Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.
I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.
It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.
Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.
End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.
What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?
It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.
If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.
Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?
I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.
That’s 7 times more than the number HAMAS says were killed, but ok.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
All of them. Why do you ask?
Because I have so many questions. I’m trying to learn as much as I can about this area of the world. I tend to hyper focus on topics and then abruptly move on to something else.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
Why are you so interested in classifying Jews? All of them serve and have served in Israel’s military, along with Muslims and Druze and Christians.
It seems like the Mizrahi have stronger ties to Israel though, as an objective observer.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
Why are you so interested in classifying Jews? All of them serve and have served in Israel’s military, along with Muslims and Druze and Christians.
It seems like the Mizrahi have stronger ties to Israel though, as an objective observer.
Why’s that, just because their families used to live all around the Middle East? At this point, most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in Israel have also been there for multiple generations. Many Mizrahi Jews moved there after the state was declared.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.
I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.
It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.
Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.
End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.
What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?
It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.
If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.
Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?
I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.
Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
Why are you so interested in classifying Jews? All of them serve and have served in Israel’s military, along with Muslims and Druze and Christians.
It seems like the Mizrahi have stronger ties to Israel though, as an objective observer.
Why’s that, just because their families used to live all around the Middle East? At this point, most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in Israel have also been there for multiple generations. Many Mizrahi Jews moved there after the state was declared.
Is there discrimination within Jewish culture amongst these groups?
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.
I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.
It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.
Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.
End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.
What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?
It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.
If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.
Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?
I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.
Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.
They don't want the hostages back. Otherwise, they will have no excuse to allow them to "finish the job"
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
All of them. Why do you ask?
Because I have so many questions. I’m trying to learn as much as I can about this area of the world. I tend to hyper focus on topics and then abruptly move on to something else.
Find better sources than DCUM for your basic history education maybe?
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.
I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.
It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.
Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.
End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.
What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?
It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.
If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.
Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?
I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.
Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.
I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.
Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
Why are you so interested in classifying Jews? All of them serve and have served in Israel’s military, along with Muslims and Druze and Christians.
It seems like the Mizrahi have stronger ties to Israel though, as an objective observer.
Why’s that, just because their families used to live all around the Middle East? At this point, most Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in Israel have also been there for multiple generations. Many Mizrahi Jews moved there after the state was declared.
Is there discrimination within Jewish culture amongst these groups?
On a social level, sure, sort of the same way someone from the northern US might look down on a southerner. Nothing like the division between Sunnis and Shiites though.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.
I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.
It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.
Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.
End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.
What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?
It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.
If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.
Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?
I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.
Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.
I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.
Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.
Remind me what was going on on October 6 again, was Israel carrying out its “operational plans” then? What changed? Who broke THAT ceasefire?
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
If a Romani state existed, even if it came into being through the seizure of land in Pakistan, then I would agree 80 years later that the state should continue to exist.
I’m not dismissive about Romanis, I just don’t see why you think your hypothetical question about them has any bearing on what I’m supposed to think about Israel today.
It’s very possible that in 1948, I would have opposed the establishment of the state of Israel, especially if I knew then what we all know now about how some of the early Zionist partisans conducted their attempt to build a country. But that’s also not really relevant to what to do about it now, either.
Lol so because it's done, Israel gets grandfathered in, but you admit it was wrong and shouldn't exist.
End the apartheid. Call it whatever you want, but end the apartheid.
What does that mean to you in practice? What does that actually look like?
It means let those people out of those ghettos you call Palestine. Give them full citizenship and voting rights. End the laws codifying Jewish supremacy in the country. Pay reparations to the people whose homes were stolen.
If Jews wanted to return to their homeland, no one was stopping them. The problem was stealing the country and trying to erase the people who lived there. It was wrong when the US did it, and it's wrong now.
Got it so you think Israel should let all 2 million Gazans, 70% of whom said October 7 was a good idea when polled, live within Israel’s borders. How do you think that’s going to go for Israelis? What incentive do they have to do that? If you were an Israeli, would you support that plan?
I think it's more like 1.5 million. Israel already exterminated around 400k in their genocide and pretty soon it'll be much more than that.
Hopefully not. Like many American Jews, I believe Israel should have ended the war in Gaza a long time ago. Perhaps now that Netanyahu owes the Trump administration for bombing Iran, the White House can push for immediate peace in Gaza and a return of the Israeli hostages.
I am baffled how and why you think Israel/Netanyahu gives one iota of a crap about the hostages. It's been very clear for a long time (and admitted in leaked documents) that they don't care. Getting the hostages back was never an interest - it would conflict with their other operational plans.
