Expats

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They aren't brief slip ups, they are just further examples of how they treat the helpers. This dynamic is seen in every single episode.

Yes, the difference with this episode was that it showed the interactions from the perspective of the helpers. For me, prior to this episode I might have agreed with the people defending Hilary, but after watching this one I can't. I feel differently about Margaret -- her situation is different because Essie has a relationship with her kids and the situation with Gus is impacting everyone in weird ways. I really respect her self-awareness about why she left Essie behind that day and the fact that she felt the need to explain it to Essie and at least try to relieve Essie of any guilt she might be feeling about Gus. She's not perfect but she demonstrates empathy, at least, and I think wants to do the right thing.

Hilary is a narcissist and consistently uses her helper to try and triangulate her messed up relationship with her crappy husband. No thank you. She's not a "villain" but she sucks.

I wanted to add that I think it's dumb Hilary and David even have live-in help. I can see two people with high-powered jobs having a full-time housekeeper who would clean, cook, help with event planning, etc. But if there are not children to tend to in the evenings, I actually think it would just be incredibly weird to have another adult in your home at night and on the weekend when you would normally be alone with your spouse.

Probably it's cheaper to hire a helper like Puri where providing room and board is part of her compensation and that's why people like that would do it. But I'm imagining being at home with my husband on a Tuesday night and having someone else around cleaning up after us and sleeping down the hall from our bedroom... it would be weird. They'd wind up knowing so much about your life (how often you have sex, whether you gossip about the neighbors, what makes you fight, etc.). I think it would be hard to make that relationship feel normal.

Totally agree it’s weird to have Puri live-in for a couple!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why so many people are defending Hilary. She was awful in that episode. Granted, she is reeling from discovering her husband's affair and then finding out about the pregnancy (and then finding out it's Mercy). So yes, some grace. But some of how she treats Puri is obviously really gross and I think it's very strange people are defending it:

The worst thing she does is drag Puri into that fight with her husband. That scene was so cringeworthy to me. Hilary *demands* that Puri stay for the fight even though David asks her to leave them and it's obvious Puri feels uncomfortable (who wouldn't?). But then Hilary specifically uses Puri in the fight, telling David that it's the "Hong Kong curse," that men come to Hong Kong and are waited on hand and foot by women like Puri and it ruins their marriages. She literally points at Puri and calls her David's "servant" (I mean, she is a servant but there's a reason they are called helpers instead -- no one wants to be pointed at and called servant). And then Hilary lists things Puri does for David as though this is the reason they are having marital issues. It's really, really gross, and viewing that scene from Puri's point of view made me really dislike Hilary.

The fact that she then basically orders Puri to spend the evening drinking with her because she doesn't want to be alone makes it even worse. It's very clear that this is not something Puri and Hilary have ever done together or that Puri feels comfortable with. It's definitely a weird boundary violation because while Puri is there to help them, Hilary here is looking for Puri to be her friend and confidant, which really should be outside Puri's job description.

The fact that in the morning Hilary appears to forget that Puri has the morning off for her competition is just kind of icing, and I am not surprised that Puri didn't feel comfortable saying "actually, you said I could take the morning off" in that moment because between the fight with David, the general volatility in the household, and Hilary's kind of manic/overly intimate behavior the night before, I imagine Puri feels like she needs to tread lightly.

I can't imagine watching that episode and thinking Hilary was "kind" to Puri. Why, because she does her makeup and insists Puri puts on one of her designer gowns? Puri didn't want to do that stuff in the first place and Hilary wasn't doing it out of kindness, she was doing it because she was desperate for intimacy and connection and was using the woman in her employment to fill that purpose for the time being. It's understandable Hilary felt that way but that doesn't make it right or good. That whole sequence of events sucked for Puri.

100% thought the same. And her laying in bed whining and crying like a baby while ordering her what to make her for breakfast was just awful after the prior night and agreed upon day of the competition.

She is a very self-centered woman. Even David also pointed this out multiple times. The way she ordered the bartender around too in a nasty tone about the lipstick on the glass--cutting David off completely. Very much entitled

Wut? That glass was disgusting. She asked for another in a perfectly reasonable tone. You wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a man making that request. She didn’t cut David off entirely - she noticed something gross and made a comment - the conversation could easily resume. The amount of Hilary-bashing in this thread is insane. Meanwhile there is the only occasional mention of how totally awful David is. In my book the only reprehensible thing Hilary did was lie about the birth control - that’s bad! But all these interpersonal interactions that posters are blowing out of proportion are really NOT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why so many people are defending Hilary. She was awful in that episode. Granted, she is reeling from discovering her husband's affair and then finding out about the pregnancy (and then finding out it's Mercy). So yes, some grace. But some of how she treats Puri is obviously really gross and I think it's very strange people are defending it:

The worst thing she does is drag Puri into that fight with her husband. That scene was so cringeworthy to me. Hilary *demands* that Puri stay for the fight even though David asks her to leave them and it's obvious Puri feels uncomfortable (who wouldn't?). But then Hilary specifically uses Puri in the fight, telling David that it's the "Hong Kong curse," that men come to Hong Kong and are waited on hand and foot by women like Puri and it ruins their marriages. She literally points at Puri and calls her David's "servant" (I mean, she is a servant but there's a reason they are called helpers instead -- no one wants to be pointed at and called servant). And then Hilary lists things Puri does for David as though this is the reason they are having marital issues. It's really, really gross, and viewing that scene from Puri's point of view made me really dislike Hilary.

The fact that she then basically orders Puri to spend the evening drinking with her because she doesn't want to be alone makes it even worse. It's very clear that this is not something Puri and Hilary have ever done together or that Puri feels comfortable with. It's definitely a weird boundary violation because while Puri is there to help them, Hilary here is looking for Puri to be her friend and confidant, which really should be outside Puri's job description.

