Unpopular opinion: DCPS teachers are super well paid!

[Anonymous]

But doesn't the pension exist because the teachers are paying in 8% of their income?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But doesn't the pension exist because the teachers are paying in 8% of their income?

That doesn’t begin to cover the cost of the benefits. For example, staying five more years brings in an extra $45k in contributions and pays out the equivalent of an extra $300k in benefits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

Comparing cities to states doesn't usually yield useful information. In any case, NAEP publishes state and DC performance by race. The main difference in why Mississippi seems to perform higher than DC is the proportion of students by race and the very disparate performance by race.

Mississippi public school students are about half White and half Black. For Mississippi, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 35% proficient and above. For Black students it is 10%.

In DC, public school students are 65% Black and 15% White (the rest are Hispanic and other). For DC, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 70% proficient and above. For Black students it is 14%.

For 8th grade reading, White students in DC outperform White students in Mississippi. For 8th grade reading, Black students in DC outperform Black students in Mississippi.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

DP. Thanks for the useful perspective. I'm another parent who always felt that pressure to give more to teachers, and it can not only be exhausting, but it can also influence how people feel about teaching as a profession. There are multiple inconsistent messages when it comes to schools and the roles parents play in supporting teachers, and at times, it can be deflating to feel pressured to give donations or make meals, or whatever when you are struggling to meet the demands of your own job plus that comes with none of those signs of appreciation on top of supporting teachers.

About teachers having to purchase their own supplies - I just don't understand why that is. It's ridiculous. At the same time, I have, from time to time, become frustrated certain aspects of the job, whether it's purchasing supplies or being underpaid or weaponized against parents to the effect of: "why should I have to ______ (fill in the blank with a core function of the job like responding to an email within a reasonable time), when I have to buy my own supplies/don't make enough money." I mean, when my kids were younger, I made less money than many of their teachers, worked way more hours, barely was able to take time off, used some of my time off to answer pleas from the school for help or chaperones, and contributed hundreds of dollars worth of supplies per classroom, and still performed my own job professionally. I hate having problems like a lack of supplies weaponized with little appreciation of how many parents actually make contributions to their kids' classrooms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

Comparing cities to states doesn't usually yield useful information. In any case, NAEP publishes state and DC performance by race. The main difference in why Mississippi seems to perform higher than DC is the proportion of students by race and the very disparate performance by race.

Mississippi public school students are about half White and half Black. For Mississippi, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 35% proficient and above. For Black students it is 10%.

In DC, public school students are 65% Black and 15% White (the rest are Hispanic and other). For DC, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 70% proficient and above. For Black students it is 14%.

For 8th grade reading, White students in DC outperform White students in Mississippi. For 8th grade reading, Black students in DC outperform Black students in Mississippi.

Seems like the only salient fact here is that DC spends a gazillion times more money on schools than Mississippi and gets worse results. Kids here deserve a whole lot more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

DP. Thanks for the useful perspective. I'm another parent who always felt that pressure to give more to teachers, and it can not only be exhausting, but it can also influence how people feel about teaching as a profession. There are multiple inconsistent messages when it comes to schools and the roles parents play in supporting teachers, and at times, it can be deflating to feel pressured to give donations or make meals, or whatever when you are struggling to meet the demands of your own job plus that comes with none of those signs of appreciation on top of supporting teachers.

About teachers having to purchase their own supplies - I just don't understand why that is. It's ridiculous. At the same time, I have, from time to time, become frustrated certain aspects of the job, whether it's purchasing supplies or being underpaid or weaponized against parents to the effect of: "why should I have to ______ (fill in the blank with a core function of the job like responding to an email within a reasonable time), when I have to buy my own supplies/don't make enough money." I mean, when my kids were younger, I made less money than many of their teachers, worked way more hours, barely was able to take time off, used some of my time off to answer pleas from the school for help or chaperones, and contributed hundreds of dollars worth of supplies per classroom, and still performed my own job professionally. I hate having problems like a lack of supplies weaponized with little appreciation of how many parents actually make contributions to their kids' classrooms.

