Why don't people want to go to tj just because there are "too many" asians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How many of you folks commenting on this thread actually have a kid at TJ?

TJ is one of 25 high or secondary schools in FCPS and educates the fewest students who live in the county. Lee is smaller but 30% of TJ lives outside of FFX.

Are you suggesting 3-4% of the students and/or 3-4% of the parents of high school students in the county should dictate FCPS policy? Sure sounds that way, and that's not right.

This is actually a really good point. It definitely wasn't always the case, but is now. TJ educates fewer FCPS students than any other HS in the county, and it's actually by a healthy margin. Schools like Marshall, Justice, Falls Church, and Edison used to be smaller than TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP do you really think these kids are dropping these extra- curriculars in middle school and then able to just jump back in? And at high levels? Serious question. I just don't think that's what's happening.

I know for a fact that is what's happening for many of them, yes. Most of them who jump back in are not able to come back at a high level - there are outliers, to be sure, but yes, there are absolutely a huge number of families every year who sell out to the TJ application process. Plenty who would start pursuing an extracurricular interest in middle school but never even begin due to a perceived need to beef up their Science Olympiad or Vex Robotics or Odyssey of the Mind credentials because their parents believe that doing so will get them into TJ. And a huge number of those kids don't even get into TJ in the first place. FCPS focuses all of its energy on the place itself, but almost zero energy on the impact that its existence (and current admissions process) has on the county as a whole.

And the Admissions Office could get rid of just about all of that if they would publicly place any value at all on achievements outside of STEM, in recognition of the fact that delivering a complete high school experience requires a school to have kids who are interested and capable in various different areas.

I also don't believe the above is true. Kids have their own hobbies and passions, and if they also want to go to TJ, most will not just drop their passions; they will find time to do STEM. Also, the implication above is that kids that are not interested in STEM should go to TJ to make it as diverse as the base schools. I disagree with this. Only the kids who are truly interested in something related to math and science should go (the ones who have many non stem passions but who have no interest in stem should not apply, since it doesn't make any sense (unless their base high school is really bad or similar reason, which is not usually the case in FCPS).

A few years back over 20% of the incoming TJ freshman were failing or close to failing their math class, which caused a great stir. What is the explanation for what happened? That the math class was too hard for them? Or were they were in the wrong class? Too hard of a teacher? Very doubtful it was any of these reasons. Most people attributed the root cause to the watered down admission process (as it relates to math component), and which resulted in a lot of kids getting in who were not really ready for the level of math they'd encounter at TJ.

If you believe that we should further shift the admission process toward lowering the STEM requirement (i.e math ability), we will either get the same problem as happened back then, or TJ would have to just lower its math and science requirements so that students can handle the work without failing, effectively lowering the math and science bar. I think it would be sad if the latter happens, as the school would no longer stand out as a STEM focused school, which would then (rightly) result in people in the county asking whether the school should still exist.

I think TJ's mission of excellence in math and science should not change; it's what makes it special and unique. And I will reiterate what others said earlier that we don't have to worry about kids stopping their passions/hobbies in middle school or at TJ (clearly this is not the case since we have many amazing kids doing amazing things at TJ that are not STEM related at all). Of course there are always some kids that do stop doing anything they are interested in to "maximize" their application process in the middle school years, but those are the kids that should likely not be the ones getting admitted for multiple reasons: because they may not truly be interested in STEM and just "faking it", or their parents may be pushing them to stop doing what they love in order to get into TJ effectively killing their love of learning, or both. These are really, really bad reasons to go to TJ, and in my opinion this is the cohort that has a hard time at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Forgot to add, in my opinion TJ is a diverse school even though it is STEM focused. While it is not racially diverse, all the students there have many diverse interests and hobbies and as long as the admissions process is fairly picking the kids who are the most likely to succeed there, I don't think the current lack of racial diversity is a completely terrible thing. But at the same time we should continue to keep finding ways to change that. That should not include lowering the STEM bar for the school. It should include identifying and supporting kids from an early age through programs that could prepare them for a math/science path, so that they could apply and succeed at TJ. This means putting in money and programs in the elementary schools that have many underepresented minorities to help lower the gap that widens by middle school.

