What would it ACTUALLY take for you to consider biking or taking the bus, in lieu of motoring?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I would need affordable housing and better schools in DC to live near enough to my job to bike.

For metro: I suppose I could drive and park at the metro and then metro to work - but that would take longer than driving and cost more than gas (I get free parking at work).

This is a major factor in people's choices. When there is free parking, people are more likely to choose to drive by themselves than when they have to pay for parking.

That people take cost into consideration of their choices is not revolutionary insight. Time is also a cost that people take into consideration, which is something that you don’t seem to understand.

OP's question is: What would it ACTUALLY take for you to consider biking or taking the bus, in lieu of motoring?

So one answer is: if people who currently don't have to pay for parking would have to pay for parking.

However, life is offing hard enough as it is, and we shouldn't use sticks when we can use carrots to shape behavior, especially when what we'd consider as carrots is the bare GD minimum public service in Capitals around the world.
Let's continue to make it easier to use transportation modes that aren't cars. Take the burden of transporting thousands of independent kids to school away from parents in their personally-owned vehicles. Continue to grow public transit and protected bike lanes so that as they become safer and more convenient, they become the obvious choices.

The only "stick" we really need to step us is enforcement of traffic rules in the city, including ensuring MD and VA scofflaw drivers with tens of thousand of dollars in unpaid tickets for their dangerous driving and parking habits pay those tickets and fix their behavior.

We can use sticks as well as carrots. In setting policy, we usually do use sticks as well as carrots. If you even think it's a stick to stop subsidizing "free" parking, vs. simply removal of a carrot to reward driving.

A company providing their employees parking is not a “subsidy”.

Of course it's a subsidy: a parking subsidy. Under certain circumstances, it's even a considered a fringe benefit by the tax code. Just like it's a transit subsidy for my employer to pay for my Metro fare.

It’s not a subsidy if the parking space has a market value of $0.

It doesn't, though. Just like there's no such thing as a free lunch, there's also no such thing as free parking.

http://shoup.bol.ucla.edu/PrefaceHighCostFreeParking.pdf

I didn’t say the space didn’t cost anything to build or maintain. I said it had a market value of $0. If the thing an employer gives an employee has no market value then there’s no subsidy. You really don’t seem to know anything about economics.

If it has a market value of $0 then someone gets it for $0 and nobody else gets it.

So what? The next person will just get a different space. If the space has a market value of $0 do you think there’s a surplus or a shortage? Answer carefully. Your housing policy preferences depend on it.

too late at $0 I've bought them all.

[Anonymous]

Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

When you look at an actual geographical map of METRO it makes it clear its like a mixed regional rail / local subway system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

When you look at an actual geographical map of METRO it makes it clear its like a mixed regional rail / local subway system.

Agreed, but there simply are not going to be Metro stops at in-DC densities in the suburbs, plus the further out you go, the longer it takes to get there on Metro. It's already a long trip to Shady Grove (or Glenmont). The extension to Germantown would be an even longer trip, at a high construction cost, and it doesn't make sense financially or transportationally because MARC already goes to Germantown and will get you there faster. Or at least it would get you there faster if it ran as often as Metro North/NJ transit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

When you look at an actual geographical map of METRO it makes it clear its like a mixed regional rail / local subway system.

Agreed, but there simply are not going to be Metro stops at in-DC densities in the suburbs, plus the further out you go, the longer it takes to get there on Metro. It's already a long trip to Shady Grove (or Glenmont). The extension to Germantown would be an even longer trip, at a high construction cost, and it doesn't make sense financially or transportationally because MARC already goes to Germantown and will get you there faster. Or at least it would get you there faster if it ran as often as Metro North/NJ transit.

But even in DC, the density isn't adequate. We live in Langston/Kingman Park area area. There's a metro and a bus and a streetcar, but metro would be faster if we had a station at Oklahoma Ave (was protested years ago) and metro closer to where we work. Kids go to school/daycare on Capitol Hill and I work on Children's/Medstar campus which has shuttles to/from a couple metro stations, but those add time on to the commute. Spouse works in Virginia. With two full time jobs and two kids, it is faster and far more efficient to drive than metro/bus/streetcar . When it's faster to do public transportation, we'd do it, but it's not logistical for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

When you look at an actual geographical map of METRO it makes it clear its like a mixed regional rail / local subway system.

Agreed, but there simply are not going to be Metro stops at in-DC densities in the suburbs, plus the further out you go, the longer it takes to get there on Metro. It's already a long trip to Shady Grove (or Glenmont). The extension to Germantown would be an even longer trip, at a high construction cost, and it doesn't make sense financially or transportationally because MARC already goes to Germantown and will get you there faster. Or at least it would get you there faster if it ran as often as Metro North/NJ transit.

But even in DC, the density isn't adequate. We live in Langston/Kingman Park area area. There's a metro and a bus and a streetcar, but metro would be faster if we had a station at Oklahoma Ave (was protested years ago) and metro closer to where we work. Kids go to school/daycare on Capitol Hill and I work on Children's/Medstar campus which has shuttles to/from a couple metro stations, but those add time on to the commute. Spouse works in Virginia. With two full time jobs and two kids, it is faster and far more efficient to drive than metro/bus/streetcar . When it's faster to do public transportation, we'd do it, but it's not logistical for us.

The more subway stations a subway stops at, the slower the subway is...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

When you look at an actual geographical map of METRO it makes it clear its like a mixed regional rail / local subway system.

Agreed, but there simply are not going to be Metro stops at in-DC densities in the suburbs, plus the further out you go, the longer it takes to get there on Metro. It's already a long trip to Shady Grove (or Glenmont). The extension to Germantown would be an even longer trip, at a high construction cost, and it doesn't make sense financially or transportationally because MARC already goes to Germantown and will get you there faster. Or at least it would get you there faster if it ran as often as Metro North/NJ transit.