The fact that in the morning Hilary appears to forget that Puri has the morning off for her competition is just kind of icing, and I am not surprised that Puri didn't feel comfortable saying "actually, you said I could take the morning off" in that moment because between the fight with David, the general volatility in the household, and Hilary's kind of manic/overly intimate behavior the night before, I imagine Puri feels like she needs to tread lightly.

I can't imagine watching that episode and thinking Hilary was "kind" to Puri. Why, because she does her makeup and insists Puri puts on one of her designer gowns? Puri didn't want to do that stuff in the first place and Hilary wasn't doing it out of kindness, she was doing it because she was desperate for intimacy and connection and was using the woman in her employment to fill that purpose for the time being. It's understandable Hilary felt that way but that doesn't make it right or good. That whole sequence of events sucked for Puri.

100% thought the same. And her laying in bed whining and crying like a baby while ordering her what to make her for breakfast was just awful after the prior night and agreed upon day of the competition.

She is a very self-centered woman. Even David also pointed this out multiple times. The way she ordered the bartender around too in a nasty tone about the lipstick on the glass--cutting David off completely. Very much entitled

Wut? That glass was disgusting. She asked for another in a perfectly reasonable tone. You wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a man making that request. She didn’t cut David off entirely - she noticed something gross and made a comment - the conversation could easily resume. The amount of Hilary-bashing in this thread is insane. Meanwhile there is the only occasional mention of how totally awful David is. In my book the only reprehensible thing Hilary did was lie about the birth control - that’s bad! But all these interpersonal interactions that posters are blowing out of proportion are really NOT.

I agree. I think she is seen as being difficult, when she is just assertive in a normal way. David is a sorry excuse for a man. Fwiw in the book the dynamic was very different: Hilary was more complex and nicer, and David a true piece of shit seen as such by all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why so many people are defending Hilary. She was awful in that episode. Granted, she is reeling from discovering her husband's affair and then finding out about the pregnancy (and then finding out it's Mercy). So yes, some grace. But some of how she treats Puri is obviously really gross and I think it's very strange people are defending it:

The worst thing she does is drag Puri into that fight with her husband. That scene was so cringeworthy to me. Hilary *demands* that Puri stay for the fight even though David asks her to leave them and it's obvious Puri feels uncomfortable (who wouldn't?). But then Hilary specifically uses Puri in the fight, telling David that it's the "Hong Kong curse," that men come to Hong Kong and are waited on hand and foot by women like Puri and it ruins their marriages. She literally points at Puri and calls her David's "servant" (I mean, she is a servant but there's a reason they are called helpers instead -- no one wants to be pointed at and called servant). And then Hilary lists things Puri does for David as though this is the reason they are having marital issues. It's really, really gross, and viewing that scene from Puri's point of view made me really dislike Hilary.

The fact that she then basically orders Puri to spend the evening drinking with her because she doesn't want to be alone makes it even worse. It's very clear that this is not something Puri and Hilary have ever done together or that Puri feels comfortable with. It's definitely a weird boundary violation because while Puri is there to help them, Hilary here is looking for Puri to be her friend and confidant, which really should be outside Puri's job description.

The fact that in the morning Hilary appears to forget that Puri has the morning off for her competition is just kind of icing, and I am not surprised that Puri didn't feel comfortable saying "actually, you said I could take the morning off" in that moment because between the fight with David, the general volatility in the household, and Hilary's kind of manic/overly intimate behavior the night before, I imagine Puri feels like she needs to tread lightly.

I can't imagine watching that episode and thinking Hilary was "kind" to Puri. Why, because she does her makeup and insists Puri puts on one of her designer gowns? Puri didn't want to do that stuff in the first place and Hilary wasn't doing it out of kindness, she was doing it because she was desperate for intimacy and connection and was using the woman in her employment to fill that purpose for the time being. It's understandable Hilary felt that way but that doesn't make it right or good. That whole sequence of events sucked for Puri.

100% thought the same. And her laying in bed whining and crying like a baby while ordering her what to make her for breakfast was just awful after the prior night and agreed upon day of the competition.

She is a very self-centered woman. Even David also pointed this out multiple times. The way she ordered the bartender around too in a nasty tone about the lipstick on the glass--cutting David off completely. Very much entitled

Wut? That glass was disgusting. She asked for another in a perfectly reasonable tone. You wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a man making that request. She didn’t cut David off entirely - she noticed something gross and made a comment - the conversation could easily resume. The amount of Hilary-bashing in this thread is insane. Meanwhile there is the only occasional mention of how totally awful David is. In my book the only reprehensible thing Hilary did was lie about the birth control - that’s bad! But all these interpersonal interactions that posters are blowing out of proportion are really NOT.

I agree. I think she is seen as being difficult, when she is just assertive in a normal way. David is a sorry excuse for a man. Fwiw in the book the dynamic was very different: Hilary was more complex and nicer, and David a true piece of shit seen as such by all.

David is also terrible, it's just the most recent episode didn't feature him as much. But here: he's a whiny little manchild who made a giant mess and now wants someone else to clean it up. Also him taking the espresso machine was petty and stupid. There, you happy?

None of this changes the fact that Hilary literally pointed at Puri and said to David that having "a servant" who makes you coffee and takes care of your needs is the reason their relationship sucks (when in reality their relationship sucks because they are both narcissists who are unwilling to actually care for each other or put their egos aside in order to build a life together). And THEN demanded that Puri keep her company all night.