[Anonymous]

I would rather see less money spent on building a better mousetrap (TJ) and more money spent on building a better house (FCPS).

It will not be easy for the School Board to take on that task because TJ boosters are politically active and returning TJ to its original, intended use will require boundary adjustments. And TJ serves as a crutch. No matter what the other challenges are within FCPS, the School Board can always point to TJ as evidence that "they must be doing something right."

But FCPS can't have it both ways. It cannot be a school system that purports to care about equity and then operate a school that affords a very small percentage of students access to opportunities to which the overwhelming majority of students, including many who would take advantage of such opportunities if available, are denied. To fail to take a hard look at the costs and benefits of operating TJ is to abdicate several of the School Board's most important responsibilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would rather see less money spent on building a better mousetrap (TJ) and more money spent on building a better house (FCPS).

It will not be easy for the School Board to take on that task because TJ boosters are politically active and returning TJ to its original, intended use will require boundary adjustments. And TJ serves as a crutch. No matter what the other challenges are within FCPS, the School Board can always point to TJ as evidence that "they must be doing something right."

But FCPS can't have it both ways. It cannot be a school system that purports to care about equity and then operate a school that affords a very small percentage of students access to opportunities to which the overwhelming majority of students, including many who would take advantage of such opportunities if available, are denied. To fail to take a hard look at the costs and benefits of operating TJ is to abdicate several of the School Board's most important responsibilities.

I don't believe FCPS would wisely spend the money if you take it away from TJ, I think they are already wasting lots of money and resources towards things like the latest "tech", "testing programs", and lots of private educational "consultants" and corporations. They should take that money which is on the order of Millions, and put it where their mouth is, namely on supporting education for the most disadvantaged students.

Second, let's be honest here, the "overwhelming majority" of students in the county likely wouldn't succeed at a place like TJ even if they had the opportunity to go there. I know it doesn't sound right, but it's a hard and uncomfortable truth.

I actually agree that TJ is one of the things they are getting right, at least when it comes to providing a fantastic math and science program. But that doesn't mean it would work for all students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Forgot to add, in my opinion TJ is a diverse school even though it is STEM focused. While it is not racially diverse, all the students there have many diverse interests and hobbies and as long as the admissions process is fairly picking the kids who are the most likely to succeed there, I don't think the current lack of racial diversity is a completely terrible thing. But at the same time we should continue to keep finding ways to change that. That should not include lowering the STEM bar for the school. It should include identifying and supporting kids from an early age through programs that could prepare them for a math/science path, so that they could apply and succeed at TJ. This means putting in money and programs in the elementary schools that have many underepresented minorities to help lower the gap that widens by middle school.

I'm not sure why people keep saying TJ is not racially diverse! It may not have enough number of American White, American Black and American Hispanic populations (based on some notion of equity in people's minds about a school having to represent the population mix of the county) but it does have a wide variety of other races - Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Indian and Nigerian. Sure you classify most of them as "Asian" but they have nothing in common except for the continent they came from. Different cultures, different languages, different religions..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forgot to add, in my opinion TJ is a diverse school even though it is STEM focused. While it is not racially diverse, all the students there have many diverse interests and hobbies and as long as the admissions process is fairly picking the kids who are the most likely to succeed there, I don't think the current lack of racial diversity is a completely terrible thing. But at the same time we should continue to keep finding ways to change that. That should not include lowering the STEM bar for the school. It should include identifying and supporting kids from an early age through programs that could prepare them for a math/science path, so that they could apply and succeed at TJ. This means putting in money and programs in the elementary schools that have many underepresented minorities to help lower the gap that widens by middle school.

I'm not sure why people keep saying TJ is not racially diverse! It may not have enough number of American White, American Black and American Hispanic populations (based on some notion of equity in people's minds about a school having to represent the population mix of the county) but it does have a wide variety of other races - Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Indian and Nigerian. Sure you classify most of them as "Asian" but they have nothing in common except for the continent they came from. Different cultures, different languages, different religions..

