Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you want to erase a people, you destroy their libraries, their cemeteries, their cultural artifacts, the beautiful things they've built. Israel and Azerbaijan excel in this.

Gather a coalition of armies from countries around the world and fight back against Israel if this is all such a concern.

If the U.S. cut support, there would be 60+ armies across the globe capable of beating Israel’s brakes off within three months. Once the U.S. armaments ran out, it would be like taking candy from a baby.

And that’s really why Zionists are desperate to sustain U.S. welfare. Not because other countries are even mildly interested in attacking Israel on a level playing field “just because”. We’ve all experienced that friend who is so obtuse and completely self-unaware that they persist in claiming that others dislike them for no reason at all, certainly not for something they’ve done!

Israel wants to play bully on the world stage and not be held accountable for its atrocities. But without our support, the tough guy bravado would have to be discarded on Day 1 of this new existence. That’s the fear - deprived of having their cake, and eating it, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you want to erase a people, you destroy their libraries, their cemeteries, their cultural artifacts, the beautiful things they've built. Israel and Azerbaijan excel in this.

Gather a coalition of armies from countries around the world and fight back against Israel if this is all such a concern.

If the U.S. cut support, there would be 60+ armies across the globe capable of beating Israel’s brakes off within three months. Once the U.S. armaments ran out, it would be like taking candy from a baby.

And that’s really why Zionists are desperate to sustain U.S. welfare. Not because other countries are even mildly interested in attacking Israel on a level playing field “just because”. We’ve all experienced that friend who is so obtuse and completely self-unaware that they persist in claiming that others dislike them for no reason at all, certainly not for something they’ve done!

Israel wants to play bully on the world stage and not be held accountable for its atrocities. But without our support, the tough guy bravado would have to be discarded on Day 1 of this new existence. That’s the fear - deprived of having their cake, and eating it, too.

Right because the Arab states are stupid and will form a coalition to attack a nuclear power. Just like the western world is attacking North Korea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An incisive essay by Peter Beinart penned early after Oct 7. Longread but worth it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/14/opinion/palestinian-ethical-resistance-answers-grief-and-rage.html?unlocked_article_code=Chw9pPdgieGcc-P-taTJRz00hk8idJF_rINeMYm3H6O1LP3HZVKgzTLsY8fS6U59Lf-fTpUy9b5OSBvH1X7VCJuGBBn0Nei1Nw06RB41Yp4ZsqJbAafc-5M0kfD0hhVGsYcka9xCeJ9JEdAU93UwwKcz9glEa77I6vtPqNQx0rC6GVnNRIAj86RcGYaxfThI2eoyxLhxZt-JQRhL2dUJbaZCpq8SxNt2i3_2I1a8kIDfHaeHwNnwsVlyX9jIiE4fzwhUx8Tp8pjHMNXf6Wu5W5QJpINVpqrjvsynBg0g-pUh8FVBPJcDkG_CcDOrywCSkfGdenneS6WUHK6Yl0R4HTTqiPvsnXncOB3vU6ZdkiUbGIoIZQNIPR5Wec_0YA&smid=url-share

Palestinians are not fundamentally different from other people facing oppression: When moral resistance doesn’t work, they try something else. In 1972, the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association, which was modeled on the civil rights movement in the United States, organized a march to oppose imprisonment without trial. Although some organizations, most notably the Provisional Irish Republican Army, had already embraced armed resistance, they grew stronger after British soldiers shot 26 unarmed civilians in what became known as Bloody Sunday. By the early 1980s, the Irish Republican Army had even detonated a bomb outside Harrods, the department store in London. As Kirssa Cline Ryckman, a political scientist, observed in a 2019 paper on why certain movements turn violent, a lack of progress in peaceful protest “can encourage the use of violence by convincing demonstrators that nonviolence will fail to achieve meaningful concessions.”

Israel, with America’s help, has done exactly that. It has repeatedly undermined Palestinians who sought to end Israel’s occupation through negotiations or nonviolent pressure. As part of the 1993 Oslo Accords, the Palestine Liberation Organization renounced violence and began working with Israel — albeit imperfectly — to prevent attacks on Israelis, something that revolutionary groups like the A.N.C. and the Irish Republican Army never did while their people remained under oppression. At first, as Khalil Shikaki, a Palestinian political scientist, has detailed, Palestinians supported cooperation with Israel because they thought it would deliver them a state. In early 1996, Palestinian support for the Oslo process reached 80 percent while support for violence against Israelis dropped to 20 percent.