Gross gross gross. If you want to defend Hilary, defend that. I think some of you identify with her, maybe because you've also had crap husbands or maybe because she's a career woman who is "assertive" (I actually think she's incredibly entitled and often passive-aggressive -- an assertive woman would not lie to her husband about her birth control situation so that she can play both sides of the "should we have kids" debate -- more gross Hilary behavior). You are overlooking concrete, awful behavior from her. The fact that David is also terrible in no way justifies Hilary's behavior. They deserve each other, frankly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They aren't brief slip ups, they are just further examples of how they treat the helpers. This dynamic is seen in every single episode.

Yes, the difference with this episode was that it showed the interactions from the perspective of the helpers. For me, prior to this episode I might have agreed with the people defending Hilary, but after watching this one I can't. I feel differently about Margaret -- her situation is different because Essie has a relationship with her kids and the situation with Gus is impacting everyone in weird ways. I really respect her self-awareness about why she left Essie behind that day and the fact that she felt the need to explain it to Essie and at least try to relieve Essie of any guilt she might be feeling about Gus. She's not perfect but she demonstrates empathy, at least, and I think wants to do the right thing.

Hilary is a narcissist and consistently uses her helper to try and triangulate her messed up relationship with her crappy husband. No thank you. She's not a "villain" but she sucks.

I wanted to add that I think it's dumb Hilary and David even have live-in help. I can see two people with high-powered jobs having a full-time housekeeper who would clean, cook, help with event planning, etc. But if there are not children to tend to in the evenings, I actually think it would just be incredibly weird to have another adult in your home at night and on the weekend when you would normally be alone with your spouse.

Probably it's cheaper to hire a helper like Puri where providing room and board is part of her compensation and that's why people like that would do it. But I'm imagining being at home with my husband on a Tuesday night and having someone else around cleaning up after us and sleeping down the hall from our bedroom... it would be weird. They'd wind up knowing so much about your life (how often you have sex, whether you gossip about the neighbors, what makes you fight, etc.). I think it would be hard to make that relationship feel normal.

Totally agree it’s weird to have Puri live-in for a couple!

Right? Especially in those apartments. It appears the helpers live in small quarters right off the kitchens -- there's just no separation at all. We decided against an au pair for this reason. We would have done it if we'd had a part of the house we could kind of separate off and make a little private suite for them so that there could be real separation on their days and nights off. But we live in a condo and there's just no way to do that. I personally think it would be miserable to live with your employer and have your only ways of getting away be to hole up in a room right next to where they are, or to leave.

Relatedly, the fact that all the helpers go sit on cardboard under an overpass on their day off to play games and hang out, because there's literally nowhere else for them to go, is depressing AF. And we're supposed to be impressed with Hilary because she has provided Puri with a folding chair? The standards are subterranean. This is not a normal way to care for the women who clean your home, cook your meals, bring you coffee, etc. It's gross.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why so many people are defending Hilary. She was awful in that episode. Granted, she is reeling from discovering her husband's affair and then finding out about the pregnancy (and then finding out it's Mercy). So yes, some grace. But some of how she treats Puri is obviously really gross and I think it's very strange people are defending it:

The worst thing she does is drag Puri into that fight with her husband. That scene was so cringeworthy to me. Hilary *demands* that Puri stay for the fight even though David asks her to leave them and it's obvious Puri feels uncomfortable (who wouldn't?). But then Hilary specifically uses Puri in the fight, telling David that it's the "Hong Kong curse," that men come to Hong Kong and are waited on hand and foot by women like Puri and it ruins their marriages. She literally points at Puri and calls her David's "servant" (I mean, she is a servant but there's a reason they are called helpers instead -- no one wants to be pointed at and called servant). And then Hilary lists things Puri does for David as though this is the reason they are having marital issues. It's really, really gross, and viewing that scene from Puri's point of view made me really dislike Hilary.

The fact that she then basically orders Puri to spend the evening drinking with her because she doesn't want to be alone makes it even worse. It's very clear that this is not something Puri and Hilary have ever done together or that Puri feels comfortable with. It's definitely a weird boundary violation because while Puri is there to help them, Hilary here is looking for Puri to be her friend and confidant, which really should be outside Puri's job description.

The fact that in the morning Hilary appears to forget that Puri has the morning off for her competition is just kind of icing, and I am not surprised that Puri didn't feel comfortable saying "actually, you said I could take the morning off" in that moment because between the fight with David, the general volatility in the household, and Hilary's kind of manic/overly intimate behavior the night before, I imagine Puri feels like she needs to tread lightly.

I can't imagine watching that episode and thinking Hilary was "kind" to Puri. Why, because she does her makeup and insists Puri puts on one of her designer gowns? Puri didn't want to do that stuff in the first place and Hilary wasn't doing it out of kindness, she was doing it because she was desperate for intimacy and connection and was using the woman in her employment to fill that purpose for the time being. It's understandable Hilary felt that way but that doesn't make it right or good. That whole sequence of events sucked for Puri.

100% thought the same. And her laying in bed whining and crying like a baby while ordering her what to make her for breakfast was just awful after the prior night and agreed upon day of the competition.

She is a very self-centered woman. Even David also pointed this out multiple times. The way she ordered the bartender around too in a nasty tone about the lipstick on the glass--cutting David off completely. Very much entitled

Wut? That glass was disgusting. She asked for another in a perfectly reasonable tone. You wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a man making that request. She didn’t cut David off entirely - she noticed something gross and made a comment - the conversation could easily resume. The amount of Hilary-bashing in this thread is insane. Meanwhile there is the only occasional mention of how totally awful David is. In my book the only reprehensible thing Hilary did was lie about the birth control - that’s bad! But all these interpersonal interactions that posters are blowing out of proportion are really NOT.

