Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

You are spinning this, but the dog just don’t hunt. America has zero control over the decisions Hamas leadership are making right now. You know that. America SHOULD have nearly complete control over the decisions Israel is making right now, considering the nature of our support.

But since the status quo is your fallback position after you exhaust your “more, more, more for Israel!” pleas, you ensure gridlock by pretending that I can influence Hamas, or that the U.S. can influence Hamas. You just say it to cloud the discussion, and it’s frankly pathetic. Do you sincerely think you’re fooling anyone?

I imagine that this rope-a-dope BS worked to bamboozle ppl in the past, but those days are over.

[Anonymous]

In 1999, NATO, led by the U.S., bombed a maternity hospital in Belgrade. Where were you all Hamas lovers then to hear the blooded mothers carrying their babies? Serbs were evil, no? They deserved it. But, Hamas loving Palestinians are innocent?

[Anonymous]

Do you know why Israel exists in the Middle East? Anyone?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.

No one supports Hamas!!!!

You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.

A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage

This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.

Decayed infants story is true.

Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.

Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.

PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?

What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?

Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.

Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.

This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.

An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.

But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?

Here is some further information:

"Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

From the same report:

"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""

Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.

Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.

Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?

Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.

There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.

You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The number of people here who have ignored atrocities in Africa, Central America, Ukraine, etc. but are breathlessly horrified that some bodies in a war zone in Israel decayed is not zero.

I'm glad you finally learned war is a horrible, horrible thing, Virginia. I wonder when you will learn that it is also a horrible, horrible thing to not know if there are bombs in a parked car near your elementary school or temple, or if that neighbor of yours for thirty years secretly wants you dead. Terrorist acts have consequences. And you, sitting in a Bethesda parking lot in your Saudi-powered SUV while the kids are at Mathnesium, have the luxury of no consequences.

So we shouldn't care when our closest "ally" is murdering women and children with our tax dollars?

You don't need to pay taxes, you can choose not to work. Or you can go back to the country that you care about so much. The U.S. doesn't need to change what it is doing at your command.

By the way, Israel is not our closest ally. They actually are not officially an ally. Ally has a defined meaning.

Oh gosh I hate to tell you that’s actually the whole point of elections.

If it takes Joe Biden losing an election to make him understand that young Americans do not want children killed in our name, so be it.

No one but Palestinians and Muslims are voting based on this issue. They do not care if a Republican win harms ordinary Americans day to day, all that matters is that BIden knows he didn't do what they wanted for their interest "back home". If your plan is to bring over all of your relatives from your home countries and have a lot of babies to form a group big enough to swing elections, go for it I guess, nothing we can do about it, America's open borders have consequences.

I am neither Palestinian nor Muslim but yes I will absolutely vote against the U.S.
enabling the killing of children. I am hoping our lawmakers change course before I am forced to vote against Biden but I will absolutely do so. I cannot look at my (half Jewish) child and tell her that I am just fine with children her age being killed every day by bombs the U.S. supplies. And yes I understand that means I may have to explain to her that is why we always have up to date passports in case we need to seek healthcare in Canada.

Are you planning on driving her to Canada in your gasoline-powered car? Are the kids in Yemen who are also killed by bombs the US supplies in a different tranche for you?

Not voting for Biden "because Israel" is such an absurd idea I have to think you're not arguing as a real person. Is this your new Overton window, suggesting that left wingers don't vote democrat as "protest?"

It's absurd.

As it happens I sent quite a lot of mail to my elected officials about Yemen in the 2017-19 years. Thank you for asking. And I also didn’t support U.S. sales of weapons to Saudi, and didn’t vote for Trump.

Biden has a year before the election to listen to what the voters he needs to win are saying.

Thanks for asking though. You’ve identified my very strict foreign policy criteria of “bombing and starving children is bad”. I can’t believe that constitutes a bleeding heart position these days.

If you cared about babies you would ask Hamas to surrender. Will you be ok with Israel existing as an independent state? No, you won't. That is why you are so so concerned about U.S. funding, you think Israel would not exist w/o the funding. If only that money would go away your dream would come true!

Who would you like me to ask? What is their mailing address? Do I need an international stamp? Should I specify in my note that I believe they need to surrender to the ICC so there can be a public and international accounting for their crimes to counter the astonishing amount of mis and disinformation? You let me know. I’ll get on it.