I haven’t personally weaponized how much I pay for classroom supplies, but I’ll mention it here on an anonymous forum. I quietly spent about $900 last year on general supplies (tissues, paper, pens, cleaning wipes, etc) and curriculum supplies (class set of workbooks and novels). This is a major point of friction in my marriage and I’m rather embarrassed by how much I need to spend. And no, I don’t go overboard. This isn’t for posters or comfy chairs, etc.

I do have a couple parents each year who are AMAZING and have shared this burden. I am so deeply appreciative of the unsolicited offers to support the classroom. My school provides me with very little. So THANK YOU for the support. I’m sorry you’ve felt it has been weaponized by other teachers. That’s not fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

DP. Thanks for the useful perspective. I'm another parent who always felt that pressure to give more to teachers, and it can not only be exhausting, but it can also influence how people feel about teaching as a profession. There are multiple inconsistent messages when it comes to schools and the roles parents play in supporting teachers, and at times, it can be deflating to feel pressured to give donations or make meals, or whatever when you are struggling to meet the demands of your own job plus that comes with none of those signs of appreciation on top of supporting teachers.

About teachers having to purchase their own supplies - I just don't understand why that is. It's ridiculous. At the same time, I have, from time to time, become frustrated certain aspects of the job, whether it's purchasing supplies or being underpaid or weaponized against parents to the effect of: "why should I have to ______ (fill in the blank with a core function of the job like responding to an email within a reasonable time), when I have to buy my own supplies/don't make enough money." I mean, when my kids were younger, I made less money than many of their teachers, worked way more hours, barely was able to take time off, used some of my time off to answer pleas from the school for help or chaperones, and contributed hundreds of dollars worth of supplies per classroom, and still performed my own job professionally. I hate having problems like a lack of supplies weaponized with little appreciation of how many parents actually make contributions to their kids' classrooms.

I haven’t personally weaponized how much I pay for classroom supplies, but I’ll mention it here on an anonymous forum. I quietly spent about $900 last year on general supplies (tissues, paper, pens, cleaning wipes, etc) and curriculum supplies (class set of workbooks and novels). This is a major point of friction in my marriage and I’m rather embarrassed by how much I need to spend. And no, I don’t go overboard. This isn’t for posters or comfy chairs, etc.

I do have a couple parents each year who are AMAZING and have shared this burden. I am so deeply appreciative of the unsolicited offers to support the classroom. My school provides me with very little. So THANK YOU for the support. I’m sorry you’ve felt it has been weaponized by other teachers. That’s not fair.

To be clear, this is awful and a burden no teacher should bear. We should fund our schools adequately and not ask employees to pay for things management is supposed to provide. This seems like such a basic premise, that I doubt there is much of a debate here.

That is different, however, from the broader question of whether teachers are well-paid. I think the general consensus is that no, they are not, but in DC they are. There seems to be semi-consensus on that, except for what I perceive to be some teachers who insist they aren't paid enough. Opponents of that view point to pension benefits, summer time off, and other sizable non-salary perks. Finally, there is an undercurrent of teachers who perceive they are unappreciated by uninformed parents/taxpayers, and who insist in every thread to emphasize that they work after school-hours too. This falls completely on deaf ears as most of the working world actually does work outside of official work hours. We probably aren't technically required to do, but it is a basic performance requirement. And then as a coda, the teachers who refuse to respond to emails in a timely manner or after-hours are just offensive to the rest of us who would rightly be fired if we adopted such a dismissive and antagonistic stance.

So, thank you for paying for school supplies. You absolutely shouldn't have to do it. It is wrong, and it should be fixed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

Comparing cities to states doesn't usually yield useful information. In any case, NAEP publishes state and DC performance by race. The main difference in why Mississippi seems to perform higher than DC is the proportion of students by race and the very disparate performance by race.

Mississippi public school students are about half White and half Black. For Mississippi, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 35% proficient and above. For Black students it is 10%.

In DC, public school students are 65% Black and 15% White (the rest are Hispanic and other). For DC, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 70% proficient and above. For Black students it is 14%.

For 8th grade reading, White students in DC outperform White students in Mississippi. For 8th grade reading, Black students in DC outperform Black students in Mississippi.

Seems like the only salient fact here is that DC spends a gazillion times more money on schools than Mississippi and gets worse results. Kids here deserve a whole lot more.