I agree. I think she is seen as being difficult, when she is just assertive in a normal way. David is a sorry excuse for a man. Fwiw in the book the dynamic was very different: Hilary was more complex and nicer, and David a true piece of shit seen as such by all.

David is also terrible, it's just the most recent episode didn't feature him as much. But here: he's a whiny little manchild who made a giant mess and now wants someone else to clean it up. Also him taking the espresso machine was petty and stupid. There, you happy?

None of this changes the fact that Hilary literally pointed at Puri and said to David that having "a servant" who makes you coffee and takes care of your needs is the reason their relationship sucks (when in reality their relationship sucks because they are both narcissists who are unwilling to actually care for each other or put their egos aside in order to build a life together). And THEN demanded that Puri keep her company all night.

Gross gross gross. If you want to defend Hilary, defend that. I think some of you identify with her, maybe because you've also had crap husbands or maybe because she's a career woman who is "assertive" (I actually think she's incredibly entitled and often passive-aggressive -- an assertive woman would not lie to her husband about her birth control situation so that she can play both sides of the "should we have kids" debate -- more gross Hilary behavior). You are overlooking concrete, awful behavior from her. The fact that David is also terrible in no way justifies Hilary's behavior. They deserve each other, frankly.

You know it's a show, right, not real people? Fwiw I am a crunchy DYI middle class mom who never had and never will have any sort of paid help. Stop projecting character analysis onto watchers.

[Anonymous]

I feel like some of the themes of this episode went over a lot of your heads. Why do you think the episode focuses on (1) two young Hong Kong natives involved in the Umbrella Movement, which arose to protest the political oppression of the Chinese government in Hong Kong after the city was turned over by the British, (2) the helpers in two expat households in Hong Kong, and (3) the wife of an expat business man who is openly cheating on her and tells her that she agreed to this arrangement, where he does whatever he wants and she gets to live in his house and spend some of his money.

The episode is about oppression by the powerful of people with less power.

Each of these oppressed entities struggle with what it means to live under these conditions, and what lengths they are willing to go to in order to liberate themselves.

With the Umbrella Movement folks, one of them chooses to literally fight by attending a nighttime protest where it appears he was likely injured and taken into custody, and may even be dead. The other decides to stay home and study, and then meet up with a friend, accepting the political oppression in exchange for some freedom to live a life she obviously enjoys. Though when she gets the call from her friend's mother at the end of the episode, it's not clear this tradeoff will have been worth it -- it is easy to look away from political oppression when it doesn't touch you directly, much harder to do this when it begins to impact you and your loved ones.

With the helpers, they have made a more explicit deal for their oppression, where the transaction (money and lodging in exchange for loyal, dedicated, mostly silent, always uncomplaining, service). We also see how they are mostly more comfortable with the situation, joking about it with each other under the underpass, singing and playing games, taking their paychecks to Western Union to send them to their families, etc. However, we also see a darker side to it when Puri gets dragged into her employers' marital troubles and she winds up spending the evening drinking with and performing emotional labor for Hilary (when she'd probably prefer to be resting in preparation of her competition) and then likely missing the competition altogether due to Hilary's hangover.

We also see how Essie struggles with her emotional involvement with Margaret's family, and how that involvement in some ways conflicts or supersedes her relationship with her own family. We also see how quickly a helper's entire life can be turned upside down when Essie hears Margaret announce the family will be moving back to the US, and for Essie this means not only losing her employment, but also her home and potentially her immigration status. Though the family treats her fairly well and there is real affection between her and the kids for sure, Essie's life is not her own and is completely subject to the whims of her employer.

And finally we watch as the expat wife struggles with her miserable marriage and the tradeoff it entails. Like the helpers (and unlike the Umbrella Movement kids) her deal is more explicit and fairly transactional. We don't get a ton of info about her background as we do with the others, so it's not really clear to what degree she had other, better options in life. Could she have pursued a career? Did she have other options in marriage? We don't really know. At first she seems totally content with her situation, as she explains to Hilary that she can leverage David's cheating for to get "whatever she wants." But then at home, we see that she is not getting what she wants, namely a husband who even pretends to be in a partnership or a loving relationship. We watch her go so far as to begin packing a suitcase to leave, before gettin distracted by the collapsing ceiling. And then she is the only one to make an affirmative choice to stay in her oppressive situation, choosing to patch up the ceiling and her own feelings and resign herself to the agreement she has made.

The episode is drawing parallels between these situations, and that's why it highlights the aspects of the helpers' situations that are oppressive, and the aspects of Hilary's and Margaret's behavior that plays into and in some cases exacerbate the oppression. Other episodes which tell this story more from Margaret's and Hilary's perspectives cast their lives in another light. Neither perspective is "correct" nor is either one a lie. Hilary is a wronged wife married to a cheating alcoholic, who had a bad childhood in an abusive home. She is also a pretty crappy employer who abuses her relationship with her helper in really inappropriate ways. She deserves both empathy and criticism. Like most people.

And I know I didn't touch on the storyline with the pastor and Margaret's husband. There are some parallels there -- the family's grief over Gus is the oppressive force there, and when Margaret's husband confesses that he had hoped it would be Gus's body at the morgue, it's clear that it's because Gus's death would liberate them from the horrible grief of wondering if their son is out in the world, being harmed, while they go on living their lives (it's unimaginable, I just can't). But this is a very different kind of oppression and liberty and I think that while thematically it fits with the series, it didn't belong in this episode.

