Why the push for accelerated math?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the trolls lying about "many other countries" they know nothing about. They are same ones who think their $300-$1M annual HHI is "middle class"

What those people fail to fully grasp, is that many of the countries where the majority of HS are advanced in Math and Science track students starting in ES and they don't educate every student in the country. The scores that we see are the scores of the kids who made it through 2-3 levels of testing that allowed them to attend a college prep HS. We don't see the scores of the kids who are weeded out of those tracks in ES or MS or the kids who never attended school. While the scores in the US represent the scores of all students in the US, regardless of ability and or likelihood of attending college in the future.

Europe does this, there are tests in 5th year, which I think is the equivalent of 4th grade in the US, to determine what school you attend for MS and HS. Kids who don't do well on those tests are sent to schools that lead to votech schools, kids who score high enough on them are sent to schools that are all college prep. Kids at the college prep MS/HS can be moved to the votech schools if their grades drop. The ones who do well enough in their classes will sit their A levels.

I know that South Korea, Japan, and China have kids take tests in ES and MS and HS for promotion and that those tests are stressful.

We are not comparing apples and oranges when we compare the US scores to the rest of the worlds.

irrelevant world detour.

In FCPS, Algebra 1 by 8th grade is considered gen ed, while AAP students enroll in Geometry in 8th, and advanced students complete Algebra 2 by that time.

"All eighth grade students can enroll in Algebra or Algebra Honors. There are no pre-requisites."

[Anonymous]

Yeah, the more open enrollment for Algebra 1 in 7th (only passed advanced on the SOL) and totally open enrollment for 8th grade is going to be a disaster. Yes, parents can expunge grades and kids can retake the class, but it is going to hurt a kid's confidence in their math skills. And there will be parents who have no idea that they can switch to M8H or expunge the grade, leaving kids ill prepared for the next math class.

I guess FCPS needs to look at the national stats and realize that the math track is already accelerated. Math scores for FCPS will likely drop because of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, the more open enrollment for Algebra 1 in 7th (only passed advanced on the SOL) and totally open enrollment for 8th grade is going to be a disaster. Yes, parents can expunge grades and kids can retake the class, but it is going to hurt a kid's confidence in their math skills. And there will be parents who have no idea that they can switch to M8H or expunge the grade, leaving kids ill prepared for the next math class.

I guess FCPS needs to look at the national stats and realize that the math track is already accelerated. Math scores for FCPS will likely drop because of this.

Are you kidding me? Algebra 1 is not a difficult class. If a kid is doing poorly it is due to lack of effort or potentially a learning disability. Yes, you have to actually look at the material at home and complete the homework to do well on the tests. Many kids are too lazy to do that and get bad grades, but it's not because the material is too difficult for an average 8th grader or a smart 7th grader. Stop making excuses for lazy students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, the more open enrollment for Algebra 1 in 7th (only passed advanced on the SOL) and totally open enrollment for 8th grade is going to be a disaster. Yes, parents can expunge grades and kids can retake the class, but it is going to hurt a kid's confidence in their math skills. And there will be parents who have no idea that they can switch to M8H or expunge the grade, leaving kids ill prepared for the next math class.

I guess FCPS needs to look at the national stats and realize that the math track is already accelerated. Math scores for FCPS will likely drop because of this.

Are you kidding me? Algebra 1 is not a difficult class. If a kid is doing poorly it is due to lack of effort or potentially a learning disability. Yes, you have to actually look at the material at home and complete the homework to do well on the tests. Many kids are too lazy to do that and get bad grades, but it's not because the material is too difficult for an average 8th grader or a smart 7th grader. Stop making excuses for lazy students.

This is stupid. If Algebra 1 is not a difficult class, why not teach it in 3rd grade?
There is a ladder of difficulty over many years. Skipping rungs or climbing to quickly for an individual students development is bad. Sitting on low rungs or climbing artificially slowly is also bad. Personalization is what is needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and I'm not sure if I'm just caught up in the Northern Virginia mindset.

Our child scored well on both the Iowa and the SOL and their teacher recommends they take out for one next year in seventh grade. I'm sitting here wondering why?