In the meantime while you’re getting me that information I’ll work on influence the people facilitating the killing of children on the other side of the divide and doing so with my tax dollars. Israel will be just fine and continue to exist without U.S. money.

Go to any current US protest and ask them if Hamas should surrender

If you think someone is present at one of those protests who has the influence with Hamas leadership to demand the release of the hostages you should be calling the FBI not posting on DCUM.

DP. Nice deflection.

Fact is, many do support Hamas. Check the polls.

Ok then answer the prior unanswered question. Who is it you want us to “call on” to release hostages? Who do you want us to call? Who do you want us to write? Given there is no support to Hamas from the U.S. where do you get the delusion that Hamas cares in the slightest about U.S. taxpayer opinion?

You could just stop marching, protesting and writing in support of Hamas.

Easy.

That isn’t “calling on” anyone. I thought you wanted us to ask Hamas to release the hostages a few pages ago?

It sounds like what you are actually saying is “shut up about Israel’s conduct or we’ll keep saying you support Hamas”

Exactly. Propagate lies to justify the sins of Israel, then when those lies lose steam or completely derail under the weight of facts, just resort to employing every dirty trick in the book to shut down the discussion. It’s tired. It’s really, really tired at this point.

"Being Israeled" is a thing. Everyone is sick of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.

No one supports Hamas!!!!

You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.

A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage

This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.

Decayed infants story is true.

Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.

Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.

PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?

What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?

Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.

Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.

This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.

An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.

But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?

Here is some further information:

"Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs

From the same report:

"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""

Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.

Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.

Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?

Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.

There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.

You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .

Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of people here who have ignored atrocities in Africa, Central America, Ukraine, etc. but are breathlessly horrified that some bodies in a war zone in Israel decayed is not zero.

I'm glad you finally learned war is a horrible, horrible thing, Virginia. I wonder when you will learn that it is also a horrible, horrible thing to not know if there are bombs in a parked car near your elementary school or temple, or if that neighbor of yours for thirty years secretly wants you dead. Terrorist acts have consequences. And you, sitting in a Bethesda parking lot in your Saudi-powered SUV while the kids are at Mathnesium, have the luxury of no consequences.

So we shouldn't care when our closest "ally" is murdering women and children with our tax dollars?

You don't need to pay taxes, you can choose not to work. Or you can go back to the country that you care about so much. The U.S. doesn't need to change what it is doing at your command.

By the way, Israel is not our closest ally. They actually are not officially an ally. Ally has a defined meaning.

Oh gosh I hate to tell you that’s actually the whole point of elections.

If it takes Joe Biden losing an election to make him understand that young Americans do not want children killed in our name, so be it.

No one but Palestinians and Muslims are voting based on this issue. They do not care if a Republican win harms ordinary Americans day to day, all that matters is that BIden knows he didn't do what they wanted for their interest "back home". If your plan is to bring over all of your relatives from your home countries and have a lot of babies to form a group big enough to swing elections, go for it I guess, nothing we can do about it, America's open borders have consequences.

I am neither Palestinian nor Muslim but yes I will absolutely vote against the U.S.
enabling the killing of children. I am hoping our lawmakers change course before I am forced to vote against Biden but I will absolutely do so. I cannot look at my (half Jewish) child and tell her that I am just fine with children her age being killed every day by bombs the U.S. supplies. And yes I understand that means I may have to explain to her that is why we always have up to date passports in case we need to seek healthcare in Canada.

Are you planning on driving her to Canada in your gasoline-powered car? Are the kids in Yemen who are also killed by bombs the US supplies in a different tranche for you?

Not voting for Biden "because Israel" is such an absurd idea I have to think you're not arguing as a real person. Is this your new Overton window, suggesting that left wingers don't vote democrat as "protest?"

It's absurd.

As it happens I sent quite a lot of mail to my elected officials about Yemen in the 2017-19 years. Thank you for asking. And I also didn’t support U.S. sales of weapons to Saudi, and didn’t vote for Trump.

Biden has a year before the election to listen to what the voters he needs to win are saying.

Thanks for asking though. You’ve identified my very strict foreign policy criteria of “bombing and starving children is bad”. I can’t believe that constitutes a bleeding heart position these days.

If you cared about babies you would ask Hamas to surrender. Will you be ok with Israel existing as an independent state? No, you won't. That is why you are so so concerned about U.S. funding, you think Israel would not exist w/o the funding. If only that money would go away your dream would come true!