I actually wish the entire series focused more broadly on all these different characters and the interplay between them, exploring the ways in which power structures alter our relationships to each other and with ourselves, and impact how we seek both security and freedom. But then it would be a very different show, and not really based on the book in the same way. But I would watch it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why so many people are defending Hilary. She was awful in that episode. Granted, she is reeling from discovering her husband's affair and then finding out about the pregnancy (and then finding out it's Mercy). So yes, some grace. But some of how she treats Puri is obviously really gross and I think it's very strange people are defending it:

The worst thing she does is drag Puri into that fight with her husband. That scene was so cringeworthy to me. Hilary *demands* that Puri stay for the fight even though David asks her to leave them and it's obvious Puri feels uncomfortable (who wouldn't?). But then Hilary specifically uses Puri in the fight, telling David that it's the "Hong Kong curse," that men come to Hong Kong and are waited on hand and foot by women like Puri and it ruins their marriages. She literally points at Puri and calls her David's "servant" (I mean, she is a servant but there's a reason they are called helpers instead -- no one wants to be pointed at and called servant). And then Hilary lists things Puri does for David as though this is the reason they are having marital issues. It's really, really gross, and viewing that scene from Puri's point of view made me really dislike Hilary.

The fact that she then basically orders Puri to spend the evening drinking with her because she doesn't want to be alone makes it even worse. It's very clear that this is not something Puri and Hilary have ever done together or that Puri feels comfortable with. It's definitely a weird boundary violation because while Puri is there to help them, Hilary here is looking for Puri to be her friend and confidant, which really should be outside Puri's job description.

The fact that in the morning Hilary appears to forget that Puri has the morning off for her competition is just kind of icing, and I am not surprised that Puri didn't feel comfortable saying "actually, you said I could take the morning off" in that moment because between the fight with David, the general volatility in the household, and Hilary's kind of manic/overly intimate behavior the night before, I imagine Puri feels like she needs to tread lightly.

I can't imagine watching that episode and thinking Hilary was "kind" to Puri. Why, because she does her makeup and insists Puri puts on one of her designer gowns? Puri didn't want to do that stuff in the first place and Hilary wasn't doing it out of kindness, she was doing it because she was desperate for intimacy and connection and was using the woman in her employment to fill that purpose for the time being. It's understandable Hilary felt that way but that doesn't make it right or good. That whole sequence of events sucked for Puri.

100% thought the same. And her laying in bed whining and crying like a baby while ordering her what to make her for breakfast was just awful after the prior night and agreed upon day of the competition.

She is a very self-centered woman. Even David also pointed this out multiple times. The way she ordered the bartender around too in a nasty tone about the lipstick on the glass--cutting David off completely. Very much entitled

Wut? That glass was disgusting. She asked for another in a perfectly reasonable tone. You wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a man making that request. She didn’t cut David off entirely - she noticed something gross and made a comment - the conversation could easily resume. The amount of Hilary-bashing in this thread is insane. Meanwhile there is the only occasional mention of how totally awful David is. In my book the only reprehensible thing Hilary did was lie about the birth control - that’s bad! But all these interpersonal interactions that posters are blowing out of proportion are really NOT.

I agree. I think she is seen as being difficult, when she is just assertive in a normal way. David is a sorry excuse for a man. Fwiw in the book the dynamic was very different: Hilary was more complex and nicer, and David a true piece of shit seen as such by all.

David is also terrible, it's just the most recent episode didn't feature him as much. But here: he's a whiny little manchild who made a giant mess and now wants someone else to clean it up. Also him taking the espresso machine was petty and stupid. There, you happy?

None of this changes the fact that Hilary literally pointed at Puri and said to David that having "a servant" who makes you coffee and takes care of your needs is the reason their relationship sucks (when in reality their relationship sucks because they are both narcissists who are unwilling to actually care for each other or put their egos aside in order to build a life together). And THEN demanded that Puri keep her company all night.

Gross gross gross. If you want to defend Hilary, defend that. I think some of you identify with her, maybe because you've also had crap husbands or maybe because she's a career woman who is "assertive" (I actually think she's incredibly entitled and often passive-aggressive -- an assertive woman would not lie to her husband about her birth control situation so that she can play both sides of the "should we have kids" debate -- more gross Hilary behavior). You are overlooking concrete, awful behavior from her. The fact that David is also terrible in no way justifies Hilary's behavior. They deserve each other, frankly.

You know it's a show, right, not real people? Fwiw I am a crunchy DYI middle class mom who never had and never will have any sort of paid help. Stop projecting character analysis onto watchers.

Don't tell me what to do. If you want to defend Hilary's actions in the episode, do so. I actually feel sorry for you that you can't see her as anything other than the victim of her husband's behavior, or that you think the fact that her husband cheats on her justifies her treating Puri as she does.

[Anonymous]

The poster so heartily defending these women as "misunderstood" and "small slip ups" is the one forgetting its a TV show lol. No one is lobbing personal insults, it's TV characters who were written to say and do these things.

I actually had no issue with Hilary exchanging her glass - that was disgusting. But everything else she's just putting puri inbetween all her issues and indirectly blaming her. Davids horrible behavior is no excuse.

I also dont think Margaret deserves that much grace in her situation. Yes, its horrible, but that doesnt mean you can treat people horribly. I'm glad she was honest with Esse and took ownership of her feelings of jealousy that started down the road of Gus's disappearance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel like some of the themes of this episode went over a lot of your heads. Why do you think the episode focuses on (1) two young Hong Kong natives involved in the Umbrella Movement, which arose to protest the political oppression of the Chinese government in Hong Kong after the city was turned over by the British, (2) the helpers in two expat households in Hong Kong, and (3) the wife of an expat business man who is openly cheating on her and tells her that she agreed to this arrangement, where he does whatever he wants and she gets to live in his house and spend some of his money.

The episode is about oppression by the powerful of people with less power.

Each of these oppressed entities struggle with what it means to live under these conditions, and what lengths they are willing to go to in order to liberate themselves.