I fully agree with you, and the rest of the kids there as well... many of which also have parent backgrounds from the rest of the world and other continents. Racially diverse was meant as not diverse specifically in terms of representation of Blacks and Hispanics. Also definitely not diverse in terms of economic class as a whole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would rather see less money spent on building a better mousetrap (TJ) and more money spent on building a better house (FCPS).

It will not be easy for the School Board to take on that task because TJ boosters are politically active and returning TJ to its original, intended use will require boundary adjustments. And TJ serves as a crutch. No matter what the other challenges are within FCPS, the School Board can always point to TJ as evidence that "they must be doing something right."

But FCPS can't have it both ways. It cannot be a school system that purports to care about equity and then operate a school that affords a very small percentage of students access to opportunities to which the overwhelming majority of students, including many who would take advantage of such opportunities if available, are denied. To fail to take a hard look at the costs and benefits of operating TJ is to abdicate several of the School Board's most important responsibilities.

I don't believe FCPS would wisely spend the money if you take it away from TJ, I think they are already wasting lots of money and resources towards things like the latest "tech", "testing programs", and lots of private educational "consultants" and corporations. They should take that money which is on the order of Millions, and put it where their mouth is, namely on supporting education for the most disadvantaged students.

Second, let's be honest here, the "overwhelming majority" of students in the county likely wouldn't succeed at a place like TJ even if they had the opportunity to go there. I know it doesn't sound right, but it's a hard and uncomfortable truth.

I actually agree that TJ is one of the things they are getting right, at least when it comes to providing a fantastic math and science program. But that doesn't mean it would work for all students.

TJ has never lacked for those defending its elitism and coming up with arguments to emphasize its benefits and ignore its costs. They will never engage as to whether having 1500 county kids in a school that has 1800 but could accommodate 2100 or more is fair when FCPS has numerous schools that are too crowded. "Equity" to them means only that they get what they think they deserve.

Those defenders have an outsized influence on FCPS and other decision-makers in the county. They need to step back and objectively decide whether they want FCPS to be known for one high school or 25.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Forgot to add, in my opinion TJ is a diverse school even though it is STEM focused. While it is not racially diverse, all the students there have many diverse interests and hobbies and as long as the admissions process is fairly picking the kids who are the most likely to succeed there, I don't think the current lack of racial diversity is a completely terrible thing. But at the same time we should continue to keep finding ways to change that. That should not include lowering the STEM bar for the school. It should include identifying and supporting kids from an early age through programs that could prepare them for a math/science path, so that they could apply and succeed at TJ. This means putting in money and programs in the elementary schools that have many underepresented minorities to help lower the gap that widens by middle school.

I'm not sure why people keep saying TJ is not racially diverse! It may not have enough number of American White, American Black and American Hispanic populations (based on some notion of equity in people's minds about a school having to represent the population mix of the county) but it does have a wide variety of other races - Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Indian and Nigerian. Sure you classify most of them as "Asian" but they have nothing in common except for the continent they came from. Different cultures, different languages, different religions..

I fully agree with you, and the rest of the kids there as well... many of which also have parent backgrounds from the rest of the world and other continents. Racially diverse was meant as not diverse specifically in terms of representation of Blacks and Hispanics. Also definitely not diverse in terms of economic class as a whole.

Of course there is racial if not economic diversity at TJ but that does not alter the fact that many populations in the county (Hispanics, African-Americans and FARMS students) are barely represented at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP do you really think these kids are dropping these extra- curriculars in middle school and then able to just jump back in? And at high levels? Serious question. I just don't think that's what's happening.

I know for a fact that is what's happening for many of them, yes. Most of them who jump back in are not able to come back at a high level - there are outliers, to be sure, but yes, there are absolutely a huge number of families every year who sell out to the TJ application process. Plenty who would start pursuing an extracurricular interest in middle school but never even begin due to a perceived need to beef up their Science Olympiad or Vex Robotics or Odyssey of the Mind credentials because their parents believe that doing so will get them into TJ. And a huge number of those kids don't even get into TJ in the first place. FCPS focuses all of its energy on the place itself, but almost zero energy on the impact that its existence (and current admissions process) has on the county as a whole.

And the Admissions Office could get rid of just about all of that if they would publicly place any value at all on achievements outside of STEM, in recognition of the fact that delivering a complete high school experience requires a school to have kids who are interested and capable in various different areas.

