Petition: Later MCPS school start times

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

I’ve worked in high schools with 7:30am start times and 9am start times. 1st period always contains sleepy kids. Pushing start times back won’t change a thing.

Perhaps students shouldn’t stay up on their phones until 2am. I can’t tell you how many emails I get sent at 1:30am and 3am.

FFS. Stop. An hour and a half would undoubtedly make a difference, even if not ALL of the students would be bright eyed and bushy tailed.

We all know you just don’t want to stay later.

I’m the PP. You’re so wrong. I would LOVE to stay later. That would be ideal.

But what’s the point? It won’t make a difference. I speak from actual experience, as a parent AND a teacher.

I speak from actual experience as a parent and a scientist. Your blanket “it won’t make a difference” is worth absolutely nothing.

It’s just, like, your opinion, man.

Well, scientist, explain it to us then. How will later times DIRECTLY and CLEARLY translate to more sleep for high school students?

Because, scientist, high schoolers have pesky habits like staying up late texting, watching movies, cramming for tests. Some high schoolers will be attending more 6am practices and rehearsals since there will be less time after school for these events.

So please explain it to those of us on this thread who raise or teach teenagers. How will a later start time guarantee more sleep?

The late-start advocates don’t have an answer to your common sense questions. They’re empty vessels.

They are doing those studies to prove their theory, and will find justifications of why as thats how they make money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

I’ve worked in high schools with 7:30am start times and 9am start times. 1st period always contains sleepy kids. Pushing start times back won’t change a thing.

Perhaps students shouldn’t stay up on their phones until 2am. I can’t tell you how many emails I get sent at 1:30am and 3am.

FFS. Stop. An hour and a half would undoubtedly make a difference, even if not ALL of the students would be bright eyed and bushy tailed.

We all know you just don’t want to stay later.

Your proposed or supposed benefit to teens is not in fact one. This teacher who has worked in school districts with 9 am start times is telling you this based on their firsthand experience and you’re dismissing it because it counters your predetermined stance?

Give it a rest. Or make a better argument because the one you’re advocating doesn’t hold water for anyone who knows how adolescents really behave.

Hilarious! Let’s make decisions for ALL students because Ms. Blatherdoo says SHE knows better than all those idiot sleep researchers, and the know-nothing pediatricians, and all of that pesky scientific research, because when she taught a class at 9:00 some kids were still sleepy!!

I suspect Ms. Blatherdoo is a science teacher based on the appalling scientific illiteracy on display in this thread.

Tell me what your determined threshold is for percentage of students who will get more sleep based on the schedule change.

If we make this switch and only 20% of teens, is still worth it?

Can we guarantee that with the schedule change that at least 50% of teens will get more sleep? If so, how?

We’re willing to hear your argument, but you’re gonna have to present a fully fleshed out one. Not this half-baked crap you’re trotting out.

[Anonymous]

15 good reasons why early start is good:
https://helpfulprofessor.com/reasons-why-school-should-start-earlier/

"Cuts transportation costs
Gets students to school faster
Has benefits for work schedules
Lets districts pool resources more effectively
Allows more free time
Creates academic advantages
Is safer for travel
Allows for afterschool jobs
Establishes a routine
Prompts a healthy lifestyle
There are no clear benefits of starting later
Students don’t see their parents as much
Allows time for after-school sports
Negates the need for daylight savings time
Allows teachers to do more with their day"

Easy to google and find reasons to justify why your belief is right.

[Anonymous]

Sorry—don’t have the time to wade through 19 pages of comments, but california passed a law that schools had to start after 830a. Any chance an approach like that would work here (pass law at state level, then schools have to come up with solutions)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry—don’t have the time to wade through 19 pages of comments, but california passed a law that schools had to start after 830a. Any chance an approach like that would work here (pass law at state level, then schools have to come up with solutions)

Read this: https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/info/belltimesworkgroup/Rpt2013BellTimesWorkGrpReport.pdf

[Anonymous]

It’s like machines who do not actually have the biological experience of being human are the ones pushing back on this.

The brain does not go to sleep earlier in adolescence because you “push back bedtime.” That is not how neurology works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s like machines who do not actually have the biological experience of being human are the ones pushing back on this.

The brain does not go to sleep earlier in adolescence because you “push back bedtime.” That is not how neurology works.

It’s just some crotchety old crank who neither knows nor cares about science and thinks dictating a bedtime will overcome basic physiological needs. They think someone is making money off of studying the sleep patterns and needs of teenagers. (Who would be funding these studies if that were the case? Manufacturers of school buses?) According to their black and white thinking, once the school board has examined an issue and made a decision, the issue can NEVER be revisited, and it drives them absolutely bonkers that people are continuing to raise the issue.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Sure, if you're willing to give MCPS enough money to pay for twice as manybuses and drivers.

many school systems have HS start last so the adolescent brain, with its shifted circadian rhythm, starts later, too.