With the Umbrella Movement folks, one of them chooses to literally fight by attending a nighttime protest where it appears he was likely injured and taken into custody, and may even be dead. The other decides to stay home and study, and then meet up with a friend, accepting the political oppression in exchange for some freedom to live a life she obviously enjoys. Though when she gets the call from her friend's mother at the end of the episode, it's not clear this tradeoff will have been worth it -- it is easy to look away from political oppression when it doesn't touch you directly, much harder to do this when it begins to impact you and your loved ones.

With the helpers, they have made a more explicit deal for their oppression, where the transaction (money and lodging in exchange for loyal, dedicated, mostly silent, always uncomplaining, service). We also see how they are mostly more comfortable with the situation, joking about it with each other under the underpass, singing and playing games, taking their paychecks to Western Union to send them to their families, etc. However, we also see a darker side to it when Puri gets dragged into her employers' marital troubles and she winds up spending the evening drinking with and performing emotional labor for Hilary (when she'd probably prefer to be resting in preparation of her competition) and then likely missing the competition altogether due to Hilary's hangover.

We also see how Essie struggles with her emotional involvement with Margaret's family, and how that involvement in some ways conflicts or supersedes her relationship with her own family. We also see how quickly a helper's entire life can be turned upside down when Essie hears Margaret announce the family will be moving back to the US, and for Essie this means not only losing her employment, but also her home and potentially her immigration status. Though the family treats her fairly well and there is real affection between her and the kids for sure, Essie's life is not her own and is completely subject to the whims of her employer.

And finally we watch as the expat wife struggles with her miserable marriage and the tradeoff it entails. Like the helpers (and unlike the Umbrella Movement kids) her deal is more explicit and fairly transactional. We don't get a ton of info about her background as we do with the others, so it's not really clear to what degree she had other, better options in life. Could she have pursued a career? Did she have other options in marriage? We don't really know. At first she seems totally content with her situation, as she explains to Hilary that she can leverage David's cheating for to get "whatever she wants." But then at home, we see that she is not getting what she wants, namely a husband who even pretends to be in a partnership or a loving relationship. We watch her go so far as to begin packing a suitcase to leave, before gettin distracted by the collapsing ceiling. And then she is the only one to make an affirmative choice to stay in her oppressive situation, choosing to patch up the ceiling and her own feelings and resign herself to the agreement she has made.

The episode is drawing parallels between these situations, and that's why it highlights the aspects of the helpers' situations that are oppressive, and the aspects of Hilary's and Margaret's behavior that plays into and in some cases exacerbate the oppression. Other episodes which tell this story more from Margaret's and Hilary's perspectives cast their lives in another light. Neither perspective is "correct" nor is either one a lie. Hilary is a wronged wife married to a cheating alcoholic, who had a bad childhood in an abusive home. She is also a pretty crappy employer who abuses her relationship with her helper in really inappropriate ways. She deserves both empathy and criticism. Like most people.

And I know I didn't touch on the storyline with the pastor and Margaret's husband. There are some parallels there -- the family's grief over Gus is the oppressive force there, and when Margaret's husband confesses that he had hoped it would be Gus's body at the morgue, it's clear that it's because Gus's death would liberate them from the horrible grief of wondering if their son is out in the world, being harmed, while they go on living their lives (it's unimaginable, I just can't). But this is a very different kind of oppression and liberty and I think that while thematically it fits with the series, it didn't belong in this episode.

I actually wish the entire series focused more broadly on all these different characters and the interplay between them, exploring the ways in which power structures alter our relationships to each other and with ourselves, and impact how we seek both security and freedom. But then it would be a very different show, and not really based on the book in the same way. But I would watch it.

I think it is very far from the book in that it brings in the umbrella movement and back stories for the helpers much more. To me that latest episodes was the best of the show because of it. The expat stories have been made much less interesting in the show than in the book: they are not developed as people as much, mostly seen in relation to helpers/men. Mercy is a sympathetic figure in the book, Hilary has the adoption story, we get Margaret much more...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why so many people are defending Hilary. She was awful in that episode. Granted, she is reeling from discovering her husband's affair and then finding out about the pregnancy (and then finding out it's Mercy). So yes, some grace. But some of how she treats Puri is obviously really gross and I think it's very strange people are defending it:

The worst thing she does is drag Puri into that fight with her husband. That scene was so cringeworthy to me. Hilary *demands* that Puri stay for the fight even though David asks her to leave them and it's obvious Puri feels uncomfortable (who wouldn't?). But then Hilary specifically uses Puri in the fight, telling David that it's the "Hong Kong curse," that men come to Hong Kong and are waited on hand and foot by women like Puri and it ruins their marriages. She literally points at Puri and calls her David's "servant" (I mean, she is a servant but there's a reason they are called helpers instead -- no one wants to be pointed at and called servant). And then Hilary lists things Puri does for David as though this is the reason they are having marital issues. It's really, really gross, and viewing that scene from Puri's point of view made me really dislike Hilary.

The fact that she then basically orders Puri to spend the evening drinking with her because she doesn't want to be alone makes it even worse. It's very clear that this is not something Puri and Hilary have ever done together or that Puri feels comfortable with. It's definitely a weird boundary violation because while Puri is there to help them, Hilary here is looking for Puri to be her friend and confidant, which really should be outside Puri's job description.

The fact that in the morning Hilary appears to forget that Puri has the morning off for her competition is just kind of icing, and I am not surprised that Puri didn't feel comfortable saying "actually, you said I could take the morning off" in that moment because between the fight with David, the general volatility in the household, and Hilary's kind of manic/overly intimate behavior the night before, I imagine Puri feels like she needs to tread lightly.