I also don't believe the above is true. Kids have their own hobbies and passions, and if they also want to go to TJ, most will not just drop their passions; they will find time to do STEM. Also, the implication above is that kids that are not interested in STEM should go to TJ to make it as diverse as the base schools. I disagree with this. Only the kids who are truly interested in something related to math and science should go (the ones who have many non stem passions but who have no interest in stem should not apply, since it doesn't make any sense (unless their base high school is really bad or similar reason, which is not usually the case in FCPS).

A few years back over 20% of the incoming TJ freshman were failing or close to failing their math class, which caused a great stir. What is the explanation for what happened? That the math class was too hard for them? Or were they were in the wrong class? Too hard of a teacher? Very doubtful it was any of these reasons. Most people attributed the root cause to the watered down admission process (as it relates to math component), and which resulted in a lot of kids getting in who were not really ready for the level of math they'd encounter at TJ.

If you believe that we should further shift the admission process toward lowering the STEM requirement (i.e math ability), we will either get the same problem as happened back then, or TJ would have to just lower its math and science requirements so that students can handle the work without failing, effectively lowering the math and science bar. I think it would be sad if the latter happens, as the school would no longer stand out as a STEM focused school, which would then (rightly) result in people in the county asking whether the school should still exist.

I think TJ's mission of excellence in math and science should not change; it's what makes it special and unique. And I will reiterate what others said earlier that we don't have to worry about kids stopping their passions/hobbies in middle school or at TJ (clearly this is not the case since we have many amazing kids doing amazing things at TJ that are not STEM related at all). Of course there are always some kids that do stop doing anything they are interested in to "maximize" their application process in the middle school years, but those are the kids that should likely not be the ones getting admitted for multiple reasons: because they may not truly be interested in STEM and just "faking it", or their parents may be pushing them to stop doing what they love in order to get into TJ effectively killing their love of learning, or both. These are really, really bad reasons to go to TJ, and in my opinion this is the cohort that has a hard time at TJ.

A number of the teachers at TJ at the time thought that the reason for the students having problems with their Algebra II class was that many of them had been taking math prep classes which made them appear to be very advanced in math, but they didn't actually have a very strong understanding of the subject. They'd been pushed ahead for so many years, but never had had more than a surface deep grasp of the fundamentals. When they found themselves in a challenging class as freshmen at TJ, they just couldn't keep up.

[Anonymous]

Equity - so how much does FCPS spend not getting it right on the other end of the spectrum? Are you prepared to take money from those programs? Plenty SPED folks think the county isn't doing nearly what it should, but I never hear the argument of taking money away from those programs. Wasn't "equity" the reason no one was allowed to learn for 4 weeks?
And if some form of racial equity isn't happening, it's not bc of the TJ admissions process. It's systemic in our society and until those issue are fixed. If you are going single out TJ for not getting it right, there's a whole long list for FCPS to address. At least to a very large extent, TJ IS working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Equity - so how much does FCPS spend not getting it right on the other end of the spectrum? Are you prepared to take money from those programs? Plenty SPED folks think the county isn't doing nearly what it should, but I never hear the argument of taking money away from those programs. Wasn't "equity" the reason no one was allowed to learn for 4 weeks?
And if some form of racial equity isn't happening, it's not bc of the TJ admissions process. It's systemic in our society and until those issue are fixed. If you are going single out TJ for not getting it right, there's a whole long list for FCPS to address. At least to a very large extent, TJ IS working.

You know the DOE Office of Civil Rights under Obama was looking into this, but nothing ever came of it, and now I doubt anything ever will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equity - so how much does FCPS spend not getting it right on the other end of the spectrum? Are you prepared to take money from those programs? Plenty SPED folks think the county isn't doing nearly what it should, but I never hear the argument of taking money away from those programs. Wasn't "equity" the reason no one was allowed to learn for 4 weeks?
And if some form of racial equity isn't happening, it's not bc of the TJ admissions process. It's systemic in our society and until those issue are fixed. If you are going single out TJ for not getting it right, there's a whole long list for FCPS to address. At least to a very large extent, TJ IS working.