Kids here do better than kids in Mississippi - at least when examining 8th grade scores. I realize that analysis isn't a strong point for everyone but the data is quite clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

DP. Thanks for the useful perspective. I'm another parent who always felt that pressure to give more to teachers, and it can not only be exhausting, but it can also influence how people feel about teaching as a profession. There are multiple inconsistent messages when it comes to schools and the roles parents play in supporting teachers, and at times, it can be deflating to feel pressured to give donations or make meals, or whatever when you are struggling to meet the demands of your own job plus that comes with none of those signs of appreciation on top of supporting teachers.

About teachers having to purchase their own supplies - I just don't understand why that is. It's ridiculous. At the same time, I have, from time to time, become frustrated certain aspects of the job, whether it's purchasing supplies or being underpaid or weaponized against parents to the effect of: "why should I have to ______ (fill in the blank with a core function of the job like responding to an email within a reasonable time), when I have to buy my own supplies/don't make enough money." I mean, when my kids were younger, I made less money than many of their teachers, worked way more hours, barely was able to take time off, used some of my time off to answer pleas from the school for help or chaperones, and contributed hundreds of dollars worth of supplies per classroom, and still performed my own job professionally. I hate having problems like a lack of supplies weaponized with little appreciation of how many parents actually make contributions to their kids' classrooms.

I haven’t personally weaponized how much I pay for classroom supplies, but I’ll mention it here on an anonymous forum. I quietly spent about $900 last year on general supplies (tissues, paper, pens, cleaning wipes, etc) and curriculum supplies (class set of workbooks and novels). This is a major point of friction in my marriage and I’m rather embarrassed by how much I need to spend. And no, I don’t go overboard. This isn’t for posters or comfy chairs, etc.

I do have a couple parents each year who are AMAZING and have shared this burden. I am so deeply appreciative of the unsolicited offers to support the classroom. My school provides me with very little. So THANK YOU for the support. I’m sorry you’ve felt it has been weaponized by other teachers. That’s not fair.

To be clear, this is awful and a burden no teacher should bear. We should fund our schools adequately and not ask employees to pay for things management is supposed to provide. This seems like such a basic premise, that I doubt there is much of a debate here.

That is different, however, from the broader question of whether teachers are well-paid. I think the general consensus is that no, they are not, but in DC they are. There seems to be semi-consensus on that, except for what I perceive to be some teachers who insist they aren't paid enough. Opponents of that view point to pension benefits, summer time off, and other sizable non-salary perks. Finally, there is an undercurrent of teachers who perceive they are unappreciated by uninformed parents/taxpayers, and who insist in every thread to emphasize that they work after school-hours too. This falls completely on deaf ears as most of the working world actually does work outside of official work hours. We probably aren't technically required to do, but it is a basic performance requirement. And then as a coda, the teachers who refuse to respond to emails in a timely manner or after-hours are just offensive to the rest of us who would rightly be fired if we adopted such a dismissive and antagonistic stance.

So, thank you for paying for school supplies. You absolutely shouldn't have to do it. It is wrong, and it should be fixed.

This.

If you get a salary, regardless of the profession, you work until the work is done, and no one cares if it's "afterhours."

If you want to be paid by the hour, go work at McDonald's.

[Anonymous]

What is timely to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

DP. Thanks for the useful perspective. I'm another parent who always felt that pressure to give more to teachers, and it can not only be exhausting, but it can also influence how people feel about teaching as a profession. There are multiple inconsistent messages when it comes to schools and the roles parents play in supporting teachers, and at times, it can be deflating to feel pressured to give donations or make meals, or whatever when you are struggling to meet the demands of your own job plus that comes with none of those signs of appreciation on top of supporting teachers.

About teachers having to purchase their own supplies - I just don't understand why that is. It's ridiculous. At the same time, I have, from time to time, become frustrated certain aspects of the job, whether it's purchasing supplies or being underpaid or weaponized against parents to the effect of: "why should I have to ______ (fill in the blank with a core function of the job like responding to an email within a reasonable time), when I have to buy my own supplies/don't make enough money." I mean, when my kids were younger, I made less money than many of their teachers, worked way more hours, barely was able to take time off, used some of my time off to answer pleas from the school for help or chaperones, and contributed hundreds of dollars worth of supplies per classroom, and still performed my own job professionally. I hate having problems like a lack of supplies weaponized with little appreciation of how many parents actually make contributions to their kids' classrooms.

