TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

100%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

You’re not arguing in good faith, so I shouldn’t dignify with a response, but I have concerns that the uninformed might take you seriously, so…

1) Your assertion about the 500 wealthiest families is simultaneously probably correct and completely irrelevant. The point is not that exam culture favors the wealthiest - it’s that it favors those with *enough* wealth to take advantage of its weaknesses.

And the population in Northern Virginia with the highest proportion of upper-middle class families is *absolutely* the South Asians, and they’re quite vocal and proud about it. And rightfully so! They came to this area to make their lives in the Dulles Tech Corridor and they deserve to be lauded for those accomplishments - but the expectation that the TJ admissions process should cater to their educational priorities is asinine.

2) Loudoun didn’t get about 70 spots. They got between 100-120 based on their proportion of 8th grade students in the catchment area. And those seats were approximately 90% Asian, the overwhelming majority of those were South Asian, and those numbers strongly paralleled the infamous “Curie List” students who indicated admission to both TJ and AOS/AET.

3) It’s completely false that no one tried to do anything about TJ admissions until it became majority-Asian. Do your homework (and don’t use ChatGPT like your kids do) and look up the moves that were attempted in the early and late 2000s, mostly led by the NAACP. TJ was about 65% white back in those days and there were plenty of conversations about opening access to TJ to families of lesser economic means.

Well said

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

We shouldn't be incentivizing parents of 10-12 years old to streamline their kids' childhoods for any one activity, whether it test prep, travel sports, a musical instrument or whatever the activity it is. Even the kids who are phenominally great at a particular activity should have other activities and interests they are allowed to pursue. Tiger Woods should have been doing more then just golf. The Williams Sisters should have been doing more then just tennis. Chess prodigies, musical prodigies should have other activities that they are allowed to pursue.

This isn't just an academic issue but a life issue. We are driving kids into one sport and a travel sport before they even get to MS because that is how you get a kid onm the HS team or the elite travel team and get a D1 scholarship or make it to the olympics. We drive kids into practicing an instrument X hours of the day and competing because that is how you get into the best music schools. We drive kids to prepare for tests in ES because that is how they get into the elite ES/programs/MS/HS.

It used to be that we encouraged kids to be well rounded. Kids played 2 or 3 sports through HS and then specialized in one sport for college. Kids were in band and practiced their instrument but they played a sport or did other activities. Kids took enrichment classes but there wasn't pressure to take HS classes in 6th grade. Heck, Algebra in 8th grade was seen as advanced.

This area is more academically intense than many other parts of the Country but the pressure on MC and UMC families to have their kid specialize in a sport or instrument or whatever so that they are attractive for colleges and hopefully get scholarships has gotten out of control. For whatever reason, most families seem to buy into the travel sports/summer swim type things and focus on the academic tracks as being out of control, but the truth is, it is all out of control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

We shouldn’t be incentivizing parents of 10-12 year olds to streamline their kids’ childhoods to do nothing but test prep and academic competitions. We shouldn’t be seeing kids giving up music, sports, and other activities during their formative years in order to optimize their resumes at the age of 13 for a process that overselects for exam performance.

This shouldn’t be controversial *at all*. I’m MASSIVELY pro-reform and even I acknowledge that there’s probably some role for testing in this process on some level - but unless you can figure out a way to do it that includes the ability to evaluate those scores in context, you can’t use them because the stats that they create will be misused to further some destructive narrative.

But who is actually doing that? The Asian "tiger parents" that I know not only have their kids in math enrichment and math competitions, but also have their kids playing a musical instrument at a high level, participating in some sport, taking language classes, and doing volunteer work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

If that were the driver (and it wasn't), they failed miserably. It's a race-blind process. The largest beneficiary of the changes was the Asian community. Asian enrollment at TJ is at a historical high, but regardless, they had to make these programs accessible to all county residents, not just kids from wealthy feeder schools and on that count they were successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

If that were the driver (and it wasn't), they failed miserably. It's a race-blind process. The largest beneficiary of the changes was the Asian community. Asian enrollment at TJ is at a historical high, but regardless, they had to make these programs accessible to all county residents, not just kids from wealthy feeder schools and on that count they were successful.

TJ was already accessible to all students across the county deserving of being admitted. They change the criteria to ensure quotas as each middle school, and in the process actually disadvantaged the highest achieving kids. The results are already starting to show the impact of that strategy, whether it's a huge reduction in the number of the National Merit Semifinalists or less impressive college admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

1) Let’s suppose for a moment that a primary driver of the admissions changes was racial diversity. Why does that bother you? Are you unfamiliar with the overwhelming peer-reviewed academic literature supporting the value of racial diversity in advanced academic spaces?

2) You’re trying to decouple test prep concerns and racial concerns. Why?

If that were the driver (and it wasn't), they failed miserably. It's a race-blind process. The largest beneficiary of the changes was the Asian community. Asian enrollment at TJ is at a historical high, but regardless, they had to make these programs accessible to all county residents, not just kids from wealthy feeder schools and on that count they were successful.