You know the DOE Office of Civil Rights under Obama was looking into this, but nothing ever came of it, and now I doubt anything ever will.

Decisions around TJ should be made by FCPS in the first instance, not the Department of Education or the federal courts. The School Board is the elected local body most accountable to the local citizenry for the decisions to overcrowd some schools while TJ only educates 1500 or so county students; to provide opportunities to TJ students that are denied to other students who would also benefit from their availability; and to oversee an admissions policy that, in effect if not design, systematically has excluded non-Asian minorities from the school for decades.

But, if future appeals are made to federal authorities and the courts, one should not assume that they will be handled the same way as they would be handled by lame-duck Obama officials or the likes of Betsy DeVos. It does not matter that inequality in our society is systemic and deep-rooted. The issue is how operating a school like TJ perpetuates it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Equity - so how much does FCPS spend not getting it right on the other end of the spectrum? Are you prepared to take money from those programs? Plenty SPED folks think the county isn't doing nearly what it should, but I never hear the argument of taking money away from those programs. Wasn't "equity" the reason no one was allowed to learn for 4 weeks?
And if some form of racial equity isn't happening, it's not bc of the TJ admissions process. It's systemic in our society and until those issue are fixed. If you are going single out TJ for not getting it right, there's a whole long list for FCPS to address. At least to a very large extent, TJ IS working.

You know the DOE Office of Civil Rights under Obama was looking into this, but nothing ever came of it, and now I doubt anything ever will.

Decisions around TJ should be made by FCPS in the first instance, not the Department of Education or the federal courts. The School Board is the elected local body most accountable to the local citizenry for the decisions to overcrowd some schools while TJ only educates 1500 or so county students; to provide opportunities to TJ students that are denied to other students who would also benefit from their availability; and to oversee an admissions policy that, in effect if not design, systematically has excluded non-Asian minorities from the school for decades.

But, if future appeals are made to federal authorities and the courts, one should not assume that they will be handled the same way as they would be handled by lame-duck Obama officials or the likes of Betsy DeVos. It does not matter that inequality in our society is systemic and deep-rooted. The issue is how operating a school like TJ perpetuates it.

Can you present proof that kids are systematically excluded? Sounds like that your personal opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would rather see less money spent on building a better mousetrap (TJ) and more money spent on building a better house (FCPS).

It will not be easy for the School Board to take on that task because TJ boosters are politically active and returning TJ to its original, intended use will require boundary adjustments. And TJ serves as a crutch. No matter what the other challenges are within FCPS, the School Board can always point to TJ as evidence that "they must be doing something right."

But FCPS can't have it both ways. It cannot be a school system that purports to care about equity and then operate a school that affords a very small percentage of students access to opportunities to which the overwhelming majority of students, including many who would take advantage of such opportunities if available, are denied. To fail to take a hard look at the costs and benefits of operating TJ is to abdicate several of the School Board's most important responsibilities.

I don't believe FCPS would wisely spend the money if you take it away from TJ, I think they are already wasting lots of money and resources towards things like the latest "tech", "testing programs", and lots of private educational "consultants" and corporations. They should take that money which is on the order of Millions, and put it where their mouth is, namely on supporting education for the most disadvantaged students.

Second, let's be honest here, the "overwhelming majority" of students in the county likely wouldn't succeed at a place like TJ even if they had the opportunity to go there. I know it doesn't sound right, but it's a hard and uncomfortable truth.

I actually agree that TJ is one of the things they are getting right, at least when it comes to providing a fantastic math and science program. But that doesn't mean it would work for all students.

TJ has never lacked for those defending its elitism and coming up with arguments to emphasize its benefits and ignore its costs. They will never engage as to whether having 1500 county kids in a school that has 1800 but could accommodate 2100 or more is fair when FCPS has numerous schools that are too crowded. "Equity" to them means only that they get what they think they deserve.

Those defenders have an outsized influence on FCPS and other decision-makers in the county. They need to step back and objectively decide whether they want FCPS to be known for one high school or 25.

You want to shut down a school just because FCPS can't figure out how to do proper growth and capacity planning to fix overcrowded schools?