Who would you like me to ask? What is their mailing address? Do I need an international stamp? Should I specify in my note that I believe they need to surrender to the ICC so there can be a public and international accounting for their crimes to counter the astonishing amount of mis and disinformation? You let me know. I’ll get on it.

In the meantime while you’re getting me that information I’ll work on influence the people facilitating the killing of children on the other side of the divide and doing so with my tax dollars. Israel will be just fine and continue to exist without U.S. money.

Go to any current US protest and ask them if Hamas should surrender

If you think someone is present at one of those protests who has the influence with Hamas leadership to demand the release of the hostages you should be calling the FBI not posting on DCUM.

DP. Nice deflection.

Fact is, many do support Hamas. Check the polls.

Ok then answer the prior unanswered question. Who is it you want us to “call on” to release hostages? Who do you want us to call? Who do you want us to write? Given there is no support to Hamas from the U.S. where do you get the delusion that Hamas cares in the slightest about U.S. taxpayer opinion?

You could just stop marching, protesting and writing in support of Hamas.

Easy.

That isn’t “calling on” anyone. I thought you wanted us to ask Hamas to release the hostages a few pages ago?

It sounds like what you are actually saying is “shut up about Israel’s conduct or we’ll keep saying you support Hamas”

Exactly. Propagate lies to justify the sins of Israel, then when those lies lose steam or completely derail under the weight of facts, just resort to employing every dirty trick in the book to shut down the discussion. It’s tired. It’s really, really tired at this point.

"Being Israeled" is a thing. Everyone is sick of it.

You know that anyone can make up a term to use in name calling. It is not a thing. I can make up a term now "being Betty-ed"--meaning being given a nice sincere compliment. "Oh, your hair looks beautiful every single day"--being Betty-ed.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

BS. I hold Israel to a higher standard than terrorists; we all should. And again, Israel has failed to make the distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. Kind of ironic that people scream about double standards while engaging in the same behavior.

How easy is it to make that distinction, actually? Returned hostages have said they were held in apartments with families. One of the ordinary Palestinians holding Jewish hostages in his apartment with his family taught at a UNRWA school. One of the Gaza hospital chiefs was himself a Hamas officer. The sole adult male hostage released said he was returned by ordinary Palestinians to Hamas after he managed to escape captivity. And who were those throngs of ordinary Gazans beating the hostages when they were first abducted after the October 7th massacre? And the Gazan workers who provided intelligence support to Hamas when they planned their attacks on the Israeli border communities?

We want to believe there are ordinary Palestinians who don't provide practical support to Hamas and are merely forced to serve as their human shields at massive personal cost. But... where is the evidence that they don't support Hamas? Because they sure seem to.

Got it. So "kill them all, let God sort it out" is the justification?

No... Comrade? It would be better to deradicalize them, but that won't be possible until Hamas is defeated.

The many useful Marxist idiots among our colleagues, friends, and neighbors here would do well to see this reality more clearly, because they are playing right into the hands of, not only Hamas, but their backers Iran and Russia.

And in refusing to acknowledge that killing indiscriminately simply creates more terrorists, Israel is also playing into Hamas' hands. And let's not forget that the Israeli right wing (looking at you, Netanyahu) spents decades and millions of dollars propping up Hamas so they wouldn't have to deal with the Palestinian Authority's demands for a two-state solution. How'd that work out?

Ok, Comrade. Your proteges' policy of Intifada and embrace of terrorist violence created Bibi and strengthened Israel's right wing. How did that work out for any of us?

Whose policy of intifada and embrace of terrorist violence? WTH are you talking about? Are you seriously implying that attempts to bring the parties to the negotiation table as equals is somehow analogous to supporting terrorism?

Comrade, are you unaware of Palestinians' embrace of terrorist violence over the previous decades? Really? You know nothing about all the hijackings of flights, suicide bombings in public places, mass shootings, knife attacks, car rammings, and rockets fired into Israel? And furthermore, you deny that having to live with this level of violence might cause some people to embrace a wannabe strongman type who says he will keep them safe even if the stuff he says doesn't sound that democratic? Okaaaaay...

Oh, you're talking about the Palestinians now. Yeah, not excusing them either.