TJ was already accessible to all students across the county deserving of being admitted. They change the criteria to ensure quotas as each middle school, and in the process actually disadvantaged the highest achieving kids. The results are already starting to show the impact of that strategy, whether it's a huge reduction in the number of the National Merit Semifinalists or less impressive college admissions.

Having an allocation (not quota) for each school does not disadvantage the highest-achieving kids at those schools.

I’d be fine if they wanted to add SOL scored as an additional data point for identifying the top kids at each MS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s this strange implication that “wealth” is somehow separate from ability. And we are really just talking MC/UMC here. But it’s true that intelligence is a heritable trait. And it takes a bit of intelligence and hard work to be MC/UMC. This is no secret.

Sorry but people with money aren’t just a bunch of idiots with inheritances. And there aren’t a whole bunch of poor geniuses.

Kids who were admitted under the old TJ admissions process were mostly not prodigies. Plop those same kids into economically-disadvantaged families at birth and it's very unlikely that most would still end up at TJ.

And yet you have schools like stuyvesant, bronx science and brooklyn tech where most of the students are in fact from poor families.

NYC has a different admissions environment/process.

For TJ, less than 1% of the class of 2024 came from economically-disadvantaged families.

Yes, in NYC admissions is based purely on an admissions test.

They don't care that you can transcribe the compelling prepared essay about the the summer you spent at a robotics camp that ignited your passion for stem.

And frankly the FARM percentage is not really relevant. TJ is not an anti-poverty program.
If poor kids are not being prepared, then your problem is with to the people who are supposed to be preparing them, not the people that are pointing out that they are not prepared.

TJ serves the whole community, not just the families who have the means to game the system.

It's supposed to serve the smart kids regardless of race or income.

TJ used to have an average SAT score of 1520. What do you think it was for the class of 2025?

Given that the % ED has gone up 800% I’m guessing it will go down some.

SAT scores are correlated with wealth.

SAT scores are correlated to cognitive ability and cognitive ability is correlated to wealth.

OK, David Duke.

Accusations of racial in the absence of any racism is why we have trump as president. You're the reason we have this guy in the white house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ by environment, I primarily mean an extensive network of support for low-income families

What extensive network does NYC have?

The problem with FCPS providing support for per kids is that they are trying to achieve equal results not equal ability. And besides, they don't really care about income, just skin color.

They could have artificially achieved income diversity by explicitly preferencing income (which they did), they didn't have to get rid of the test for that. But they could not explicitly preference race and so they got rid of the test because objective testing is an obstacle to racial diversity.

They got rid of the test because wealthy people were getting an additional unfair advantage by prepping.

They had already changed the test to prevent this multiple times. But test prep companies continued to “crack” the test.

That's silly. We were there, we saw the board taking about racial diversity throughout the entire process. The backdrop of BLM let them push it through but it was all about race. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. If wealth determined how well you did on these tests why would Stuyvesant be 50% farm? How did TJ go from majority white to majority Asian?

Is this a serious question? Because the answer is wealthy Indian families concentrated in Loudoun and western Fairfax. They’re by FAR the wealthiest demographic in Northern Virginia.

GTFOH.

Of the 500 wealthiest family's in northern Virginia, they are overwhelmingly white. There may be a concentration of affluent Indian families in Loudon but they are not the wealthiest people in Fairfax. Not even close.

And even if they were, of the 500 spots at TJ under the old system, Loudon county got ~70 spots. The soft in demographics at TJ is because Asians showed up. That is what is causing the distribution that people want to counter.

There wasn't any political will to do anything when TJ was overwhelmingly white, that just seemed natural. Things didn't seem off until Asians started to crowd out white kids.

FALSE. The community has been concerned about test prep for decades…

2001:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2001/12/01/outsmarting-the-competition-into-thomas-jefferson-high/3f547eb4-a62d-439e-adbb-c409403deea6/

“attended a private learning center in Burke for test practice and admissions counseling -- even advice on elementary school extracurricular activities. “

"Families go through incredible behavior just to try to get their kids into Jefferson by moving into a particular area or renting a town house near Longfellow [Middle School] or others that they think will give them an edge."

“The frenzy highlights a current districtwide controversy about the admission process. Domenech wants to increase the number of students attending Jefferson from less affluent areas of the county”

For the first time, applicants who registered to take the test this year were given a 16-page booklet with test-taking strategies and sample questions.

"We knew that kids were getting help," said admissions coordinator Christel G. Payne, "and it just wasn't fair that a great deal knew what they were facing when they went in on Saturday morning and others would go in cold with no idea what they would be looking at."

MCPS: “Eileen Steinkraus, the magnet coordinator, said applicants used to take the Preliminary SAT, but so many students studied for the test that they abolished it four years ago and had a testing service develop a test for them.”

Pfft.

I'm sure there were a lot of concerns. But, just like there were a lot of reasons for the civil war but really one reason, the primary driver of the admissions change was racial diversity. Nobody that was around 5 years ago would have said test prep was driving the change more than racial concerns

The answer to test prep is more transparency and access not hiding the ball or getting rid of the score sheet. There is a ton of prep available for the PSAT and a ton of test prep available for the SHSAT.