But even in DC, the density isn't adequate. We live in Langston/Kingman Park area area. There's a metro and a bus and a streetcar, but metro would be faster if we had a station at Oklahoma Ave (was protested years ago) and metro closer to where we work. Kids go to school/daycare on Capitol Hill and I work on Children's/Medstar campus which has shuttles to/from a couple metro stations, but those add time on to the commute. Spouse works in Virginia. With two full time jobs and two kids, it is faster and far more efficient to drive than metro/bus/streetcar . When it's faster to do public transportation, we'd do it, but it's not logistical for us.

The more subway stations a subway stops at, the slower the subway is...

Yet more folks would use it as there are vast areas of DC that people live and cannot/do not use a subway and taking a bus is not faster/more efficient than a personal vehicle. My commute would be 1.5 hours each way vs. about 30-45 min. Full time working parent, I don't have excess time to spare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

When you look at an actual geographical map of METRO it makes it clear its like a mixed regional rail / local subway system.

Agreed, but there simply are not going to be Metro stops at in-DC densities in the suburbs, plus the further out you go, the longer it takes to get there on Metro. It's already a long trip to Shady Grove (or Glenmont). The extension to Germantown would be an even longer trip, at a high construction cost, and it doesn't make sense financially or transportationally because MARC already goes to Germantown and will get you there faster. Or at least it would get you there faster if it ran as often as Metro North/NJ transit.

But even in DC, the density isn't adequate. We live in Langston/Kingman Park area area. There's a metro and a bus and a streetcar, but metro would be faster if we had a station at Oklahoma Ave (was protested years ago) and metro closer to where we work. Kids go to school/daycare on Capitol Hill and I work on Children's/Medstar campus which has shuttles to/from a couple metro stations, but those add time on to the commute. Spouse works in Virginia. With two full time jobs and two kids, it is faster and far more efficient to drive than metro/bus/streetcar . When it's faster to do public transportation, we'd do it, but it's not logistical for us.

The more subway stations a subway stops at, the slower the subway is...

Yet more folks would use it as there are vast areas of DC that people live and cannot/do not use a subway and taking a bus is not faster/more efficient than a personal vehicle. My commute would be 1.5 hours each way vs. about 30-45 min. Full time working parent, I don't have excess time to spare.

The solution isn't more Metro stations, it's faster buses. Of course the buses aren't faster when they have to stop all the time AND they get stuck in the traffic of people driving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Metro stations, metro stations, metro stations.

DC's metro stops are not frequent or convenient enough and I hate the bus.

I grew up in the NYC area and people primarily use Metro North/NJ transit trains to get in/out of the city and around the city because it is by far more convenient and faster to do so.

That's unfortunately not true in the DC area.

The analogy in the DC area is MARC and VRE.

When you look at an actual geographical map of METRO it makes it clear its like a mixed regional rail / local subway system.

Agreed, but there simply are not going to be Metro stops at in-DC densities in the suburbs, plus the further out you go, the longer it takes to get there on Metro. It's already a long trip to Shady Grove (or Glenmont). The extension to Germantown would be an even longer trip, at a high construction cost, and it doesn't make sense financially or transportationally because MARC already goes to Germantown and will get you there faster. Or at least it would get you there faster if it ran as often as Metro North/NJ transit.

But even in DC, the density isn't adequate. We live in Langston/Kingman Park area area. There's a metro and a bus and a streetcar, but metro would be faster if we had a station at Oklahoma Ave (was protested years ago) and metro closer to where we work. Kids go to school/daycare on Capitol Hill and I work on Children's/Medstar campus which has shuttles to/from a couple metro stations, but those add time on to the commute. Spouse works in Virginia. With two full time jobs and two kids, it is faster and far more efficient to drive than metro/bus/streetcar . When it's faster to do public transportation, we'd do it, but it's not logistical for us.

The more subway stations a subway stops at, the slower the subway is...

But still more efficient than driving.

Look at the NYC area subway map which doesn't even include the various train lines that go into Penn and Grand Central from the burbs. This is what prompts people to use public transportation rather than drive - because it is more efficient and so much easier to get to any subway from wherever you live.

[Anonymous]

three less kids, no sports equipment, no errands

[Anonymous]

Ideally I’d like to wait no more than 6 minutes for a bus, but most of all, I’d like posted bus times to be accurate. There are only so many times you can wait for a bus that’s initially 3 minutes away, then 10, and then out of service before you give up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But still more efficient than driving.

Look at the NYC area subway map which doesn't even include the various train lines that go into Penn and Grand Central from the burbs. This is what prompts people to use public transportation rather than drive - because it is more efficient and so much easier to get to any subway from wherever you live.

Well, that, plus owning a car is expensive and driving and parking are both hassles...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ideally I’d like to wait no more than 6 minutes for a bus, but most of all, I’d like posted bus times to be accurate. There are only so many times you can wait for a bus that’s initially 3 minutes away, then 10, and then out of service before you give up.

+1 busses are too unpredictable and slow. Metros are better but there isn't one nearby. Need to get kids to school and myself to work on time and DC traffic is more predictable than dealing with unknown waits with the bus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But still more efficient than driving.

Look at the NYC area subway map which doesn't even include the various train lines that go into Penn and Grand Central from the burbs. This is what prompts people to use public transportation rather than drive - because it is more efficient and so much easier to get to any subway from wherever you live.

Well, that, plus owning a car is expensive and driving and parking are both hassles...

Sure, but it's basically if car = faster/easier, people use car. If subway = faster/easier, people use subway. In NYC, subway is faster. In DC, unless you both live and work convenient to a metro (which is expensive for the average joe), car = faster/easier.