I haven’t personally weaponized how much I pay for classroom supplies, but I’ll mention it here on an anonymous forum. I quietly spent about $900 last year on general supplies (tissues, paper, pens, cleaning wipes, etc) and curriculum supplies (class set of workbooks and novels). This is a major point of friction in my marriage and I’m rather embarrassed by how much I need to spend. And no, I don’t go overboard. This isn’t for posters or comfy chairs, etc.

I do have a couple parents each year who are AMAZING and have shared this burden. I am so deeply appreciative of the unsolicited offers to support the classroom. My school provides me with very little. So THANK YOU for the support. I’m sorry you’ve felt it has been weaponized by other teachers. That’s not fair.

To be clear, this is awful and a burden no teacher should bear. We should fund our schools adequately and not ask employees to pay for things management is supposed to provide. This seems like such a basic premise, that I doubt there is much of a debate here.

That is different, however, from the broader question of whether teachers are well-paid. I think the general consensus is that no, they are not, but in DC they are. There seems to be semi-consensus on that, except for what I perceive to be some teachers who insist they aren't paid enough. Opponents of that view point to pension benefits, summer time off, and other sizable non-salary perks. Finally, there is an undercurrent of teachers who perceive they are unappreciated by uninformed parents/taxpayers, and who insist in every thread to emphasize that they work after school-hours too. This falls completely on deaf ears as most of the working world actually does work outside of official work hours. We probably aren't technically required to do, but it is a basic performance requirement. And then as a coda, the teachers who refuse to respond to emails in a timely manner or after-hours are just offensive to the rest of us who would rightly be fired if we adopted such a dismissive and antagonistic stance.

So, thank you for paying for school supplies. You absolutely shouldn't have to do it. It is wrong, and it should be fixed.

This.

If you get a salary, regardless of the profession, you work until the work is done, and no one cares if it's "afterhours."

If you want to be paid by the hour, go work at McDonald's.

There’s currently a thread in the jobs forum about working outside of hours. Plenty of people from various professions are writing that they won’t do it, including a doctor saying he/she needs to be “paid enough to care” if they are expected to come in early. Others say they’ll only do it for overtime pay, and yet others say they’ll only put in their 40 because it’s “just work.”

Yes, there are professions that work extra. I’m certain there are other professions, like teaching, that are only sustained through a reliance on this unpaid work.

That doesn’t make it okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

Let me tell you that ECE teachers making 100K is the BARE minimum they deserve for the jobs they do. Yes, they are making significantly more than other ECE teachers in other places. That fact just says how little we value caretakers and women who work with children. Working in ECE takes as much or more talent, work and knowledge as it does to teach Calculus. I guarantee that if you took pretty much any CEO with some "big job", they'd run away crying from how hard teaching ECE is. Imo, ECE teachers should start at 100K everywhere. It should be the federally mandated pay across the country. Same with those who teach special ed.

And yet the schools here are terrible. Kids here do worse on math and reading tests than kids in MISSISSIPPI.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

This seems like the bigger issue.

It also seems curious that Mississippi spends a small fraction of what DC does on schools, and their students do better than ours.

Comparing cities to states doesn't usually yield useful information. In any case, NAEP publishes state and DC performance by race. The main difference in why Mississippi seems to perform higher than DC is the proportion of students by race and the very disparate performance by race.

Mississippi public school students are about half White and half Black. For Mississippi, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 35% proficient and above. For Black students it is 10%.

In DC, public school students are 65% Black and 15% White (the rest are Hispanic and other). For DC, White NAEP 8th reading performance is 70% proficient and above. For Black students it is 14%.

For 8th grade reading, White students in DC outperform White students in Mississippi. For 8th grade reading, Black students in DC outperform Black students in Mississippi.

Seems like the only salient fact here is that DC spends a gazillion times more money on schools than Mississippi and gets worse results. Kids here deserve a whole lot more.

Kids here do better than kids in Mississippi - at least when examining 8th grade scores. I realize that analysis isn't a strong point for everyone but the data is quite clear.

