Unpopular opinion: DCPS teachers are super well paid!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

It’s 35 years

How many teachers actually make it to 35 years? I’m guessing very few teachers get to enjoy this pension.

Well that's the deal. If you leave because you don't like the job, or you can make more or do something more enjoyable elsewhere, you don't get the pension.

Pensions like this are an acknowledgement that (1) the work can be difficult, especially if you do it long-term, and (2) there is a great benefit to having experienced people in these roles. So it's an incentive to stick it out. But obviously you don't get a pension if you don't stay until it vests. Why should someone who teaches for 5-10 years and then leaves get a pension? Especially when they are making a perfectly respectable 60-80k during those years, with benefits and an above average amount of time off for someone with that annual salary?

To get the pension, you have to dedicate yourself to the job. It's a rare benefit because it's rare to see people dedicate themselves to a job in that way anymore. But there's nothing stopping you, assuming you have the credentials to get hired in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Very people work at any job for 35+ years these days, which is why 401ks are the more dominant retirement plan now.

[Anonymous]

1) Pension plan vests after 5 years.
2) Unused sick leave counts towards years of service.
3) If you die before receiving more than you put in, your survivors receive a lump-sum payout. (I've never seen such a provision.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1) Pension plan vests after 5 years.
2) Unused sick leave counts towards years of service.
3) If you die before receiving more than you put in, your survivors receive a lump-sum payout. (I've never seen such a provision.)

Nice!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1) Pension plan vests after 5 years.
2) Unused sick leave counts towards years of service.
3) If you die before receiving more than you put in, your survivors receive a lump-sum payout. (I've never seen such a provision.)

Yes and after 10 years you are receiving the max per year (2%) which is more than I get as a fed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know about DCPS but in MCPS I pay 7% of my salary towards my pension. Don't get me wrong, I love the security of having the pension. Keep in mind, pension benefits are changing. You need to work longer and will get much less pension. Also, the pay for teachers outside of the DC area is criminal, crazy low. I will not be steering my child towards education or an education related field.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

Most teachers also can't contribute to an IRA, as the pension changes the threshold maximum for cutting off the deduction. Roth IRAs are an option. 401k is also not an option. We have the government 457 plan, and lots of extremely high cost 403b plans.

I agree, though, that the pension is an incredible benefit. Just wanted to make sure that the rest of the financial options are correctly understood.

In DCPS it's 8%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) Pension plan vests after 5 years.
2) Unused sick leave counts towards years of service.
3) If you die before receiving more than you put in, your survivors receive a lump-sum payout. (I've never seen such a provision.)

Yes and after 10 years you are receiving the max per year (2%) which is more than I get as a fed.

DC employees who aren't teachers or cops don't get a pension at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

Tapping the sign: "You can't compare a state to a city."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) Pension plan vests after 5 years.
2) Unused sick leave counts towards years of service.
3) If you die before receiving more than you put in, your survivors receive a lump-sum payout. (I've never seen such a provision.)

Yes and after 10 years you are receiving the max per year (2%) which is more than I get as a fed.

DC employees who aren't teachers or cops don't get a pension at all.

Sounds like they need a union

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

Tapping the sign: "You can't compare a state to a city."

And why not? People do it all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

DC shows that money isn't everything. We can spend a ton of money on schools, and still the schools are hot garbage.

[Anonymous]

Well, let’s go with the trickle down theory that worked so well in the 80’s….take care of the top and it will all eventually trickle down to everyone else and make their lives better….right?
The failure is as within / so without….if you understand, you understand..
It takes the above approach to take care of the village, not a top down or bottom up approach.

[Anonymous]

DC employees who aren't teachers or cops don't get a pension at all.

DC Firefighters get a pension as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Very people work at any job for 35+ years these days, which is why 401ks are the more dominant retirement plan now.

I'll take "Bogus History" for $100.

Private companies abandoned pensions decade ago because they were ungodly expensive and no one could afford them.