I completely understand why it's beneficial for some maybe even the majority of kids to take calculus in their senior year. But how many kids are really going to benefit from taking 2 years of calculus?

So I guess my question is what's the point? Aside for taking an extra year of college math in high school, why do it?

So far I come up with it. Might look better on college applications, make college classes either easier or something you can get credit for while in HS.

I have this underlying fear that they are going to push anyone who scores well into algebra 1, so there are less kids in 7th grade honors. That allows for smaller classes and helps with the goal of Algebra for all by grade 8

Yes, it’s the race to no where. Many students take Calculus 1 at universities—it’s still taught there.

But low-income families save money on college tuition by taking Calculus I and II in high school. It appears you have a problem with low-income families taking advantage of free public school resources?

Low income families aren’t going to pay for college anyway. The high achieving low income students (and not DC low income of only 200k) are getting a free ride at most colleges, but especially the competitive ones.

Exactly. Middle-income families save ton of money on college tuition by taking Calculus I and II in high school.

How much are they saving? Be specific.

Even if they save a penny, that's a penny that can be used towards bread and milk in college meals.

For AP Calculus BC, it's 3 or 4 credits of tuition savings depending on college.

On an average,
"Public 4-year institutions charge around $625 per credit hour for in-state students and $1,223 for out-of-state students, while private 4-year institutions average $1,527 per credit hour."

Students would need to change to part-time to pay by credit-hour. How many are realistically doing that? If they remain full-time for 4 years then they aren't saving anything.

Huh? My large university charges by credit hour.

Which one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, the more open enrollment for Algebra 1 in 7th (only passed advanced on the SOL) and totally open enrollment for 8th grade is going to be a disaster. Yes, parents can expunge grades and kids can retake the class, but it is going to hurt a kid's confidence in their math skills. And there will be parents who have no idea that they can switch to M8H or expunge the grade, leaving kids ill prepared for the next math class.

I guess FCPS needs to look at the national stats and realize that the math track is already accelerated. Math scores for FCPS will likely drop because of this.

Are you kidding me? Algebra 1 is not a difficult class. If a kid is doing poorly it is due to lack of effort or potentially a learning disability. Yes, you have to actually look at the material at home and complete the homework to do well on the tests. Many kids are too lazy to do that and get bad grades, but it's not because the material is too difficult for an average 8th grader or a smart 7th grader. Stop making excuses for lazy students.

There are many people who find Algebra challenging, I am one of them. I am thrilled that my child has my husband's math sense and skills because mine suck. I took Algebra in 9th grade, regular, and was happy with my A-. Not everyone grasps math. And yes, I had learning disabilities. Ten percent of the global population has dyslexia. About 10 percent of the population has dysgraphia, the numbers vary in studies because it is dysgraphia is commonly misdiagnosed. Seven percent of the population has dyscalculia. My point? There are a good number of people with learning disabilites that impact understanding math. I would guess when you go through all of the LDs you will end up around 25% of the population having an identifiable LD, probably multiple, and struggling with school.

Never mind the kids with ADHD and executive functioning issues that make math classes challenging.

Prereqs for math classes are great because they make sure that kids have the foundation they need in order to be able to succeed. Remove those prereqs and you will have parents pushing their kids into classes that the kid isn't ready for and struggling because the parent thinks the kid has to be in the highest class possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the trolls lying about "many other countries" they know nothing about. They are same ones who think their $300-$1M annual HHI is "middle class"

Most of the world is done with geometry and single variable algebra before high school. Just Asia is like 60% of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the trolls lying about "many other countries" they know nothing about. They are same ones who think their $300-$1M annual HHI is "middle class"

What those people fail to fully grasp, is that many of the countries where the majority of HS are advanced in Math and Science track students starting in ES and they don't educate every student in the country. The scores that we see are the scores of the kids who made it through 2-3 levels of testing that allowed them to attend a college prep HS. We don't see the scores of the kids who are weeded out of those tracks in ES or MS or the kids who never attended school. While the scores in the US represent the scores of all students in the US, regardless of ability and or likelihood of attending college in the future.

