This American Life about desegregation in schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the only way for AA students to succeed is to be taken out of their environment. Because what really fails them is not the government, but their own families and community.

Their families make very bad choices like getting pregnant in high school, end up living in poverty, unable to take care of the kids, unable to educate them. Kids grow up among neglect, abuse, bad role models and lack of education values. And no school can fix it.

Are you suggesting that all Black kids should be taken away from their parents?

I very much hope not, but that's what it sounds like.

I am not the OP but there is a lot of truth in the statement. Unless, as a family and as a community those vicious cycles arent broken, there is not much schools can do. He/she is right, no school can fix this.

Agreed. I live in neighborhood in DC where it's a daily occurrence to see a teen mom walking down the sidewalk with her child, yelling and snapping at her child, using every curse word at her disposal, and certainly not in hushed tones. No shame. No sense of the awesome responsibility she has in serving as her child's parent. Can't imagine those kids are EVER read a book before bed. How do schools fix that level of abuse and neglect? The sad cycle continues.

I live in a neighborhood in DC where I also see young mothers walking down the sidewalks with young children, sometimes cursing, sometimes loud. I do not for a single second pretend that those moms are representative of the whole Black community, nor do I believe that the children should be removed from their mother because she yells at them and swears, and I certainly am not making any assumptions about whether or not she reads to them before bed.

Since apparently anecdotes are persuasive to you, I know several young single moms who live in my neighborhood. I've heard them curse at their kids. I also had a TWO HOUR conversation with one of them about preschool options in our neighborhood, when I saw her at the library, with her kids. I saw her again later, at the grocery store, with half a dozen children's books in the basket under her child's stroller. She was hurrying home to get her kids to bed. It was 7pm.

So does your child go to the same school at her child?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:trying to have any discussion over the internet is a waste of time

Bye

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the only way for AA students to succeed is to be taken out of their environment. Because what really fails them is not the government, but their own families and community.

Their families make very bad choices like getting pregnant in high school, end up living in poverty, unable to take care of the kids, unable to educate them. Kids grow up among neglect, abuse, bad role models and lack of education values. And no school can fix it.

Are you suggesting that all Black kids should be taken away from their parents?

I very much hope not, but that's what it sounds like.

I am not the OP but there is a lot of truth in the statement. Unless, as a family and as a community those vicious cycles arent broken, there is not much schools can do. He/she is right, no school can fix this.

Agreed. I live in neighborhood in DC where it's a daily occurrence to see a teen mom walking down the sidewalk with her child, yelling and snapping at her child, using every curse word at her disposal, and certainly not in hushed tones. No shame. No sense of the awesome responsibility she has in serving as her child's parent. Can't imagine those kids are EVER read a book before bed. How do schools fix that level of abuse and neglect? The sad cycle continues.

I live in a neighborhood in DC where I also see young mothers walking down the sidewalks with young children, sometimes cursing, sometimes loud. I do not for a single second pretend that those moms are representative of the whole Black community, nor do I believe that the children should be removed from their mother because she yells at them and swears, and I certainly am not making any assumptions about whether or not she reads to them before bed.

Since apparently anecdotes are persuasive to you, I know several young single moms who live in my neighborhood. I've heard them curse at their kids. I also had a TWO HOUR conversation with one of them about preschool options in our neighborhood, when I saw her at the library, with her kids. I saw her again later, at the grocery store, with half a dozen children's books in the basket under her child's stroller. She was hurrying home to get her kids to bed. It was 7pm.

PP, it's no use. Anecdotes are only persuasive to some of these PPs when it fits with the narrative of lazy, self-destructive AAs with a poor work ethic--otherwise, they'd actually have to face some uncomfortable societal truths related to haves and have-nots in our society. Their cognitive dissonance prevents this.

Although this thread is certainly depressing on one level, I'm also heartened that there are a fair amount of white PPs who seem to get it. For those PPs, I wonder how they came to this more complex, nuanced understanding of race in America? One PP mentioned having a black child, but for the others--was it podcasts such as this one? Conversations with black/Latino friends? Marrying someone of a different race? Whatever the reason, glad there is at least some progress on this front.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the only way for AA students to succeed is to be taken out of their environment. Because what really fails them is not the government, but their own families and community.

Their families make very bad choices like getting pregnant in high school, end up living in poverty, unable to take care of the kids, unable to educate them. Kids grow up among neglect, abuse, bad role models and lack of education values. And no school can fix it.

Are you suggesting that all Black kids should be taken away from their parents?

I very much hope not, but that's what it sounds like.

I am not the OP but there is a lot of truth in the statement. Unless, as a family and as a community those vicious cycles arent broken, there is not much schools can do. He/she is right, no school can fix this.

Agreed. I live in neighborhood in DC where it's a daily occurrence to see a teen mom walking down the sidewalk with her child, yelling and snapping at her child, using every curse word at her disposal, and certainly not in hushed tones. No shame. No sense of the awesome responsibility she has in serving as her child's parent. Can't imagine those kids are EVER read a book before bed. How do schools fix that level of abuse and neglect? The sad cycle continues.

