Achievement gap continues to grow between high- and low-income schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with focusing on the achievement gap is that it paradoxically increases it. I went to a low performing MCPS school in the late 1980's when there was real tracking and I was in accelerated classes with other like minded/ motivated students. If tracking existed like it did when I was in high school, I wouldn't be as concerned about my children attending the "best" school because I would know my children's needs could be met at most if not all MCPS schools. Today however, I know that I need my kids to be in the most affluent school possible so that there are resources to deal with acceleration. Since there are few bottom kids at my kids' school, I know my kids' teachers can focus on teaching my kids rather than giving them worksheets

I graduated Wheaton High School in the late 1980's. Like the PP above, I was tracked since middle school with the same grouping of about 30 kids. We were given free services such as SAT prep as well as college and career mentoring programs. I graduated with 15 AP credits and was the first in my family to graduate college. I have done well in my career and my children now attend schools in the Winston Churchill cluster.

Would I say my children's education is as good as I received in MCPS in the 1980's just because they attend schools in a W Cluster? Not even close. We supplement with educational programs outside of school to combat areas of the curriculum that are falling short in teaching basic math, reading, and writing skills. I also do not assume that the report card is an accurate reflection of my children's skills.

This is sad.

It's true and we do the same at home. We have family living outside of Philadelphia with a child my son's age. He is leaps and bounds ahead in most subjects.

Really? My best friend lives outside Philly and has a daughter one grade ahead of mine. Our kids are regularly learning things at the same time. In other words, DD is learning them a grade earlier than my friend's daughter in PA.

[Anonymous]

We have family from all over in public and private. I learned early on not to brag about MCPS. It fails beyond words when it comes to writing, grammar, science and history. It seems they only focus on math and reading levels, especially in ES. I mean even on spelling tests you don't have to understand what the word is. Just spell it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honest to goodness, I believe there is one person posting all this ridiculous mess in this thread!
Just dumb ass ridiculous generalizations and outright lies.
It is a wonder Jeff has not shut this crap down !!

Do you really think that's true?

Do you have kids in MCPS?

I think there are lots of valid points being made in this thread. You can call them all 'ridiculous generalizations' and 'lies', but, IMO, that's not very productive.

MCPS faces lots of issues and ignoring them doesn't make them better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think that you have never been a teacher or a coach if you think that hard work is enough. I am thrilled with my students who show perseverance and I will always make time to work with them on strengthening their skills. But I can't award an A if they don't show me that they have mastered what they are supposed to learn. It would be unfair to them to pretend that they are at the top.

You really don't understand math or STEM. Perseverance is one is the most important traits in STEM. Its not dance class. Too many people lack perseverance and this is why so few people succeed in STEM (and end up with a liberal arts degree).

If you have high IQ students with strong work habits and perseverance then the problem is the way you are teaching. You give the grade for what is produced in the end. No need to inflate it but you need to take some responsibility for what you are delivering to your class.

Again, I don't teach math or any STEM-related courses, but why bother to read what I wrote when you can focus on insulting me.

The problem isn't the work ethic. The problem is how they approach the work. Memorization will only get you so far.

I know it is fashionable to see teachers as just "content deliverers", but that isn't how I teach.

Agreed memorization will only get you so far but in many disciplines (physics, biology, economics, history) it is an essential part of the learning process. You cannot do the higher-order thinking unless you can actively recall material. An engineering student cannot solve a complex problem unless she can recall important principles and formulae. A medical doctor cannot diagnose an illness unless she can recall what she learned in anatomy and biochem. Students who take the time to first understand and then commit material to memory are able to think more broadly and creatively especially in a high pressure situation (like an exam). So, to be successful you need to have good teachers, intelligence and a good work ethic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In Asian communities you do not see the academic achievement gap between high and low SES students. Low SES students perform just as well and much of this is cultural expectations that given the opportunity you must do well. Asian communities put less emphasis on being born gifted and see academic achievement as a product of hard work.

MCPS teacher here. With the new standards, hard work isn't enough to achieve academically. I have 6 Asian American students who are struggling. All are native English speakers with highly educated parents. They spend hours working on relatively simple assignments and still don't earn the A. Why? They haven't mastered the skill of applying what they've learned to a new situation/problem. When I speak with these students and their parents, they are studying through the old methods of drilling and memorization.

This has got to be the same moronic teacher that made my blood boil a month or so ago saying that parents should blindly trust teachers regarding student placement. I think she teaches at my kids school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In Asian communities you do not see the academic achievement gap between high and low SES students. Low SES students perform just as well and much of this is cultural expectations that given the opportunity you must do well. Asian communities put less emphasis on being born gifted and see academic achievement as a product of hard work.

MCPS teacher here. With the new standards, hard work isn't enough to achieve academically. I have 6 Asian American students who are struggling. All are native English speakers with highly educated parents. They spend hours working on relatively simple assignments and still don't earn the A. Why? They haven't mastered the skill of applying what they've learned to a new situation/problem. When I speak with these students and their parents, they are studying through the old methods of drilling and memorization.