The simple fact of the matter is that for the last 70 years we've seen both parties do everything to continue the cycle of violence and NOTHNG to negotiate a lasting peace. Hamas kills Jews, Israelis continue to gobble up more land in the West Bank, etc. etc. It's time for both sides to cut the crap. I hold both sides responsible. Nothing excuses 10/7, but then nothing excuses Israel's indiscriminate response either. Labeling people who want nothing more than peace as pro-Hamas or antisemitic is a cop-out.

So now you're claiming to be nothing more than a starry-eyed peacenik? OK, Comrade. So why do you imagine leaving terrorists in charge in Gaza will promote lasting peace?

Answer: you don't, because your side (Russia? Iran?) benefits from war.

Ask Netanyahu, who funneled money to Hamas so he wouldn't have to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority. That was a deliberate calculation on his part, and it came back to bite him. He's MASSIVELY unpoluar right now in Israel becaus of that (and other things, like ignoring intelligence reports) - are they antisemitic now too?

+1000. Netanyahu and his cabinet are cynical manipulators and have been among Hamas's most material supporters.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The number of people here who have ignored atrocities in Africa, Central America, Ukraine, etc. but are breathlessly horrified that some bodies in a war zone in Israel decayed is not zero.

I'm glad you finally learned war is a horrible, horrible thing, Virginia. I wonder when you will learn that it is also a horrible, horrible thing to not know if there are bombs in a parked car near your elementary school or temple, or if that neighbor of yours for thirty years secretly wants you dead. Terrorist acts have consequences. And you, sitting in a Bethesda parking lot in your Saudi-powered SUV while the kids are at Mathnesium, have the luxury of no consequences.

So we shouldn't care when our closest "ally" is murdering women and children with our tax dollars?

You don't need to pay taxes, you can choose not to work. Or you can go back to the country that you care about so much. The U.S. doesn't need to change what it is doing at your command.

By the way, Israel is not our closest ally. They actually are not officially an ally. Ally has a defined meaning.

Oh gosh I hate to tell you that’s actually the whole point of elections.

If it takes Joe Biden losing an election to make him understand that young Americans do not want children killed in our name, so be it.

No one but Palestinians and Muslims are voting based on this issue. They do not care if a Republican win harms ordinary Americans day to day, all that matters is that BIden knows he didn't do what they wanted for their interest "back home". If your plan is to bring over all of your relatives from your home countries and have a lot of babies to form a group big enough to swing elections, go for it I guess, nothing we can do about it, America's open borders have consequences.

I am neither Palestinian nor Muslim but yes I will absolutely vote against the U.S.
enabling the killing of children. I am hoping our lawmakers change course before I am forced to vote against Biden but I will absolutely do so. I cannot look at my (half Jewish) child and tell her that I am just fine with children her age being killed every day by bombs the U.S. supplies. And yes I understand that means I may have to explain to her that is why we always have up to date passports in case we need to seek healthcare in Canada.

Are you planning on driving her to Canada in your gasoline-powered car? Are the kids in Yemen who are also killed by bombs the US supplies in a different tranche for you?

Not voting for Biden "because Israel" is such an absurd idea I have to think you're not arguing as a real person. Is this your new Overton window, suggesting that left wingers don't vote democrat as "protest?"

It's absurd.

As it happens I sent quite a lot of mail to my elected officials about Yemen in the 2017-19 years. Thank you for asking. And I also didn’t support U.S. sales of weapons to Saudi, and didn’t vote for Trump.

Biden has a year before the election to listen to what the voters he needs to win are saying.

Thanks for asking though. You’ve identified my very strict foreign policy criteria of “bombing and starving children is bad”. I can’t believe that constitutes a bleeding heart position these days.

If you cared about babies you would ask Hamas to surrender. Will you be ok with Israel existing as an independent state? No, you won't. That is why you are so so concerned about U.S. funding, you think Israel would not exist w/o the funding. If only that money would go away your dream would come true!

Who would you like me to ask? What is their mailing address? Do I need an international stamp? Should I specify in my note that I believe they need to surrender to the ICC so there can be a public and international accounting for their crimes to counter the astonishing amount of mis and disinformation? You let me know. I’ll get on it.

In the meantime while you’re getting me that information I’ll work on influence the people facilitating the killing of children on the other side of the divide and doing so with my tax dollars. Israel will be just fine and continue to exist without U.S. money.

Go to any current US protest and ask them if Hamas should surrender

If you think someone is present at one of those protests who has the influence with Hamas leadership to demand the release of the hostages you should be calling the FBI not posting on DCUM.