I can't imagine watching that episode and thinking Hilary was "kind" to Puri. Why, because she does her makeup and insists Puri puts on one of her designer gowns? Puri didn't want to do that stuff in the first place and Hilary wasn't doing it out of kindness, she was doing it because she was desperate for intimacy and connection and was using the woman in her employment to fill that purpose for the time being. It's understandable Hilary felt that way but that doesn't make it right or good. That whole sequence of events sucked for Puri.

100% thought the same. And her laying in bed whining and crying like a baby while ordering her what to make her for breakfast was just awful after the prior night and agreed upon day of the competition.

She is a very self-centered woman. Even David also pointed this out multiple times. The way she ordered the bartender around too in a nasty tone about the lipstick on the glass--cutting David off completely. Very much entitled

Wut? That glass was disgusting. She asked for another in a perfectly reasonable tone. You wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a man making that request. She didn’t cut David off entirely - she noticed something gross and made a comment - the conversation could easily resume. The amount of Hilary-bashing in this thread is insane. Meanwhile there is the only occasional mention of how totally awful David is. In my book the only reprehensible thing Hilary did was lie about the birth control - that’s bad! But all these interpersonal interactions that posters are blowing out of proportion are really NOT.

I really don't like either of them.

Both are self-entitled whiners. Very self-centered people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why so many people are defending Hilary. She was awful in that episode. Granted, she is reeling from discovering her husband's affair and then finding out about the pregnancy (and then finding out it's Mercy). So yes, some grace. But some of how she treats Puri is obviously really gross and I think it's very strange people are defending it:

The worst thing she does is drag Puri into that fight with her husband. That scene was so cringeworthy to me. Hilary *demands* that Puri stay for the fight even though David asks her to leave them and it's obvious Puri feels uncomfortable (who wouldn't?). But then Hilary specifically uses Puri in the fight, telling David that it's the "Hong Kong curse," that men come to Hong Kong and are waited on hand and foot by women like Puri and it ruins their marriages. She literally points at Puri and calls her David's "servant" (I mean, she is a servant but there's a reason they are called helpers instead -- no one wants to be pointed at and called servant). And then Hilary lists things Puri does for David as though this is the reason they are having marital issues. It's really, really gross, and viewing that scene from Puri's point of view made me really dislike Hilary.

The fact that she then basically orders Puri to spend the evening drinking with her because she doesn't want to be alone makes it even worse. It's very clear that this is not something Puri and Hilary have ever done together or that Puri feels comfortable with. It's definitely a weird boundary violation because while Puri is there to help them, Hilary here is looking for Puri to be her friend and confidant, which really should be outside Puri's job description.

The fact that in the morning Hilary appears to forget that Puri has the morning off for her competition is just kind of icing, and I am not surprised that Puri didn't feel comfortable saying "actually, you said I could take the morning off" in that moment because between the fight with David, the general volatility in the household, and Hilary's kind of manic/overly intimate behavior the night before, I imagine Puri feels like she needs to tread lightly.

I can't imagine watching that episode and thinking Hilary was "kind" to Puri. Why, because she does her makeup and insists Puri puts on one of her designer gowns? Puri didn't want to do that stuff in the first place and Hilary wasn't doing it out of kindness, she was doing it because she was desperate for intimacy and connection and was using the woman in her employment to fill that purpose for the time being. It's understandable Hilary felt that way but that doesn't make it right or good. That whole sequence of events sucked for Puri.

100% thought the same. And her laying in bed whining and crying like a baby while ordering her what to make her for breakfast was just awful after the prior night and agreed upon day of the competition.

She is a very self-centered woman. Even David also pointed this out multiple times. The way she ordered the bartender around too in a nasty tone about the lipstick on the glass--cutting David off completely. Very much entitled

Wut? That glass was disgusting. She asked for another in a perfectly reasonable tone. You wouldn’t bat an eyelash at a man making that request. She didn’t cut David off entirely - she noticed something gross and made a comment - the conversation could easily resume. The amount of Hilary-bashing in this thread is insane. Meanwhile there is the only occasional mention of how totally awful David is. In my book the only reprehensible thing Hilary did was lie about the birth control - that’s bad! But all these interpersonal interactions that posters are blowing out of proportion are really NOT.

Her tone and mannerisms were very nasty. There's being assertive and then talking to wait staff, bartenders like a beatch. There is a difference. In fact, a huge red flag for me is how people address waiters in a restaurant. True to form, the obnoxious people I know that order and demand and talk down to wait staff are scum outside of the restaurant too.

Excuse me, may I please get a new glass? NOT: yelling/snapping: there is lipstick on my glass and it is not mine!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The poster so heartily defending these women as "misunderstood" and "small slip ups" is the one forgetting its a TV show lol. No one is lobbing personal insults, it's TV characters who were written to say and do these things.

I actually had no issue with Hilary exchanging her glass - that was disgusting. But everything else she's just putting puri inbetween all her issues and indirectly blaming her. Davids horrible behavior is no excuse.

I also dont think Margaret deserves that much grace in her situation. Yes, its horrible, but that doesnt mean you can treat people horribly. I'm glad she was honest with Esse and took ownership of her feelings of jealousy that started down the road of Gus's disappearance.

Margaret was only honest with Essie when she was simultaneously asking for a huge favor. What is perhaps most annoying about both Hilary and Margaret's behavior is they think they are caring employers but actually they are quite selfish and thoughtless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like some of the themes of this episode went over a lot of your heads. Why do you think the episode focuses on (1) two young Hong Kong natives involved in the Umbrella Movement, which arose to protest the political oppression of the Chinese government in Hong Kong after the city was turned over by the British, (2) the helpers in two expat households in Hong Kong, and (3) the wife of an expat business man who is openly cheating on her and tells her that she agreed to this arrangement, where he does whatever he wants and she gets to live in his house and spend some of his money.