I live in a neighborhood in DC where I also see young mothers walking down the sidewalks with young children, sometimes cursing, sometimes loud. I do not for a single second pretend that those moms are representative of the whole Black community, nor do I believe that the children should be removed from their mother because she yells at them and swears, and I certainly am not making any assumptions about whether or not she reads to them before bed.

Since apparently anecdotes are persuasive to you, I know several young single moms who live in my neighborhood. I've heard them curse at their kids. I also had a TWO HOUR conversation with one of them about preschool options in our neighborhood, when I saw her at the library, with her kids. I saw her again later, at the grocery store, with half a dozen children's books in the basket under her child's stroller. She was hurrying home to get her kids to bed. It was 7pm.

any parent who talks to their kids like that in public is probably a monster private, doesn't matter what time she gets her kids to bed. And yes, a LOT more kids should be taken from their parents, a lot sooner before permanent damage is done. FFS, a judge has Relisha Rudds mom on probation to determine if she should get her other kids back. WTF? THis is a mom who sold her kids for money, drugs whatever. She doens't care about her kids, school or even have a normal capacity for love. She herself was victimized in foster care her whole life. So yes, maybe just maybe the cycle could have been broken if these kids were removed much much sooner. Babies are always easier to adopt out than a 12 year who has been abused for 12 years straight. NO ONE said all black kids should be taken from their parents. There are plenty of white kids who need to be taken from their families too. A year ago there was a huge thread on DCUM about a Post article on an impoverished family in Kentucky, the kids were starving and living off of mountain dew. There was a baby in the family and all I could think was how selfish that mom was to not at least let the baby have a chance. Good social services would encourage this. There are thousands of families dying to adopt babies in this country. We might as well let them pay folks for them.

So, what you're saying is, the mom in question was taken out of her home as a young child and the "problem" wasn't fixed? How does this example help your argument??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the only way for AA students to succeed is to be taken out of their environment. Because what really fails them is not the government, but their own families and community.

Their families make very bad choices like getting pregnant in high school, end up living in poverty, unable to take care of the kids, unable to educate them. Kids grow up among neglect, abuse, bad role models and lack of education values. And no school can fix it.

Are you suggesting that all Black kids should be taken away from their parents?

I very much hope not, but that's what it sounds like.

I am not the OP but there is a lot of truth in the statement. Unless, as a family and as a community those vicious cycles arent broken, there is not much schools can do. He/she is right, no school can fix this.

Agreed. I live in neighborhood in DC where it's a daily occurrence to see a teen mom walking down the sidewalk with her child, yelling and snapping at her child, using every curse word at her disposal, and certainly not in hushed tones. No shame. No sense of the awesome responsibility she has in serving as her child's parent. Can't imagine those kids are EVER read a book before bed. How do schools fix that level of abuse and neglect? The sad cycle continues.

I live in a neighborhood in DC where I also see young mothers walking down the sidewalks with young children, sometimes cursing, sometimes loud. I do not for a single second pretend that those moms are representative of the whole Black community, nor do I believe that the children should be removed from their mother because she yells at them and swears, and I certainly am not making any assumptions about whether or not she reads to them before bed.

Since apparently anecdotes are persuasive to you, I know several young single moms who live in my neighborhood. I've heard them curse at their kids. I also had a TWO HOUR conversation with one of them about preschool options in our neighborhood, when I saw her at the library, with her kids. I saw her again later, at the grocery store, with half a dozen children's books in the basket under her child's stroller. She was hurrying home to get her kids to bed. It was 7pm.

So does your child go to the same school at her child?

No. She ended up sending her child to AppleTree. My child goes to our IB school. Unless she moves, I assume her child will join us there after this coming school year, when she ages out of AppleTree.

[Anonymous]

Black poverty differs from white poverty

In St. Louis, 29.5 percent of poor African Americans live in concentrated poverty. Among poor whites, just 1.6 percent do. Poor whites, in most major metropolitan areas, are spread out. Poor African Americans are not:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/08/12/black-poverty-differs-from-white-poverty/?wpisrc=nl_wonk&wpmm=1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, it's no use. Anecdotes are only persuasive to some of these PPs when it fits with the narrative of lazy, self-destructive AAs with a poor work ethic--otherwise, they'd actually have to face some uncomfortable societal truths related to haves and have-nots in our society. Their cognitive dissonance prevents this.

Although this thread is certainly depressing on one level, I'm also heartened that there are a fair amount of white PPs who seem to get it. For those PPs, I wonder how they came to this more complex, nuanced understanding of race in America? One PP mentioned having a black child, but for the others--was it podcasts such as this one? Conversations with black/Latino friends? Marrying someone of a different race? Whatever the reason, glad there is at least some progress on this front.

I'm the PP - white, with a white child and an Arab husband. I'm a social worker. Understanding the history of the construction of race in America and the intersections of race, class and gender is an integral part of my profession. I appreciate podcasts like this one because they bring the issues I spend my days and nights thinking about into the popular discourse. It's not something I stop thinking about, just because I'm white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that the only way for AA students to succeed is to be taken out of their environment. Because what really fails them is not the government, but their own families and community.