Rememeber - the was a ceasefire in place. It was working. And then remember who broke it.
I obviously don’t think that, that’s why I’m resorting to hoping Donald Trump, of all people, will step in and be helpful.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
All of them. Why do you ask?
Because I have so many questions. I’m trying to learn as much as I can about this area of the world. I tend to hyper focus on topics and then abruptly move on to something else.
Find better sources than DCUM for your basic history education maybe?
I read anything I can, I read for 20 hours straight sometimes until I feel like I’ve learned enough. Thanks for your help.
Anonymous wrote:If everyone planned on moving to one’s country of origin from 1000-2000 years ago, what a mess that would be. Is everyone living in Israel pure 100% Israeli? Like the Native Americans are here?
Huh? You are confusing this metaphor. Palestinian activists typically claim they are the true indigenous people of the land (like the Native Americans here). They claim that (like the USA), Israelis stole their land and kicked them out. Even accepting for argument’s sake that they are right, no American would tolerate Navajo nationalists blowing up buses and kidnapping civilians in Tucson in an effort to reclaim Arizona.
Ok so a simple dna test would prove who has ties to the land and who does not. If one has minimal to no ties they have no right kicking people off the land. Yes things like this have been done historically by the US, hundreds of years ago.
Ok cool so to be clear, your proposed solution is to DNA test every Israeli/American, and deport all those you consider to have insufficient middle eastern/Native American DNA. Sounds like a great, very non-eugenics-y plan!
If the argument is over who the land belongs to then yes, this is fair.
So you support your own deportation from the US, right? Or is Land Back something you care about just when Jews are involved? Btw a dna test will largely support Jews staying in Israel, but not you staying in the US.
No you are misunderstanding me. We are discussing why antizionism may exist. It’s like me claiming land in Europe belongs to me because my relatives immigrated from there.
That’s not what Israelis claim, for the most part. There has been a CONTINUOUS Jewish presence in Israel for 2000 years. And those Jews who immigrated to the land while it was still part of the British mandate (there was never a Palestinian state there), settled it, developed it, built whole cities on what used to be sand dunes, then gained official recognition as a state through formal international channels (the United Nations). Google “Tel Aviv 1909” for a picture of what it used to look like.
Atrocities were committed by both sides during/before the founding of the state, but people seem to think that a bunch of Jews just swooped in in 1948, shot a bunch of Arabs in the face and moved into their houses. That’s not how any of this went down.
Sure there's been a continuous presence Of Jews that are indigenous to the land. But that group is very different genetically and culturally from the predominantly Ashkenazi Jews settler colonists from Europe. To conflate the two is incredibly misleading.
They do it on purpose, so they can pretend Israel isn't just another white supremacist settler colonial project.
Explain, in detail, why you think Israel, a country that is 20% non-Jewish Arab and 32% Mizrahi (or to put it in words you can understand, “brown people”) is WHITE SUPREMACIST. That’s not even getting into the fact that the Ahskenazi Jewish population descends from holocaust survivors who were persecuted specifically for being non-white/aryan.
Please. I’ll wait.
What about the Romani people who also perished in the Holocaust? They have been forced to into nomadic life due to being kicked out if their homeland as well.
Yes, that’s also bad. What does the fact that Europeans have treated the Romani badly mean for Israel in 2025?
It’s just an analogous situation, if Jews are entitled to Israel, Romanis are entitled to part of Pakistan/India. I believe they are overlooked because they’re darker skinned individuals.
A plurality of Israeli Jews are also now darker-skinned individuals. It is an analogous situation, sure. Perhaps one day we can have endless pages of debate over a Romani state, too.
You’re very dismissive about Romanis, do you believe that a Romani state has a right to exist?
Maybe they can take over Israel? Who cares of other people live there - the Romanis deserve a homeland.
Listen, if there was no actual established country within Israel’s borders and the Romanis formed a national movement, immigrated to Israel en masse, established cities, infrastructure, agriculture, education, government, and a military, and defeated their adversaries in like twelve successive wars, then yeah - they’d get that land. That’s just how things work and always have.
Which Jews fought these twelve wars? Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi?
All of them. Why do you ask?
Because I have so many questions. I’m trying to learn as much as I can about this area of the world. I tend to hyper focus on topics and then abruptly move on to something else.
Find better sources than DCUM for your basic history education maybe?
I read anything I can, I read for 20 hours straight sometimes until I feel like I’ve learned enough. Thanks for your help.
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