This has got to be the same moronic teacher that made my blood boil a month or so ago saying that parents should blindly trust teachers regarding student placement. I think she teaches at my kids school.

I don't know what other thread that was, or who the poster is, but with that post, she definitely sounds like a moronic (and racist) teacher. Ugh. Pretty disgusting post.
(and, I'm not Asian American... but I find her disparaging tone quite rude)

[Anonymous]

Agreed memorization will only get you so far but in many disciplines (physics, biology, economics, history) it is an essential part of the learning process. You cannot do the higher-order thinking unless you can actively recall material. An engineering student cannot solve a complex problem unless she can recall important principles and formulae. A medical doctor cannot diagnose an illness unless she can recall what she learned in anatomy and biochem. Students who take the time to first understand and then commit material to memory are able to think more broadly and creatively especially in a high pressure situation (like an exam). So, to be successful you need to have good teachers, intelligence and a good work ethic.

You're very correct that many STEM fields require the ability to absorb and recall large amounts of information. The first year of medical school is brutal based on the sheer amount of information and decision trees that must be absorbed.

The problem is that people who go into education have no exposure to this as a skill. They also probably were the ones who never went past memorization in math. They don't understand that its a combination of recall, fluency and understanding. There is too much bias from US educators that don't understand math toward Chinese and Korean approaches to math which frankly yield far better outcomes.

I think the teachers also miss that the Chinese and Koreans learn math facts in sets. Americans use random flash cards. For American who did this, it is was just memorizing facts. For the Chinese and Koreans learning the tables in sets it provides recognition of patterns and strengthens their ability to manage complex problems later on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Agreed memorization will only get you so far but in many disciplines (physics, biology, economics, history) it is an essential part of the learning process. You cannot do the higher-order thinking unless you can actively recall material. An engineering student cannot solve a complex problem unless she can recall important principles and formulae. A medical doctor cannot diagnose an illness unless she can recall what she learned in anatomy and biochem. Students who take the time to first understand and then commit material to memory are able to think more broadly and creatively especially in a high pressure situation (like an exam). So, to be successful you need to have good teachers, intelligence and a good work ethic.

You're very correct that many STEM fields require the ability to absorb and recall large amounts of information. The first year of medical school is brutal based on the sheer amount of information and decision trees that must be absorbed.

The problem is that people who go into education have no exposure to this as a skill. They also probably were the ones who never went past memorization in math. They don't understand that its a combination of recall, fluency and understanding. There is too much bias from US educators that don't understand math toward Chinese and Korean approaches to math which frankly yield far better outcomes.

I think the teachers also miss that the Chinese and Koreans learn math facts in sets. Americans use random flash cards. For American who did this, it is was just memorizing facts. For the Chinese and Koreans learning the tables in sets it provides recognition of patterns and strengthens their ability to manage complex problems later on.

As a college professor I agree with both the previous posters. When I tell my students they have to first understand and then memorize facts and concepts/theories before they can apply this knowledge they are taken aback. It is a learned skill and if they have not been doing this in middle and high school, it is really difficult to learn in college when you have so much on your plate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Agreed memorization will only get you so far but in many disciplines (physics, biology, economics, history) it is an essential part of the learning process. You cannot do the higher-order thinking unless you can actively recall material. An engineering student cannot solve a complex problem unless she can recall important principles and formulae. A medical doctor cannot diagnose an illness unless she can recall what she learned in anatomy and biochem. Students who take the time to first understand and then commit material to memory are able to think more broadly and creatively especially in a high pressure situation (like an exam). So, to be successful you need to have good teachers, intelligence and a good work ethic.

You're very correct that many STEM fields require the ability to absorb and recall large amounts of information. The first year of medical school is brutal based on the sheer amount of information and decision trees that must be absorbed.

The problem is that people who go into education have no exposure to this as a skill. They also probably were the ones who never went past memorization in math. They don't understand that its a combination of recall, fluency and understanding. There is too much bias from US educators that don't understand math toward Chinese and Korean approaches to math which frankly yield far better outcomes.

I think the teachers also miss that the Chinese and Koreans learn math facts in sets. Americans use random flash cards. For American who did this, it is was just memorizing facts. For the Chinese and Koreans learning the tables in sets it provides recognition of patterns and strengthens their ability to manage complex problems later on.


I agree completely with the bolded part. I tried very hard to find my son the addition table and times table in a small card but couldn't find them. It is all random flash card stuff. I don't recall anyone in my childhood had trouble memorizing the times table. I think seeing them in those sets must have made it much easier to learn. Also I don't get the memorizing times table up to 12 business. In China, it is up to nine and the table will only show a triangle because half of the rectangle are the same so that students naturally understand for multiplication the order of the two numbers doesn't matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Agreed memorization will only get you so far but in many disciplines (physics, biology, economics, history) it is an essential part of the learning process. You cannot do the higher-order thinking unless you can actively recall material. An engineering student cannot solve a complex problem unless she can recall important principles and formulae. A medical doctor cannot diagnose an illness unless she can recall what she learned in anatomy and biochem. Students who take the time to first understand and then commit material to memory are able to think more broadly and creatively especially in a high pressure situation (like an exam). So, to be successful you need to have good teachers, intelligence and a good work ethic.