DP. Nice deflection.

Fact is, many do support Hamas. Check the polls.

Ok then answer the prior unanswered question. Who is it you want us to “call on” to release hostages? Who do you want us to call? Who do you want us to write? Given there is no support to Hamas from the U.S. where do you get the delusion that Hamas cares in the slightest about U.S. taxpayer opinion?

You could just stop marching, protesting and writing in support of Hamas.

Easy.

That isn’t “calling on” anyone. I thought you wanted us to ask Hamas to release the hostages a few pages ago?

It sounds like what you are actually saying is “shut up about Israel’s conduct or we’ll keep saying you support Hamas”

Exactly. Propagate lies to justify the sins of Israel, then when those lies lose steam or completely derail under the weight of facts, just resort to employing every dirty trick in the book to shut down the discussion. It’s tired. It’s really, really tired at this point.

"Being Israeled" is a thing. Everyone is sick of it.

We know, we know. You were Israeled by an 8 year old imaginary bully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you know why Israel exists in the Middle East? Anyone?

Don't care. At all. It exists now. In 2023, it's here.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The number of people here who have ignored atrocities in Africa, Central America, Ukraine, etc. but are breathlessly horrified that some bodies in a war zone in Israel decayed is not zero.

I'm glad you finally learned war is a horrible, horrible thing, Virginia. I wonder when you will learn that it is also a horrible, horrible thing to not know if there are bombs in a parked car near your elementary school or temple, or if that neighbor of yours for thirty years secretly wants you dead. Terrorist acts have consequences. And you, sitting in a Bethesda parking lot in your Saudi-powered SUV while the kids are at Mathnesium, have the luxury of no consequences.

So we shouldn't care when our closest "ally" is murdering women and children with our tax dollars?

You don't need to pay taxes, you can choose not to work. Or you can go back to the country that you care about so much. The U.S. doesn't need to change what it is doing at your command.

By the way, Israel is not our closest ally. They actually are not officially an ally. Ally has a defined meaning.

Oh gosh I hate to tell you that’s actually the whole point of elections.

If it takes Joe Biden losing an election to make him understand that young Americans do not want children killed in our name, so be it.

No one but Palestinians and Muslims are voting based on this issue. They do not care if a Republican win harms ordinary Americans day to day, all that matters is that BIden knows he didn't do what they wanted for their interest "back home". If your plan is to bring over all of your relatives from your home countries and have a lot of babies to form a group big enough to swing elections, go for it I guess, nothing we can do about it, America's open borders have consequences.

I am neither Palestinian nor Muslim but yes I will absolutely vote against the U.S.
enabling the killing of children. I am hoping our lawmakers change course before I am forced to vote against Biden but I will absolutely do so. I cannot look at my (half Jewish) child and tell her that I am just fine with children her age being killed every day by bombs the U.S. supplies. And yes I understand that means I may have to explain to her that is why we always have up to date passports in case we need to seek healthcare in Canada.

Are you planning on driving her to Canada in your gasoline-powered car? Are the kids in Yemen who are also killed by bombs the US supplies in a different tranche for you?

Not voting for Biden "because Israel" is such an absurd idea I have to think you're not arguing as a real person. Is this your new Overton window, suggesting that left wingers don't vote democrat as "protest?"

It's absurd.

As it happens I sent quite a lot of mail to my elected officials about Yemen in the 2017-19 years. Thank you for asking. And I also didn’t support U.S. sales of weapons to Saudi, and didn’t vote for Trump.

Biden has a year before the election to listen to what the voters he needs to win are saying.

Thanks for asking though. You’ve identified my very strict foreign policy criteria of “bombing and starving children is bad”. I can’t believe that constitutes a bleeding heart position these days.

If you cared about babies you would ask Hamas to surrender. Will you be ok with Israel existing as an independent state? No, you won't. That is why you are so so concerned about U.S. funding, you think Israel would not exist w/o the funding. If only that money would go away your dream would come true!

Who would you like me to ask? What is their mailing address? Do I need an international stamp? Should I specify in my note that I believe they need to surrender to the ICC so there can be a public and international accounting for their crimes to counter the astonishing amount of mis and disinformation? You let me know. I’ll get on it.

In the meantime while you’re getting me that information I’ll work on influence the people facilitating the killing of children on the other side of the divide and doing so with my tax dollars. Israel will be just fine and continue to exist without U.S. money.