The 1996 election of Benjamin Netanyahu, and the failure of Israel and its American patron to stop settlement growth, however, curdled Palestinian sentiment. Many Jewish Israelis believe that Ehud Barak, who succeeded Mr. Netanyahu, offered Palestinians a generous deal in 2000. Most Palestinians, however, saw Mr. Barak’s offer as falling far short of a fully sovereign state along the 1967 lines. And their disillusionment with a peace process that allowed Israel to entrench its hold over the territory on which they hoped to build their new country ushered in the violence of the second intifada. In Mr. Shikaki’s words, “The loss of confidence in the ability of the peace process to deliver a permanent agreement on acceptable terms had a dramatic impact on the level of Palestinian support for violence against Israelis.” As Palestinians abandoned hope, Hamas gained power.

After the brutal years of the second intifada, in which Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups repeatedly targeted Israeli civilians, President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority and Salam Fayyad, his prime minister from 2007 to 2013, worked to restore security cooperation and prevent anti-Israeli violence once again. Yet again, the strategy failed. The same Israeli leaders who applauded Mr. Fayyad undermined him in back rooms by funding the settlement growth that convinced Palestinians that security cooperation was bringing them only deepening occupation. Mr. Fayyad, in an interview with The Times’s Roger Cohen before he left office in 2013, admitted that because the “occupation regime is more entrenched,” Palestinians “question whether the P.A. can deliver. Meanwhile, Hamas gains recognition and is strengthened.”

As Palestinians lost faith that cooperation with Israel could end the occupation, many appealed to the world to hold Israel accountable for its violation of their rights. In response, both Democratic and Republican presidents have worked diligently to ensure that these nonviolent efforts fail. Since 1997, the United States has vetoed more than a dozen United Nations Security Council resolutions criticizing Israel for its actions in the West Bank and Gaza. This February, even as Israel’s far-right government was beginning a huge settlement expansion, the Biden administration reportedly wielded a veto threat to drastically dilute a Security Council resolution that would have condemned settlement growth.

Washington’s response to the International Criminal Court’s efforts to investigate potential Israeli war crimes is equally hostile. Despite lifting sanctions that the Trump administration imposed on I.C.C. officials investigating the United States’s conduct in Afghanistan, the Biden team remains adamantly opposed to any I.C.C. investigation into Israel’s actions.

The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement, or B.D.S., which was founded in 2005 as a nonviolent alternative to the murderous second intifada and which speaks in the language of human rights and international law, has been similarly stymied, including by many of the same American politicians who celebrated the movement to boycott, divest from and sanction South Africa. Joe Biden, who is proud of his role in passing sanctions against South Africa, has condemned the B.D.S. movement, saying it “too often veers into antisemitism.” About 35 states — some of which once divested state funds from companies doing business in apartheid South Africa — have passed laws or issued executive orders punishing companies that boycott Israel. In many cases, those punishments apply even to businesses that boycott only Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

Palestinians have noticed. In the words of Dana El Kurd, a Palestinian American political scientist, “Palestinians have lost faith in the efficacy of nonviolent protest as well as the possible role of the international community.” Mohammed Deif, the commander of Hamas’s military wing, cited this disillusionment during last Saturday’s attack. “In light of the orgy of occupation and its denial of international laws and resolutions, and in light of American and Western support and international silence,” he declared, “we’ve decided to put an end to all this.”

They have lost faith and are frustrated because no one is just going to give them what they want through discussion and negotiation, because they don't have a legitimate claim. There isn't any reason to give them what they want just because they want it--I earnestly want a nice house in Arlington, can be very passionate about, talk about it all the time, tell people I should have, use nice words, but that doesn't mean others will oblige. Sometimes it is time to just stop and focus on something else.
But ok, they can choose violence, and suffer consequences (and I guess complain about them as they are now as if some grand injustice is going on when the violence didn't have to happen in the first place).

Nope, that's not it. They didn't get what they wanted because Israel has all the power in this setup and Israel doesn't feel like giving it. There are no neutral arbiters to decide on this. It's what the more powerful party feels prepared to give, and no one really gives anything unless they have to. There is no international arena to which they can bring their claim for an impartial review.

If a nice house in Arlington was built on the land stolen from you, you wouldn't ask the owner of that house, you would go to court and ask for compensation. Palestinians have no court to go to.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.