You're very correct that many STEM fields require the ability to absorb and recall large amounts of information. The first year of medical school is brutal based on the sheer amount of information and decision trees that must be absorbed.

The problem is that people who go into education have no exposure to this as a skill. They also probably were the ones who never went past memorization in math. They don't understand that its a combination of recall, fluency and understanding. There is too much bias from US educators that don't understand math toward Chinese and Korean approaches to math which frankly yield far better outcomes.

I think the teachers also miss that the Chinese and Koreans learn math facts in sets. Americans use random flash cards. For American who did this, it is was just memorizing facts. For the Chinese and Koreans learning the tables in sets it provides recognition of patterns and strengthens their ability to manage complex problems later on.

Didn't mean to put this in quote.

I agree completely with the bolded part. I tried very hard to find my son the addition table and times table in a small card but couldn't find them. It is all random flash card stuff. I don't recall anyone in my childhood had trouble memorizing the times table. I think seeing them in those sets must have made it much easier to learn. Also I don't get the memorizing times table up to 12 business. In China, it is up to nine and the table will only show a triangle because half of the rectangle are the same so that students naturally understand for multiplication the order of the two numbers doesn't matter.

[Anonymous]

I agree completely with the bolded part. I tried very hard to find my son the addition table and times table in a small card but couldn't find them. It is all random flash card stuff. I don't recall anyone in my childhood had trouble memorizing the times table. I think seeing them in those sets must have made it much easier to learn. Also I don't get the memorizing times table up to 12 business. In China, it is up to nine and the table will only show a triangle because half of the rectangle are the same so that students naturally understand for multiplication the order of the two numbers doesn't matter.

Exactly! There are so many simple, visual ways that other countries use successfully to teach math understanding. I don't understand why American educators can't grasp this. I observed my child's class and I'm relieved that she already knows these concepts. The poor teacher was trying to describe in words the most convoluted process that confused her more than the students!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In Asian communities you do not see the academic achievement gap between high and low SES students. Low SES students perform just as well and much of this is cultural expectations that given the opportunity you must do well. Asian communities put less emphasis on being born gifted and see academic achievement as a product of hard work.

MCPS teacher here. With the new standards, hard work isn't enough to achieve academically. I have 6 Asian American students who are struggling. All are native English speakers with highly educated parents. They spend hours working on relatively simple assignments and still don't earn the A. Why? They haven't mastered the skill of applying what they've learned to a new situation/problem. When I speak with these students and their parents, they are studying through the old methods of drilling and memorization.

No offense but the new way is bullsh*t. 2.0 blows.

Agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In Asian communities you do not see the academic achievement gap between high and low SES students. Low SES students perform just as well and much of this is cultural expectations that given the opportunity you must do well. Asian communities put less emphasis on being born gifted and see academic achievement as a product of hard work.

MCPS teacher here. With the new standards, hard work isn't enough to achieve academically. I have 6 Asian American students who are struggling. All are native English speakers with highly educated parents. They spend hours working on relatively simple assignments and still don't earn the A. Why? They haven't mastered the skill of applying what they've learned to a new situation/problem. When I speak with these students and their parents, they are studying through the old methods of drilling and memorization.

This has got to be the same moronic teacher that made my blood boil a month or so ago saying that parents should blindly trust teachers regarding student placement. I think she teaches at my kids school.

This isn't just the case with Asians; it's true for all students.

Years ago, I would have said the same thing. Kids were not being taught HOW to think, and even more importantly, they were not being asked to understand HOW they learned.

Curriculum 2.0 does just that. So the teacher above is correct. While many of you were taught one way to examine a math problem, 2.0 looks at processes. We would be nowhere as a country if we didn't have scientists and mathematicians who looked beyond the typical ways of solving problems.

Last year, my daughter was in a private school. She had - on average - 20 math problems to solve . . . all the same, by the way. This year, in public, it may take her 15 minutes to work on one math problem b/c there may be several ways to approach it. Not only must she solve these problems, but she must also write out her process, which is very difficult to do.

This isn't to say that higher order thinking completely replaces memorization. She knows her math facts. She continues to practice them weekly.

But while so many of you look at the world in black and white, I want my daughter (and students) to appreciate the gray - to be comfortable with the fact that there may not BE only one answer.

[Anonymous]

Thank-you PP. Your thoughts correspond with my sons evaluation of Algebra I posted earlier. He learns more/better under 2.0 because it is less rote and more conceptual. Maybe this is harder to do in ES - we weren't there for 2.0...but life under the old system wasn't great either!

[Anonymous]

Do you realize how much less you are learning when it takes your child 15min to do one problem? I get the wanting to show/understand but a good teacher should be doing that in class, not asking students to do it/learn it at home at the cost of 15 minutes a problem.

10 minutes asking the kids to get 4 things in the class, get 5 more. Put them together. Write the problem on the board. Have kids explain it. Go home doing NORMAL math problems.