The episode is about oppression by the powerful of people with less power.

Each of these oppressed entities struggle with what it means to live under these conditions, and what lengths they are willing to go to in order to liberate themselves.

With the Umbrella Movement folks, one of them chooses to literally fight by attending a nighttime protest where it appears he was likely injured and taken into custody, and may even be dead. The other decides to stay home and study, and then meet up with a friend, accepting the political oppression in exchange for some freedom to live a life she obviously enjoys. Though when she gets the call from her friend's mother at the end of the episode, it's not clear this tradeoff will have been worth it -- it is easy to look away from political oppression when it doesn't touch you directly, much harder to do this when it begins to impact you and your loved ones.

With the helpers, they have made a more explicit deal for their oppression, where the transaction (money and lodging in exchange for loyal, dedicated, mostly silent, always uncomplaining, service). We also see how they are mostly more comfortable with the situation, joking about it with each other under the underpass, singing and playing games, taking their paychecks to Western Union to send them to their families, etc. However, we also see a darker side to it when Puri gets dragged into her employers' marital troubles and she winds up spending the evening drinking with and performing emotional labor for Hilary (when she'd probably prefer to be resting in preparation of her competition) and then likely missing the competition altogether due to Hilary's hangover.

We also see how Essie struggles with her emotional involvement with Margaret's family, and how that involvement in some ways conflicts or supersedes her relationship with her own family. We also see how quickly a helper's entire life can be turned upside down when Essie hears Margaret announce the family will be moving back to the US, and for Essie this means not only losing her employment, but also her home and potentially her immigration status. Though the family treats her fairly well and there is real affection between her and the kids for sure, Essie's life is not her own and is completely subject to the whims of her employer.

And finally we watch as the expat wife struggles with her miserable marriage and the tradeoff it entails. Like the helpers (and unlike the Umbrella Movement kids) her deal is more explicit and fairly transactional. We don't get a ton of info about her background as we do with the others, so it's not really clear to what degree she had other, better options in life. Could she have pursued a career? Did she have other options in marriage? We don't really know. At first she seems totally content with her situation, as she explains to Hilary that she can leverage David's cheating for to get "whatever she wants." But then at home, we see that she is not getting what she wants, namely a husband who even pretends to be in a partnership or a loving relationship. We watch her go so far as to begin packing a suitcase to leave, before gettin distracted by the collapsing ceiling. And then she is the only one to make an affirmative choice to stay in her oppressive situation, choosing to patch up the ceiling and her own feelings and resign herself to the agreement she has made.

The episode is drawing parallels between these situations, and that's why it highlights the aspects of the helpers' situations that are oppressive, and the aspects of Hilary's and Margaret's behavior that plays into and in some cases exacerbate the oppression. Other episodes which tell this story more from Margaret's and Hilary's perspectives cast their lives in another light. Neither perspective is "correct" nor is either one a lie. Hilary is a wronged wife married to a cheating alcoholic, who had a bad childhood in an abusive home. She is also a pretty crappy employer who abuses her relationship with her helper in really inappropriate ways. She deserves both empathy and criticism. Like most people.

And I know I didn't touch on the storyline with the pastor and Margaret's husband. There are some parallels there -- the family's grief over Gus is the oppressive force there, and when Margaret's husband confesses that he had hoped it would be Gus's body at the morgue, it's clear that it's because Gus's death would liberate them from the horrible grief of wondering if their son is out in the world, being harmed, while they go on living their lives (it's unimaginable, I just can't). But this is a very different kind of oppression and liberty and I think that while thematically it fits with the series, it didn't belong in this episode.

I actually wish the entire series focused more broadly on all these different characters and the interplay between them, exploring the ways in which power structures alter our relationships to each other and with ourselves, and impact how we seek both security and freedom. But then it would be a very different show, and not really based on the book in the same way. But I would watch it.

I think it is very far from the book in that it brings in the umbrella movement and back stories for the helpers much more. To me that latest episodes was the best of the show because of it. The expat stories have been made much less interesting in the show than in the book: they are not developed as people as much, mostly seen in relation to helpers/men. Mercy is a sympathetic figure in the book, Hilary has the adoption story, we get Margaret much more...

Some backstory -- when they went to Hong Kong to film, there was criticism because Amazon secured some exemptions to the Covid restrictions in place at the time in order to film, and especially in a city with ongoing political strife with a very pronounced socioeconomic hierarchy, people complained that the production was enriching Amazon and the shows's wealthy stars/producers (namely Kidman) at the expense of safety for working class people in Hong Kong. There were also allegations that Amazon and the Chinese government had made an agreement to avoid criticism of China in the show as a condition of them being able to film, especially during Covid restrictions.

So I think this episode is, to some degree, a response to that criticism, an effort by Wang and Amazon to say hey, we're doing this responsibly and we have creative freedom. Though admittedly, the treatment of the Umbrella Movement in the episode actually kind of backs up the allegation that Amazon was restricted from making any direct criticism of China or the HK Chief Executive, because unless you know the background on the movement and what they were/are protesting, I don't think you'd find out from that episode. I don't think they ever directly discuss what the movement's demands were/are (primarily, they want to be able to elect their own leadership instead of having it appointed by the Chinese government). I think it really weakens that part of the story that they never established the stakes. But for me the plot lines following Puri and Essie made up for that.

It's also the episode that feels the most like Wang's previous work to me. I'd love to see her do a short film or another series set in Hong Kong without the constraints of the source material here.

[Anonymous]

I thought it was interesting the show took the time to show Hilary's backstory with her mother. While it in no way excuses her behavior, it does help explain that she is dealing with a fair bit of generational trauma.