No one supports Hamas!!!!

You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.

A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage

This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.

Decayed infants story is true.

Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.

Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.

PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?

What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?

Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.

Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.

This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.

An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.

But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?

Here is some further information:

"Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

From the same report:

"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""

Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.

Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.

Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?

Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.

There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.

You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .

But Israel has admitted it has done this before. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. Of course, when doctors in Gaza notice what appears to be missing organs from returned bodies, they are going to be suspicious. If the concern is misplaced, an international investigation will prove that. So why not just call for an independent international investigation to clear up the matter? Isn't that what you would want? Why just throw up a smokescreen of histrionic "How dare you!"s. This could very easily be resolved one way or the other. Perhaps the Red Cross could do the investigation.

[Anonymous]

Israel isn’t asking us to give up our democracy for their cause.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Israel isn’t asking us to give up our democracy for their cause.

They absolutely are— they are demanding unconditional and uncritical support from the United States over the objection of a majority of voters who don’t support ongoing military assistance.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The number of people here who have ignored atrocities in Africa, Central America, Ukraine, etc. but are breathlessly horrified that some bodies in a war zone in Israel decayed is not zero.

I'm glad you finally learned war is a horrible, horrible thing, Virginia. I wonder when you will learn that it is also a horrible, horrible thing to not know if there are bombs in a parked car near your elementary school or temple, or if that neighbor of yours for thirty years secretly wants you dead. Terrorist acts have consequences. And you, sitting in a Bethesda parking lot in your Saudi-powered SUV while the kids are at Mathnesium, have the luxury of no consequences.

So we shouldn't care when our closest "ally" is murdering women and children with our tax dollars?

You don't need to pay taxes, you can choose not to work. Or you can go back to the country that you care about so much. The U.S. doesn't need to change what it is doing at your command.

By the way, Israel is not our closest ally. They actually are not officially an ally. Ally has a defined meaning.

Oh gosh I hate to tell you that’s actually the whole point of elections.

If it takes Joe Biden losing an election to make him understand that young Americans do not want children killed in our name, so be it.

No one but Palestinians and Muslims are voting based on this issue. They do not care if a Republican win harms ordinary Americans day to day, all that matters is that BIden knows he didn't do what they wanted for their interest "back home". If your plan is to bring over all of your relatives from your home countries and have a lot of babies to form a group big enough to swing elections, go for it I guess, nothing we can do about it, America's open borders have consequences.

I am neither Palestinian nor Muslim but yes I will absolutely vote against the U.S.
enabling the killing of children. I am hoping our lawmakers change course before I am forced to vote against Biden but I will absolutely do so. I cannot look at my (half Jewish) child and tell her that I am just fine with children her age being killed every day by bombs the U.S. supplies. And yes I understand that means I may have to explain to her that is why we always have up to date passports in case we need to seek healthcare in Canada.

Are you planning on driving her to Canada in your gasoline-powered car? Are the kids in Yemen who are also killed by bombs the US supplies in a different tranche for you?

Not voting for Biden "because Israel" is such an absurd idea I have to think you're not arguing as a real person. Is this your new Overton window, suggesting that left wingers don't vote democrat as "protest?"

It's absurd.

As it happens I sent quite a lot of mail to my elected officials about Yemen in the 2017-19 years. Thank you for asking. And I also didn’t support U.S. sales of weapons to Saudi, and didn’t vote for Trump.

Biden has a year before the election to listen to what the voters he needs to win are saying.

Thanks for asking though. You’ve identified my very strict foreign policy criteria of “bombing and starving children is bad”. I can’t believe that constitutes a bleeding heart position these days.

If you cared about babies you would ask Hamas to surrender. Will you be ok with Israel existing as an independent state? No, you won't. That is why you are so so concerned about U.S. funding, you think Israel would not exist w/o the funding. If only that money would go away your dream would come true!

Who would you like me to ask? What is their mailing address? Do I need an international stamp? Should I specify in my note that I believe they need to surrender to the ICC so there can be a public and international accounting for their crimes to counter the astonishing amount of mis and disinformation? You let me know. I’ll get on it.

In the meantime while you’re getting me that information I’ll work on influence the people facilitating the killing of children on the other side of the divide and doing so with my tax dollars. Israel will be just fine and continue to exist without U.S. money.

Go to any current US protest and ask them if Hamas should surrender

If you think someone is present at one of those protests who has the influence with Hamas leadership to demand the release of the hostages you should be calling the FBI not posting on DCUM.