Their families make very bad choices like getting pregnant in high school, end up living in poverty, unable to take care of the kids, unable to educate them. Kids grow up among neglect, abuse, bad role models and lack of education values. And no school can fix it.

Are you suggesting that all Black kids should be taken away from their parents?

I very much hope not, but that's what it sounds like.

I am not the OP but there is a lot of truth in the statement. Unless, as a family and as a community those vicious cycles arent broken, there is not much schools can do. He/she is right, no school can fix this.

Agreed. I live in neighborhood in DC where it's a daily occurrence to see a teen mom walking down the sidewalk with her child, yelling and snapping at her child, using every curse word at her disposal, and certainly not in hushed tones. No shame. No sense of the awesome responsibility she has in serving as her child's parent. Can't imagine those kids are EVER read a book before bed. How do schools fix that level of abuse and neglect? The sad cycle continues.

I live in a neighborhood in DC where I also see young mothers walking down the sidewalks with young children, sometimes cursing, sometimes loud. I do not for a single second pretend that those moms are representative of the whole Black community, nor do I believe that the children should be removed from their mother because she yells at them and swears, and I certainly am not making any assumptions about whether or not she reads to them before bed.

Since apparently anecdotes are persuasive to you, I know several young single moms who live in my neighborhood. I've heard them curse at their kids. I also had a TWO HOUR conversation with one of them about preschool options in our neighborhood, when I saw her at the library, with her kids. I saw her again later, at the grocery store, with half a dozen children's books in the basket under her child's stroller. She was hurrying home to get her kids to bed. It was 7pm.

Yes, isn't it amazing that there are people on DCUM whom are presumably well-educated but still can't distinguish that a racial group is not a monolith?

[Anonymous]

I read about a white heroin addict in the WaPo this morning and how difficult it was for her baby to withdraw from the heroin addiction she developed in her mother's womb. No, I did not decide that all white people are heroin addicts.

I saw a young black mom swearing over the phone about some guy and how he was picking another woman over her and she was going to have to "pop her ass." I was concerned for her kid who was walking beside her, of course, but I did not for one minute assume she was representative of *everyone* in the African American community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

PP, it's no use. Anecdotes are only persuasive to some of these PPs when it fits with the narrative of lazy, self-destructive AAs with a poor work ethic--otherwise, they'd actually have to face some uncomfortable societal truths related to haves and have-nots in our society. Their cognitive dissonance prevents this.

Although this thread is certainly depressing on one level, I'm also heartened that there are a fair amount of white PPs who seem to get it. For those PPs, I wonder how they came to this more complex, nuanced understanding of race in America? One PP mentioned having a black child, but for the others--was it podcasts such as this one? Conversations with black/Latino friends? Marrying someone of a different race? Whatever the reason, glad there is at least some progress on this front.

I found Ta-Nehisi Coates' article on reparations to be very eye opening. Not that I hadn't read any of the facts individually, but reading the whole story together was an 'aha' moment for me. I still struggle to understand exactly what it means, or what to do about it, but I found it very convincing to admit "there was and is a systemic problem". All else aside, I don't understand how people argue with that.

[Anonymous]

The founder of Seed (he is AA) school decided that yes, taking the kids away from their families (at least Mon-Fri) is the way to go...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The founder of Seed (he is AA) school decided that yes, taking the kids away from their families (at least Mon-Fri) is the way to go...

There is a big difference between establishing a school where children live during the week than mandating that all black children be taken away from the black community. BIG difference.

[Anonymous]

When you have entire areas that have been dysfunctional for decades and muliplte generations its the way to go
And before you call me racist there are plenty of rural white areas that have the same issues
It's concentrated levels of SES not race

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When you have entire areas that have been dysfunctional for decades and muliplte generations its the way to go
And before you call me racist there are plenty of rural white areas that have the same issues
It's concentrated levels of SES not race

Stop. Just stop. The way to achieve racial and socioeconomic justice is not for the government to step in and steal people's children. It's ESPECIALLY not for the government to step in and steal people's children in order to sell them to wealthy couples who want to adopt. What you are suggesting is even less viable than forcibly integrating all schools and making the wealthy children attend the schools in high poverty areas. It will not happen, for incredibly good reasons, and your continued suggestion that it's a good idea is just obnoxious.

[Anonymous]

all of you who think more kids (poor, black, or whatever) should be taken away from their families have no idea what foster care is like. The difference between the average foster family for DC kids (many of whom are placed in MD now) and the average birth family from which kids are removed is a LOT smaller than you'd think. I know kids in foster care who live with folks with criminal backgrounds, low education, and a whole mess of other problems. Some are loving and some are not. Some are amazing advocates for their kids and most are not. Removing kids from their birth families is sometimes needed, but expanding it is not the answer. Plus, it is hugely expensive. Stipends of $900+ a month per kid, day care vouchers, Medicaid, counseling, judges, social workers, CASAs, GALs, educational advocates, lawyers for birth parents, court reporters--the list goes on. For some families involved in the foster care system, if you just took all the money spent on the family by CFSA and related entities and mailed them a check each month, you would never have a problem with them again. And for some families if you gave them a million dollars a day, they would still beat or neglect their kids.