Unpopular opinion: DCPS teachers are super well paid!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

[Anonymous]

Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

Most teachers also can't contribute to an IRA, as the pension changes the threshold maximum for cutting off the deduction. Roth IRAs are an option. 401k is also not an option. We have the government 457 plan, and lots of extremely high cost 403b plans.

I agree, though, that the pension is an incredible benefit. Just wanted to make sure that the rest of the financial options are correctly understood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been a high school counselor in both dcps and mcps. In 16 years i have never had one single student who was interested in becoming a teacher.

Interesting. I teach in DCPS and have had kids interested in becoming teachers every year. Several have become teachers and several are in grad school to become teachers.

You are clearly inspiring your students. Thank you. The trends pointing to a declining teacher workforce are pretty stark:

“Even as the population of college students has increased by 150% since 1970, the number of bachelor's degrees in education has plummeted by almost 50% — a steeper drop than that for English, literature and foreign language majors.”
— CBS News Jul 17, 2023
Education was once the No. 1 major for college students. Now it's an afterthought. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/education-majors-colleges-decline-teacher-pay/

[Anonymous]

I don't know about DCPS but in MCPS I pay 7% of my salary towards my pension. Don't get me wrong, I love the security of having the pension. Keep in mind, pension benefits are changing. You need to work longer and will get much less pension. Also, the pay for teachers outside of the DC area is criminal, crazy low. I will not be steering my child towards education or an education related field.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

Most teachers also can't contribute to an IRA, as the pension changes the threshold maximum for cutting off the deduction. Roth IRAs are an option. 401k is also not an option. We have the government 457 plan, and lots of extremely high cost 403b plans.

I agree, though, that the pension is an incredible benefit. Just wanted to make sure that the rest of the financial options are correctly understood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

It’s 35 years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

It’s 35 years

How many teachers actually make it to 35 years? I’m guessing very few teachers get to enjoy this pension.

[Anonymous]

I've been thinking about this some more. People are entitled to think whatever they want. If some folks think some teachers are extremely well paid, they are allowed to think that. It's okay. I am a teacher and personally, I don't really think about what other people get paid. Some people make more than I do, some less.

[Anonymous]

9 months ha ha ....I work 12 months for dcps , plus nights, and weekends .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been a high school counselor in both dcps and mcps. In 16 years i have never had one single student who was interested in becoming a teacher.

Interesting. I teach in DCPS and have had kids interested in becoming teachers every year. Several have become teachers and several are in grad school to become teachers.

You are clearly inspiring your students. Thank you. The trends pointing to a declining teacher workforce are pretty stark:

“Even as the population of college students has increased by 150% since 1970, the number of bachelor's degrees in education has plummeted by almost 50% — a steeper drop than that for English, literature and foreign language majors.”
— CBS News Jul 17, 2023
Education was once the No. 1 major for college students. Now it's an afterthought. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/education-majors-colleges-decline-teacher-pay/

This is probably a good thing. Education as an undergraduate major is pretty useless. One would do better to study a specialty instead (Math, Biology, History, Computer Science) and then become a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know about DCPS but in MCPS I pay 7% of my salary towards my pension. Don't get me wrong, I love the security of having the pension. Keep in mind, pension benefits are changing. You need to work longer and will get much less pension. Also, the pay for teachers outside of the DC area is criminal, crazy low. I will not be steering my child towards education or an education related field.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since we’re talking salaries and be edits, the public would be well-serviced by hiring a financial planner to come in each year and present to teachers about their pension benefit. Since teachers are not high-income, most probably don’t understand how valuable their defined benefit pension plan is.

For example, I suppose you’re a teacher that starts after college and retires at age 62 with 40 years of service. Assume further your highest three salaries are $120,000.

In this scenario, you would receive at least 80% of your income annually for life just from the single defined-benefit component. To purchase this product in the market right now would cost you $1.3 million dollars. So, just the single (albeit main) prong of your retirement is worth $1.3m. Teaching for five more years would raise the cost of the an unity to $1.5m.

Most people with defined benefit plans are not particularly high-income and so, I suspect, they don’t realize how incredibly valuable their pension plan is.

When you add social security on top, teachers easily receive more than 100% of their working income in retirement. IRAs and 401(k)s, like most non-public employees have exclusively, are additional valuable savings vehicles. But it is all about the DB pension.

Very very few teachers in DC have anywhere near 40 years of service at retirement and they are excluded from social security.

Pension is still great. Just fact checking the details.

Most teachers also can't contribute to an IRA, as the pension changes the threshold maximum for cutting off the deduction. Roth IRAs are an option. 401k is also not an option. We have the government 457 plan, and lots of extremely high cost 403b plans.

I agree, though, that the pension is an incredible benefit. Just wanted to make sure that the rest of the financial options are correctly understood.

8% for DCPS and 30 + years before you can draw from it I believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes and a significant percentage of DCPS graduates do not read beyond a third grade level. Way to go DCPS. Exhibit A in systemic racism.

Or more likely the failure of our teachers colleges, the fact the lower third of every college class goes into teaching, the failure to remediate widespread reading and math disabilities like dyslexia and dyscalculia - to use textbooks, teach phonics. The role of textbook manufacturers in binding a school district’s purchase of let’s say an excellent English curriculum but forcing them into multiple curricula which may be atrocious.

Yes, there is racism in this country - but
please educate yourself on the widespread structural issues other than racism that are preventing the education of our kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

[Anonymous]

As I said oodles of pages ago, I’m a dcps teacher who feels properly compensated. If a parent gives me an Amazon card, I write back with which classroom supply I buy with it. I think we make enough money; however, I do resent that I spend ~$600 annually just to have paper, pencils, etc…