You can see where DC ranks in math and proficiency scores here. It's not pretty. We are consistently among the very worst in the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/24/us/math-reading-scores-pandemic.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

DP. Thanks for the useful perspective. I'm another parent who always felt that pressure to give more to teachers, and it can not only be exhausting, but it can also influence how people feel about teaching as a profession. There are multiple inconsistent messages when it comes to schools and the roles parents play in supporting teachers, and at times, it can be deflating to feel pressured to give donations or make meals, or whatever when you are struggling to meet the demands of your own job plus that comes with none of those signs of appreciation on top of supporting teachers.

About teachers having to purchase their own supplies - I just don't understand why that is. It's ridiculous. At the same time, I have, from time to time, become frustrated certain aspects of the job, whether it's purchasing supplies or being underpaid or weaponized against parents to the effect of: "why should I have to ______ (fill in the blank with a core function of the job like responding to an email within a reasonable time), when I have to buy my own supplies/don't make enough money." I mean, when my kids were younger, I made less money than many of their teachers, worked way more hours, barely was able to take time off, used some of my time off to answer pleas from the school for help or chaperones, and contributed hundreds of dollars worth of supplies per classroom, and still performed my own job professionally. I hate having problems like a lack of supplies weaponized with little appreciation of how many parents actually make contributions to their kids' classrooms.

I haven’t personally weaponized how much I pay for classroom supplies, but I’ll mention it here on an anonymous forum. I quietly spent about $900 last year on general supplies (tissues, paper, pens, cleaning wipes, etc) and curriculum supplies (class set of workbooks and novels). This is a major point of friction in my marriage and I’m rather embarrassed by how much I need to spend. And no, I don’t go overboard. This isn’t for posters or comfy chairs, etc.

I do have a couple parents each year who are AMAZING and have shared this burden. I am so deeply appreciative of the unsolicited offers to support the classroom. My school provides me with very little. So THANK YOU for the support. I’m sorry you’ve felt it has been weaponized by other teachers. That’s not fair.

To be clear, this is awful and a burden no teacher should bear. We should fund our schools adequately and not ask employees to pay for things management is supposed to provide. This seems like such a basic premise, that I doubt there is much of a debate here.

That is different, however, from the broader question of whether teachers are well-paid. I think the general consensus is that no, they are not, but in DC they are. There seems to be semi-consensus on that, except for what I perceive to be some teachers who insist they aren't paid enough. Opponents of that view point to pension benefits, summer time off, and other sizable non-salary perks. Finally, there is an undercurrent of teachers who perceive they are unappreciated by uninformed parents/taxpayers, and who insist in every thread to emphasize that they work after school-hours too. This falls completely on deaf ears as most of the working world actually does work outside of official work hours. We probably aren't technically required to do, but it is a basic performance requirement. And then as a coda, the teachers who refuse to respond to emails in a timely manner or after-hours are just offensive to the rest of us who would rightly be fired if we adopted such a dismissive and antagonistic stance.

So, thank you for paying for school supplies. You absolutely shouldn't have to do it. It is wrong, and it should be fixed.

This.

If you get a salary, regardless of the profession, you work until the work is done, and no one cares if it's "afterhours."

If you want to be paid by the hour, go work at McDonald's.

There’s currently a thread in the jobs forum about working outside of hours. Plenty of people from various professions are writing that they won’t do it, including a doctor saying he/she needs to be “paid enough to care” if they are expected to come in early. Others say they’ll only do it for overtime pay, and yet others say they’ll only put in their 40 because it’s “just work.”

Yes, there are professions that work extra. I’m certain there are other professions, like teaching, that are only sustained through a reliance on this unpaid work.

That doesn’t make it okay.

It's not unpaid. They get a salary -- an extremely generous one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just read this in David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" that may explain some of the vibes here.

he's talking in this section about how capitalism has created this "principle of inverse relation of compensation and social benefit" --- basically, the larger the social benefit and contribution of your job, the less money you are allowed to demand. Very twisted, IMO.

"teachers perform a vitally necessary function, yet have the temerity to demand middle-class lifestyles. They are the objects of a special ire, I suspect, by those trapped in soul-desroying low- and middle-level bullshit jobs."

Is this surprising, given that many of those soul-destroying jobs are lower paid than teaching, and also do not come with two months off during the summer and other breaks throughout the year? And then to hear teachers making $130k say that's not enough and act like they're working harder than anyone else?