DP. Nice deflection.

Fact is, many do support Hamas. Check the polls.

Ok then answer the prior unanswered question. Who is it you want us to “call on” to release hostages? Who do you want us to call? Who do you want us to write? Given there is no support to Hamas from the U.S. where do you get the delusion that Hamas cares in the slightest about U.S. taxpayer opinion?

You could just stop marching, protesting and writing in support of Hamas.

Easy.

That isn’t “calling on” anyone. I thought you wanted us to ask Hamas to release the hostages a few pages ago?

It sounds like what you are actually saying is “shut up about Israel’s conduct or we’ll keep saying you support Hamas”

Exactly. Propagate lies to justify the sins of Israel, then when those lies lose steam or completely derail under the weight of facts, just resort to employing every dirty trick in the book to shut down the discussion. It’s tired. It’s really, really tired at this point.

"Being Israeled" is a thing. Everyone is sick of it.

We know, we know. You were Israeled by an 8 year old imaginary bully.

I was eight. She was an unusually large and heavy kid (probably around 10, based on her grade) who looked like a 14yo.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.

No one supports Hamas!!!!

You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.

A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage

This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.

Decayed infants story is true.

Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.

Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.

PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?

What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?

Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.

Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.

This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.

An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.

But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?

Here is some further information:

"Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

From the same report:

"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""

Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.

Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.

Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?

Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.

There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.

You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .

But Israel has admitted it has done this before. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. Of course, when doctors in Gaza notice what appears to be missing organs from returned bodies, they are going to be suspicious. If the concern is misplaced, an international investigation will prove that. So why not just call for an independent international investigation to clear up the matter? Isn't that what you would want? Why just throw up a smokescreen of histrionic "How dare you!"s. This could very easily be resolved one way or the other. Perhaps the Red Cross could do the investigation.

Israel admitted to taking organs from dead Israelis, soldiers, and palestinian prisoners who died in hospitals. Under sterile conditions. The practice stopped in the 90s. The practice was not directed at Palestinians. The practice was used in dead Israelis as well. On one hand they are reporting that the Gazan medical system is overwhelmed on the other hand the doctors have time to examine bodies for missing organs which apparently, in your opinion, takes minutes (but in reality takes hours). Go ahead with your international investigation who cares apparently we need to dispel and verify every idiotic conspiracy theory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

Ah.

Only the Republicans can save us? Fascinating agenda.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of people here who have ignored atrocities in Africa, Central America, Ukraine, etc. but are breathlessly horrified that some bodies in a war zone in Israel decayed is not zero.

I'm glad you finally learned war is a horrible, horrible thing, Virginia. I wonder when you will learn that it is also a horrible, horrible thing to not know if there are bombs in a parked car near your elementary school or temple, or if that neighbor of yours for thirty years secretly wants you dead. Terrorist acts have consequences. And you, sitting in a Bethesda parking lot in your Saudi-powered SUV while the kids are at Mathnesium, have the luxury of no consequences.

So we shouldn't care when our closest "ally" is murdering women and children with our tax dollars?

You don't need to pay taxes, you can choose not to work. Or you can go back to the country that you care about so much. The U.S. doesn't need to change what it is doing at your command.

By the way, Israel is not our closest ally. They actually are not officially an ally. Ally has a defined meaning.

Oh gosh I hate to tell you that’s actually the whole point of elections.

If it takes Joe Biden losing an election to make him understand that young Americans do not want children killed in our name, so be it.

No one but Palestinians and Muslims are voting based on this issue. They do not care if a Republican win harms ordinary Americans day to day, all that matters is that BIden knows he didn't do what they wanted for their interest "back home". If your plan is to bring over all of your relatives from your home countries and have a lot of babies to form a group big enough to swing elections, go for it I guess, nothing we can do about it, America's open borders have consequences.

I am neither Palestinian nor Muslim but yes I will absolutely vote against the U.S.
enabling the killing of children. I am hoping our lawmakers change course before I am forced to vote against Biden but I will absolutely do so. I cannot look at my (half Jewish) child and tell her that I am just fine with children her age being killed every day by bombs the U.S. supplies. And yes I understand that means I may have to explain to her that is why we always have up to date passports in case we need to seek healthcare in Canada.

Are you planning on driving her to Canada in your gasoline-powered car? Are the kids in Yemen who are also killed by bombs the US supplies in a different tranche for you?