Europe does this, there are tests in 5th year, which I think is the equivalent of 4th grade in the US, to determine what school you attend for MS and HS. Kids who don't do well on those tests are sent to schools that lead to votech schools, kids who score high enough on them are sent to schools that are all college prep. Kids at the college prep MS/HS can be moved to the votech schools if their grades drop. The ones who do well enough in their classes will sit their A levels.

I know that South Korea, Japan, and China have kids take tests in ES and MS and HS for promotion and that those tests are stressful.

We are not comparing apples and oranges when we compare the US scores to the rest of the worlds.

PISA seems to test all 15 year old whether they are in vocational school or not.

Since PISA assesses 15-year-olds, the number of vocational students it tests in most countries is zero. In those few countries where students follow different tracks at younger ages, the results do not always support the conclusion that vocational students perform less well

https://www.educationnext.org/pisa-mission-failure-with-so-much-evidence-student-testing-why-do-education-systems-struggle/#:~:text=Since%20PISA%20assesses%2015%2Dyear,vocational%20students%20perform%20less%20well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the trolls lying about "many other countries" they know nothing about. They are same ones who think their $300-$1M annual HHI is "middle class"

What those people fail to fully grasp, is that many of the countries where the majority of HS are advanced in Math and Science track students starting in ES and they don't educate every student in the country. The scores that we see are the scores of the kids who made it through 2-3 levels of testing that allowed them to attend a college prep HS. We don't see the scores of the kids who are weeded out of those tracks in ES or MS or the kids who never attended school. While the scores in the US represent the scores of all students in the US, regardless of ability and or likelihood of attending college in the future.

Europe does this, there are tests in 5th year, which I think is the equivalent of 4th grade in the US, to determine what school you attend for MS and HS. Kids who don't do well on those tests are sent to schools that lead to votech schools, kids who score high enough on them are sent to schools that are all college prep. Kids at the college prep MS/HS can be moved to the votech schools if their grades drop. The ones who do well enough in their classes will sit their A levels.

I know that South Korea, Japan, and China have kids take tests in ES and MS and HS for promotion and that those tests are stressful.

We are not comparing apples and oranges when we compare the US scores to the rest of the worlds.

irrelevant world detour.

In FCPS, Algebra 1 by 8th grade is considered gen ed, while AAP students enroll in Geometry in 8th, and advanced students complete Algebra 2 by that time.

"All eighth grade students can enroll in Algebra or Algebra Honors. There are no pre-requisites."

But some schools are better at providing these options than others. Let's just be honest here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the trolls lying about "many other countries" they know nothing about. They are same ones who think their $300-$1M annual HHI is "middle class"

Most of the world is done with geometry and single variable algebra before high school. Just Asia is like 60% of the world.

Yes, some children in those countries take those advanced classes while others are working 12-hour days in a sweatshop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like I'm taking crazy pills and I'm not sure if I'm just caught up in the Northern Virginia mindset.

Our child scored well on both the Iowa and the SOL and their teacher recommends they take out for one next year in seventh grade. I'm sitting here wondering why?

I completely understand why it's beneficial for some maybe even the majority of kids to take calculus in their senior year. But how many kids are really going to benefit from taking 2 years of calculus?

So I guess my question is what's the point? Aside for taking an extra year of college math in high school, why do it?

So far I come up with it. Might look better on college applications, make college classes either easier or something you can get credit for while in HS.

I have this underlying fear that they are going to push anyone who scores well into algebra 1, so there are less kids in 7th grade honors. That allows for smaller classes and helps with the goal of Algebra for all by grade 8

Yes, it’s the race to no where. Many students take Calculus 1 at universities—it’s still taught there.

But low-income families save money on college tuition by taking Calculus I and II in high school. It appears you have a problem with low-income families taking advantage of free public school resources?

Low income families aren’t going to pay for college anyway. The high achieving low income students (and not DC low income of only 200k) are getting a free ride at most colleges, but especially the competitive ones.