I don’t know a single teacher making anywhere remotely near $130K (or even over $100K). Can we stop using the extreme top of a pay scale that most people NEVER see as an “average” salary? It’s disingenuous.

This thread dis not about teachers "anywhere." It's about teachers in DCPS, who make more than teachers elsewhere. It's very frustrating that teachers from other jurisdictions keep coming into the thread and getting mad and saying "but I am not well paid!" Yes, well, we aren't talking about you. As a profession, teachers absolutely ARE underpaid. Teachers in red states often make what are essentially poverty wages because of underinvestment in education. It's a real problem.

But teachers in DCPS are among the highest paid in the country. And yes, some of that pay is due to bonuses for being "highly effective" and that's not guaranteed, but some teachers absolutely avail themselves of it and yes there are teachers who meet the requirement.

ECE teachers in DCPS are particularly well paid. If you have a master degree in early childhood education, you can make over 100k within 10 years of teaching. That's amazing. Go talk to preschool and kindergarten teachers in other areas and ask how that sounds to them. DCPS has invested heavily in its ECE programs and that shows up in an incredibly strong ECE offering throughout the system, even at schools that really struggle with the upper grades, and some phenomenally good ECE instruction. This is not a criticism, it's actually evidence of what can happen if you are willing to financially reward top performers.

Anyway, this thread is not about the average teaching salary. It's not even about the average teaching salary in DCPS, because averaging everyone's salaries across the whole system would be incredibly misleading, given how much pay can vary depending on credentials, impact, and tenure. The thread is about the fact (and it is a fact) that DCPS actually pays teachers pretty well. That doesn't mean teaching in DCPS is easy, that the district is well run, or even that DCPS teachers don't deserve more in an absolute sense based on the vital service they perform.

And yet….those teachers don’t all come here.

Of course not! Why would every teacher move to DC?! Not all teachers want to live here. Not all teachers want to work with large at-risk populations. There are also nuances of DCPS that won't appeal-- the district has a shorter summer break than many districts. Some people don't like the weather. Many people choose to stay close to family or where they went to college.

The idea that DCPS must be underpaying teachers because they don't receive applications from literally every teacher is insane.

Most teachers don’t live in DC…
I didn’t say teachers are underpaid, the pay is average for DC. Police, firefighters, doctors, etc. make just as much and more. No one is creating a thread about their pay when they ask for raises, which they all do. The pay in NYC is also ‘high’ for teachers, it’s expensive!

The premise of this whole argument is ‘teachers are paid well, don’t ask for gifts.’
There are currently 80 open teacher positions in DCPS right now, all year there’s always around that number.
Are there that many in any other sector of DC?

Obviously the pay is fine, no one can argue teachers aren’t paid well. It’s the way in which some people argue about it.


TEACHERS DESERVE THE CURRENT SALARY OR MORE. If you don’t want to give a gift no one cares, appreciation is free. But it’s clear OP doesn’t even do that.

OP is talking about the pressure often put on parents to support teachers financially. As a parent with kids in public school, I do feel pressured to give gifts to teachers multiple times a year, Stock the teacher's lounge with food, contribute to appreciation events, etc. it is a common refrain that teachers don't make very much money and must be in it for their love of teaching and kids.

But many teachers make more than I do (I make 85k/yr and have been in the same field for 20 years, and have a graduate degree). I definitely appreciate what they do and am happy to write thank you notes and encourage my kids to do the same. I also put effort into making sure my kids show up to school prepared and well-behaved, and volunteer at the school when my work schedule allows. But it doesn't make sense for me to be spending money to support people who make about what I do, or more. It's weird to have that expectation and to lean on parents in the heavy handed way that PTA's sometimes do. I've never felt compelled to give a police officer or fire fighter a gift card or make sure they have free lunches and snacks. That's the difference.

Teachers do not have this expectation. Please don’t put this on yourself.

I receive gift cards from 2-3 students a year out of 150 students, and I’m a popular core subject teacher. I don’t expect it, nor do I need it. (I do appreciate “thank you” letters for college recommendation letters, but that’s a different subject. I also don’t get many of those… maybe 1 out of 50 students.)

Do not feel pressured. I don’t give cards for my own kids’ teachers because I know they aren’t expected. Instead, I write appreciation emails to their principals when I think they are doing great jobs.