Not voting for Biden "because Israel" is such an absurd idea I have to think you're not arguing as a real person. Is this your new Overton window, suggesting that left wingers don't vote democrat as "protest?"

It's absurd.

As it happens I sent quite a lot of mail to my elected officials about Yemen in the 2017-19 years. Thank you for asking. And I also didn’t support U.S. sales of weapons to Saudi, and didn’t vote for Trump.

Biden has a year before the election to listen to what the voters he needs to win are saying.

Thanks for asking though. You’ve identified my very strict foreign policy criteria of “bombing and starving children is bad”. I can’t believe that constitutes a bleeding heart position these days.

If you cared about babies you would ask Hamas to surrender. Will you be ok with Israel existing as an independent state? No, you won't. That is why you are so so concerned about U.S. funding, you think Israel would not exist w/o the funding. If only that money would go away your dream would come true!

Who would you like me to ask? What is their mailing address? Do I need an international stamp? Should I specify in my note that I believe they need to surrender to the ICC so there can be a public and international accounting for their crimes to counter the astonishing amount of mis and disinformation? You let me know. I’ll get on it.

In the meantime while you’re getting me that information I’ll work on influence the people facilitating the killing of children on the other side of the divide and doing so with my tax dollars. Israel will be just fine and continue to exist without U.S. money.

Go to any current US protest and ask them if Hamas should surrender

If you think someone is present at one of those protests who has the influence with Hamas leadership to demand the release of the hostages you should be calling the FBI not posting on DCUM.

DP. Nice deflection.

Fact is, many do support Hamas. Check the polls.

Ok then answer the prior unanswered question. Who is it you want us to “call on” to release hostages? Who do you want us to call? Who do you want us to write? Given there is no support to Hamas from the U.S. where do you get the delusion that Hamas cares in the slightest about U.S. taxpayer opinion?

You could just stop marching, protesting and writing in support of Hamas.

Easy.

That isn’t “calling on” anyone. I thought you wanted us to ask Hamas to release the hostages a few pages ago?

It sounds like what you are actually saying is “shut up about Israel’s conduct or we’ll keep saying you support Hamas”

Exactly. Propagate lies to justify the sins of Israel, then when those lies lose steam or completely derail under the weight of facts, just resort to employing every dirty trick in the book to shut down the discussion. It’s tired. It’s really, really tired at this point.

"Being Israeled" is a thing. Everyone is sick of it.

We know, we know. You were Israeled by an 8 year old imaginary bully.

I was eight. She was an unusually large and heavy kid (probably around 10, based on her grade) who looked like a 14yo.

I bet she also had a mustache and wore a star of David necklace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

Ah.

Only the Republicans can save us? Fascinating agenda.

Nah, Joe will do just fine.

Keeping it simple since you’re so avowedly helpless.

Baby steps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

Your strawman has reached the outer limits of absurdity.

Your ability to influence (or lack thereof) is most emphatically not at issue.

But if it were, of course you have the ability to influence Hamas.

All you need to do is support US politicians committed to massive military aid to Israel and a policy of aggressive containment towards Iran.

Trust me: Hamas will feel the influence.

Can we return to regularly scheduled programming now?

The days of outsmarting unsuspecting or sympathetic post-WWII rubes and convincing others to do the costly bidding are over. Go cry victim to someone else. America has been exploited by Israel enough already.

As for the “trust me” part: Wow, that is astounding. I would sooner trust just about anyone else in this world than trust someone who believes what you believe, that the answer to this never ending disaster of a concept (Zionism) is to send even more aid, “massive military aid to Israel”. You are insane. No thanks, check please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In 1999, NATO, led by the U.S., bombed a maternity hospital in Belgrade. Where were you all Hamas lovers then to hear the blooded mothers carrying their babies? Serbs were evil, no? They deserved it. But, Hamas loving Palestinians are innocent?

I think we have arrived at a particular phase of hasbara talking points known as "why are you looking at me, look at that other guy, he's even worse!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hamas is masterful; it accomplished having liberal people in the U.S. believe all their setups, lies, and mutilations.
It is sad that it was not even a real effort required. I assure you I will protect my Jewish neighbors in Olney from zealots found on dcum.
You believed Johnny Depp after all, you are all idiots.

lol be sure to refer to the West Bank as Judea and Samaria while you're at it. otherwise how can Israel be sure you're a real friend?