Exactly. Middle-income families save ton of money on college tuition by taking Calculus I and II in high school.

How much are they saving? Be specific.

Even if they save a penny, that's a penny that can be used towards bread and milk in college meals.

For AP Calculus BC, it's 3 or 4 credits of tuition savings depending on college.

On an average,
"Public 4-year institutions charge around $625 per credit hour for in-state students and $1,223 for out-of-state students, while private 4-year institutions average $1,527 per credit hour."

Students would need to change to part-time to pay by credit-hour. How many are realistically doing that? If they remain full-time for 4 years then they aren't saving anything.

Huh? My large university charges by credit hour.

Np. What pp is describing is common. My large undergrad and small grad school both charged a set tuition for full-time students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the trolls lying about "many other countries" they know nothing about. They are same ones who think their $300-$1M annual HHI is "middle class"

What those people fail to fully grasp, is that many of the countries where the majority of HS are advanced in Math and Science track students starting in ES and they don't educate every student in the country. The scores that we see are the scores of the kids who made it through 2-3 levels of testing that allowed them to attend a college prep HS. We don't see the scores of the kids who are weeded out of those tracks in ES or MS or the kids who never attended school. While the scores in the US represent the scores of all students in the US, regardless of ability and or likelihood of attending college in the future.

Europe does this, there are tests in 5th year, which I think is the equivalent of 4th grade in the US, to determine what school you attend for MS and HS. Kids who don't do well on those tests are sent to schools that lead to votech schools, kids who score high enough on them are sent to schools that are all college prep. Kids at the college prep MS/HS can be moved to the votech schools if their grades drop. The ones who do well enough in their classes will sit their A levels.

I know that South Korea, Japan, and China have kids take tests in ES and MS and HS for promotion and that those tests are stressful.

We are not comparing apples and oranges when we compare the US scores to the rest of the worlds.

irrelevant world detour.

In FCPS, Algebra 1 by 8th grade is considered gen ed, while AAP students enroll in Geometry in 8th, and advanced students complete Algebra 2 by that time.

"All eighth grade students can enroll in Algebra or Algebra Honors. There are no pre-requisites."

But some schools are better at providing these options than others. Let's just be honest here.

These are all FCPS schools, managed by FCPS. Students leverage what's provisioned to them, and do their part by showing up at school without attendance issues and putting in hardwork to learn. Few schools are better than others academically, similar to how few schools have better performing sports teams than others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just ignore the trolls lying about "many other countries" they know nothing about. They are same ones who think their $300-$1M annual HHI is "middle class"

Most of the world is done with geometry and single variable algebra before high school. Just Asia is like 60% of the world.

Yes, some children in those countries take those advanced classes while others are working 12-hour days in a sweatshop.

Even if that were material and significant, do you think the sweatshops select those with low academic ability?

[Anonymous]

I wanted to offer a different perspective with some anectodal data from the Midwest. Our HS school district is hardly the most competitive in the area, but ~50 seniors out of a class of ~750 took MV Calculus/Linear Algebra this past year after having taken Calculus AB or BC junior year. Approx. 4 seniors had already taken MVC/LA and either didn't take math this year or took higher math through college programs.

At the middle school level, 25 7th graders out of ~150 took Algebra 1 this year and two 7th graders took Geometry.

The vast majority of the kids on these tracks enjoy math and would be bored in lower level classes. Also, these kids run the gamut: some are passionate about math and seek out outside enrichment opportunities; others are high-level athletes and have other interests and are just really good at math.

It's curious that so many people on this thread are arguing about what is accelerated vs. normal when the real issue is that the arms race in math is unavoidable, especially with so many bright international students vying for a spot at US universities. The parents who are arguing that acceleration is a "race to nowhere" are rightly afraid that their children will struggle to keep up with the top of the class. But clearly, there are many American kids who can handle and even relish the opportunity to learn higher math alongside their peers in high school and middle school. America needs to keep offering these opportunities in order to keep up our global competitiveness. If kids can handle it (I'm all for testing in), let them accelerate.

[Anonymous]

Ha! Anecdotal*