DP. Thanks for the useful perspective. I'm another parent who always felt that pressure to give more to teachers, and it can not only be exhausting, but it can also influence how people feel about teaching as a profession. There are multiple inconsistent messages when it comes to schools and the roles parents play in supporting teachers, and at times, it can be deflating to feel pressured to give donations or make meals, or whatever when you are struggling to meet the demands of your own job plus that comes with none of those signs of appreciation on top of supporting teachers.

About teachers having to purchase their own supplies - I just don't understand why that is. It's ridiculous. At the same time, I have, from time to time, become frustrated certain aspects of the job, whether it's purchasing supplies or being underpaid or weaponized against parents to the effect of: "why should I have to ______ (fill in the blank with a core function of the job like responding to an email within a reasonable time), when I have to buy my own supplies/don't make enough money." I mean, when my kids were younger, I made less money than many of their teachers, worked way more hours, barely was able to take time off, used some of my time off to answer pleas from the school for help or chaperones, and contributed hundreds of dollars worth of supplies per classroom, and still performed my own job professionally. I hate having problems like a lack of supplies weaponized with little appreciation of how many parents actually make contributions to their kids' classrooms.

I haven’t personally weaponized how much I pay for classroom supplies, but I’ll mention it here on an anonymous forum. I quietly spent about $900 last year on general supplies (tissues, paper, pens, cleaning wipes, etc) and curriculum supplies (class set of workbooks and novels). This is a major point of friction in my marriage and I’m rather embarrassed by how much I need to spend. And no, I don’t go overboard. This isn’t for posters or comfy chairs, etc.

I do have a couple parents each year who are AMAZING and have shared this burden. I am so deeply appreciative of the unsolicited offers to support the classroom. My school provides me with very little. So THANK YOU for the support. I’m sorry you’ve felt it has been weaponized by other teachers. That’s not fair.

To be clear, this is awful and a burden no teacher should bear. We should fund our schools adequately and not ask employees to pay for things management is supposed to provide. This seems like such a basic premise, that I doubt there is much of a debate here.

That is different, however, from the broader question of whether teachers are well-paid. I think the general consensus is that no, they are not, but in DC they are. There seems to be semi-consensus on that, except for what I perceive to be some teachers who insist they aren't paid enough. Opponents of that view point to pension benefits, summer time off, and other sizable non-salary perks. Finally, there is an undercurrent of teachers who perceive they are unappreciated by uninformed parents/taxpayers, and who insist in every thread to emphasize that they work after school-hours too. This falls completely on deaf ears as most of the working world actually does work outside of official work hours. We probably aren't technically required to do, but it is a basic performance requirement. And then as a coda, the teachers who refuse to respond to emails in a timely manner or after-hours are just offensive to the rest of us who would rightly be fired if we adopted such a dismissive and antagonistic stance.

So, thank you for paying for school supplies. You absolutely shouldn't have to do it. It is wrong, and it should be fixed.

This.

If you get a salary, regardless of the profession, you work until the work is done, and no one cares if it's "afterhours."

If you want to be paid by the hour, go work at McDonald's.

There’s currently a thread in the jobs forum about working outside of hours. Plenty of people from various professions are writing that they won’t do it, including a doctor saying he/she needs to be “paid enough to care” if they are expected to come in early. Others say they’ll only do it for overtime pay, and yet others say they’ll only put in their 40 because it’s “just work.”

Yes, there are professions that work extra. I’m certain there are other professions, like teaching, that are only sustained through a reliance on this unpaid work.

That doesn’t make it okay.

It's not unpaid. They get a salary -- an extremely generous one.

To clarify, teachers should be expected to spend their nights and weekends working? (And where is this generous salary? I get paid 70K and teachers newer than me get less. We’ve already established that $100K+ salaries are the top of the DC pay scale and not representative of most teachers’ salaries, even in DCPS.)

The job simply can’t be done in 40 hours. It can’t. It isn’t set up to be sustainable. What other professional is expected to give 30-35 hours of presentations a week with absolutely no time at work dedicated to preparing these presentations or debriefing after them? If you were in a profession that expected you to do half your work at home, would you accept those conditions?

This is one of the major reasons teachers are fleeing. It’s not sustainable and it is an unreasonable expectation.