls, and it is well known not to be a salvation issue.

I’m would argue that, based on creation, I disagree that homosexual marriage can be a symbol of Christ and the church because Christ and the Church aren’t the same thing. To quote Rachel Gilson, “The gospel is about an uncrossable chasm shockingly bridged.” Eve imaged God in a different way than Adam did.

Listen, people can do what they want, and I’m not here to argue about it, and neither are obviously most other commenters. The condescension dripping from your “questions” (assuming you’re the same poster) was just too much for me. Why don’t I go find the plethora of people around me and look to them for learning? Quite simply because there aren’t a plethora of these people around me. Most people in my life are just living their lives and doing their own thing in their own bubbles.

I think that answers your ultimate question.

I was not the one asking questions before. I’m responding to the people who make every little problematic thing Jen does a product of her becoming affirming somehow. It’s a recurring theme from nearly the start of the thread.

Our planet is on fire and our democracy is atrophying. To continue to fixate energies (and funds) on denying gay, queer, or intersex people their full humanity is the worst possible witness of the church.

[Anonymous]

I was not the one asking questions before. I’m responding to the people who make every little problematic thing Jen does a product of her becoming affirming somehow. It’s a recurring theme from nearly the start of the thread.

Our planet is on fire and our democracy is atrophying. To continue to fixate energies (and funds) on denying gay, queer, or intersex people their full humanity is the worst possible witness of the church.

Thank you 🙌 Yes, this! There are also several comments that hint at Brandon not being affirming, despite him having publicly proclaiming otherwise. This seems to be a strand in the narrative that Jen has “fallen away” (🙄) but Brandon is simply a mistreated husband, full of the Holy Spirit, who has reasonably and understandably lost his way. 🤮

Jen is problematic in many ways, but it’s not all a result of her becoming affirming. In fact, she was problematic before she became affirming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Thank you 🙌 Yes, this! There are also several comments that hint at Brandon not being affirming, despite him having publicly proclaiming otherwise. This seems to be a strand in the narrative that Jen has “fallen away” (🙄) but Brandon is simply a mistreated husband, full of the Holy Spirit, who has reasonably and understandably lost his way. 🤮

Jen is problematic in many ways, but it’s not all a result of her becoming affirming. In fact, she was problematic before she became affirming.

💯

[Anonymous]

To shift the subject away from the religious talk…

How often do Jen and Tyler see each either? Is it more frequently than she posts? If not, it seems that it’s only once a month or less. Part of me finds their relationship believable—they are both a catch in their own ways—but the distance, infrequent visits, and the over-the-top profession of forever love have me scratching my head. The gushing on about it and going on podcasts to discuss their relationship give a thou-doth-protest-too-much vibe. If it were all a stunt or set up, she wouldn’t be professing that he’s her forever love though, right? That doesn’t leave the door open for parting as friends or whatever is next. None of it adds up.