Go to any current US protest and ask them if Hamas should surrender

If you think someone is present at one of those protests who has the influence with Hamas leadership to demand the release of the hostages you should be calling the FBI not posting on DCUM.

DP. Nice deflection.

Fact is, many do support Hamas. Check the polls.

Ok then answer the prior unanswered question. Who is it you want us to “call on” to release hostages? Who do you want us to call? Who do you want us to write? Given there is no support to Hamas from the U.S. where do you get the delusion that Hamas cares in the slightest about U.S. taxpayer opinion?

You could just stop marching, protesting and writing in support of Hamas.

Easy.

That isn’t “calling on” anyone. I thought you wanted us to ask Hamas to release the hostages a few pages ago?

It sounds like what you are actually saying is “shut up about Israel’s conduct or we’ll keep saying you support Hamas”

Exactly. Propagate lies to justify the sins of Israel, then when those lies lose steam or completely derail under the weight of facts, just resort to employing every dirty trick in the book to shut down the discussion. It’s tired. It’s really, really tired at this point.

"Being Israeled" is a thing. Everyone is sick of it.

You know that anyone can make up a term to use in name calling. It is not a thing. I can make up a term now "being Betty-ed"--meaning being given a nice sincere compliment. "Oh, your hair looks beautiful every single day"--being Betty-ed.

"Being Betty-ed" would be a thing if Betty consistently behaved like this. Same with Israel.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.

If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.

Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.

This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.

you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.

How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?

Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.

Nice that you are honest and admitting what every pro-Palestine protest and socia media post is really about is about--not the immediate safety of anyone in the area (Israeli or Gazan), but the long game of destroying Israel (which we see when we read through the lines, we are not stupid).

[Anonymous]

Hamas is masterful; it accomplished having liberal people in the U.S. believe all their setups, lies, and mutilations.
It is sad that it was not even a real effort required. I assure you I will protect my Jewish neighbors in Olney from zealots found on dcum.
You believed Johnny Depp after all, you are all idiots.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:To be super clear, the pro-Israel argument here is that all but ten members of the UN General Assembly— representing the overwhelming majority of the population of the world— are all pro-Hamas? Most of Europe, Japan, Australia…all pro-Hamas now?

https://time.com/6452308/us-votes-against-un-gaza-ceasefire-reactions/

What are you going on about? Are you just flooding this thread with vaguely anti-Israel nonsense to bury discussion about Hamas brutality and Palestinians' strategic embrace of terrorist violence?

The current discussion seems to be, any criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war, and the U.S.’ support thereof, is “pro-Hamas”.

So does that mean posters believe the vast majority of countries of the world are now pro-Hamas? Even the ones who supported Israel in October?

If you aren't trying to defeat Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.

Literally EVERYONE exchanging thoughts here is supportive of defeating Hamas.

The entire essence of the debate is (1) how to go about achieving that goal (either with regard for the human rights of the innocent civilians [the critics of Israel’s actions] or disregard for human life [the ride or die Zionists who want to defend Israel or obliterate the debate if that defense falls flat]), and then (2) marveling at how truly corrupt and unabashed many Zionists can be in defending the actions of the State of Israel, no matter how inhumane and bloodthirsty for revenge (while feigning shock and outrage that any other group could be allowed to resort to actions that are bloodthirsty for revenge).

if the concern was about the immediate safety of the people that would show in the approach taken--you all focusing on the long game of turning Israel into a villian are not showing care for the immediate safety of Gazans
TODAY-Hamas can surreder. Protest in the streets about that. Protest in front of Hamas's leaders. Instead you protest in front of Austin's house to play the long game in a land dispute.

For the umpteenth time: why do you think Hamas cares what the U.S. taxpayer thinks? Why would they care if we protest?

The U.S. doesn't care if you protest either. Israel doesn't care if you protest. What you protest about shows your values. You don't value an immediate ending the violence. You value the accomplishment of a long term agenda.
The war can come to an end, but it doesn't have to be on your terms. If you insist on that, the rest of us do not need to be concerned with "babies!" cries. If you don't want to use any means necessary to end war, you have no sympathy with me.

As it happens I do. I support an immediate ceasefire. The UN Security Council supports a ceasefire. The two groups that do not support a ceasefire are Israel and Hamas.

Protesting puts pressure on one of those two parties. How do you suggest we put pressure on the other?