The problem is that you still end up with the same Asian problem. If only there was some way to get the Asians to study less, we wouldn't have any of these issues.

There wasn't an "Asian problem". There was a lack of anyone except wealthy white & Asian students coming from feeder schools.

They added seats to give kids across the county a chance, with the hope that the diversity might increase. It wasn't about reducing Asian students (an intentionally divisive RWNJ talking point trying to spin up votes in an election year), it was about adding others. It wasn't a zero-sum game.

There weren't that many white kids. There are more white kids under the new admissions process. The white population increased more than black or Hispanic population and the Asian population declined as we all know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s this strange implication that “wealth” is somehow separate from ability. And we are really just talking MC/UMC here. But it’s true that intelligence is a heritable trait. And it takes a bit of intelligence and hard work to be MC/UMC. This is no secret.

Sorry but people with money aren’t just a bunch of idiots with inheritances. And there aren’t a whole bunch of poor geniuses.

Kids who were admitted under the old TJ admissions process were mostly not prodigies. Plop those same kids into economically-disadvantaged families at birth and it's very unlikely that most would still end up at TJ.

And yet you have schools like stuyvesant, bronx science and brooklyn tech where most of the students are in fact from poor families.

NYC has a different admissions environment/process.

For TJ, less than 1% of the class of 2024 came from economically-disadvantaged families.

Yes, in NYC admissions is based purely on an admissions test.

They don't care that you can transcribe the compelling prepared essay about the the summer you spent at a robotics camp that ignited your passion for stem.

And frankly the FARM percentage is not really relevant. TJ is not an anti-poverty program.
If poor kids are not being prepared, then your problem is with to the people who are supposed to be preparing them, not the people that are pointing out that they are not prepared.

TJ serves the whole community, not just the families who have the means to game the system.

It's supposed to serve the smart kids regardless of race or income.

TJ used to have an average SAT score of 1520. What do you think it was for the class of 2025?

Given that the % ED has gone up 800% I’m guessing it will go down some.

SAT scores are correlated with wealth.

SAT scores are correlated to cognitive ability and cognitive ability is correlated to wealth.

Tell my 930 SAT score sun who is a multimillionaire working in IT.

It's possible your sun is an outlier, it's possible your sun is just hard working and frugal help desk guy, it's possible your just full of shit. A 930 SAT is below average.

[Anonymous]

it will continue to fall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And parent were willing to spend big bucks to give their kids a leg up in admissions:

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

that’s nice, dear

YouTube free SAT prep:

- free

FCPS SAT prep resources

- free

High school college admissions center SAT prep resources

- free

Public library SAT prep guides

- free

Etc.

That's why they changed to a test that didn't have free trying available in the hopes that kids would not be able to study for the test. They STILL couldn't get the racial profile they desired so they just got rid of the test and things got a lot easier. Until kids started failing.

It worked for a year until the test prep companies caught up. Class of 2022 was significantly more diverse and performed outstandingly well.

If by more diverse, you mean more white, then yes the class of 2022 was more diverse. The two groups that saw increased admissions were Hispanic (went from 8 to 23) and white (went from 87 to 111). These changes always seem to help the white kids the most.

Well, yes. You’re essentially admitting that if you use the same exam format year over year, it benefits Asian students.

That isn’t the flex that you think it is. Especially when so many have defended the exam that produced the above results tooth and nail now that it’s been hacked.

They weren't defending that particular exam, they were defending exams in general. Getting rid of exams is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And parent were willing to spend big bucks to give their kids a leg up in admissions:

$2120
https://plcprep.com/1-on-1_tutoring.php

$200-300 per hour
https://www.principiatutors.com/our-pricing

$625
https://fairfaxcollegiate.com/test-prep/tjhsst-prep

$1000+ including practice tests
https://web.archive.org/web/20190411164031/http://katedalby.com/tj-admissions-prep/

$800 self paced
$2400 small group
https://www.tjtestprep.com/

$1950
https://www.principiatutors.com/tj-sps-pse-prep

$6985+ signature program that runs over two years “pass any test for admission into specialized programs like AOS/AET and TJ”
https://tinyurl.com/tjtestprepoptions

that’s nice, dear

YouTube free SAT prep:

- free

FCPS SAT prep resources

- free

High school college admissions center SAT prep resources

- free

Public library SAT prep guides

- free

Etc.

That's why they changed to a test that didn't have free trying available in the hopes that kids would not be able to study for the test. They STILL couldn't get the racial profile they desired so they just got rid of the test and things got a lot easier. Until kids started failing.

It worked for a year until the test prep companies caught up. Class of 2022 was significantly more diverse and performed outstandingly well.

If by more diverse, you mean more white, then yes the class of 2022 was more diverse. The two groups that saw increased admissions were Hispanic (went from 8 to 23) and white (went from 87 to 111). These changes always seem to help the white kids the most.

Well, yes. You’re essentially admitting that if you use the same exam format year over year, it benefits Asian students.

That isn’t the flex that you think it is. Especially when so many have defended the exam that produced the above results tooth and nail now that it’s been hacked.

Yes. Any time you use an objective test that you can study for, the kids that study hard are going to do better than the kids that don't.