And many kids are fine with the earlier start time. Here’s an idea. Enforce bedtime. Be a parent.

I’m not sure why you can’t grasp this, but their circadian rhythm prevents them from falling asleep early. They can start laying in bed at whatever time they want, but they won’t necessarily sleep. You can’t overcome biology by ordering someone who isn’t sleepy to sleep.

Stop making excuses. If they are tired they will sleep. Or, they can nap when they get home. You should like a lazy parent.

I’m sorry you don’t comprehend the situation.

Comprehend what? Your kids are spoiled and refuse to go to bed and you prefer to not parent and find ways to help the. By making up nonsense and punish the rest of or kid who are in activities, working, etc which yours are not so no excuse why they cannot go to bed. Be a parent and enforce bedtime.

Not the PP, but how exactly does this punish other kids? All get to sleep later and no one would be cutting activities. You do realize other places start school later their kids are fine.

First off, they may not sleep later. And, how do you propose it works. Sports, for example outside of MCPS all share facilities and there is only so much time/space. As it is the HS kids swim at 3 PM (and it's a mad rush to get them to the pool when school does not let out till 3:30 PM). Mine is in multiple activities outside and inside school and there would be no way to fit it all in without them going to bed much later, which then defeats the purpose. They aren't getting more sleep.

Y'all don't read. Read the science. Oh I forgot, that would be too much parenting on your part.

As a parent, I enforce bedtime. See how that works. So, my kid goes to bed an hour later as everything is pushed back and only sleeps in an extra 30 mintures. They lose sleep.

That would make your child an outlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

Please tell us how you can fit in activities, homework, shower and dinner with a later start time?

DP but all of that stuff you’re talking about falls under “parenting decisions”. The school should not give a crap about whether Larla has time for violin, a five course dinner, and an hour long bubble bath every night. The fact is that the schools start too early for teens and it is unhealthy. They should change the start time for the health of the kids, and the rest of the time management is up you, mom.

To answer the question:

3:30 school out
4-6 activity
6:30 home arrival
7-7:40 dinner
8 -10. homework
10:30-11 - shower
Good night by 11:30
Rise and Shine -7:30am-8:15 (school and commute dependent)

And that even includes a bunch of time for conversations, commutes, and screwing around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s like machines who do not actually have the biological experience of being human are the ones pushing back on this.

The brain does not go to sleep earlier in adolescence because you “push back bedtime.” That is not how neurology works.

It’s just some crotchety old crank who neither knows nor cares about science and thinks dictating a bedtime will overcome basic physiological needs. They think someone is making money off of studying the sleep patterns and needs of teenagers. (Who would be funding these studies if that were the case? Manufacturers of school buses?) According to their black and white thinking, once the school board has examined an issue and made a decision, the issue can NEVER be revisited, and it drives them absolutely bonkers that people are continuing to raise the issue.

DP.
It isn’t about basic physiological needs. I think we can all agree teenagers need more sleep. It’s just that some of us see the other variables. Changing start time isn’t going to magically get teenagers to sleep more. It simply isn’t.

When a school I used to work in changed start times, the first thing that happened was that after school activities became before school activities. Students were still over-scheduled and exhausted.

It’s quite simplistic to merely consider the need for sleep. There are far too many variables at play here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is absolutely a way to have later start times and fit in after school activities! -signed a Pediatrician

+100.

- signed HS teacher. I hate first period because kids are half asleep or come in late. Period 2 onwards is so much better

Please tell us how you can fit in activities, homework, shower and dinner with a later start time?

The day is the same length??

Most states have shifted to a later high school start time due to the clear science data that is now available. Somehow they all figure it out but it is impossible in MCPS. We must be a low IQ county or something.

There are so many other problems that need solving. So many others. I don’t think this is the issue that makes MoCo a low IQ county.

I looked and didn’t see supporting data online for your claim that “most” states have shifted to later times. Can you cite?

I did see plenty of research that says more sleep will benefit high schoolers, and I absolutely agree. But later start times does not = more sleep for teenagers. What’s to stop students from staying up even later, or waking up earlier to complete what they didn’t have done the night before? There’s no clear correlation here.

Every time this pointed out to late start advocates, they either ignore this point or insist it’s not an issue.

Because study after study shows kids don't stay up equally later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Sure, if you're willing to give MCPS enough money to pay for twice as manybuses and drivers.

many school systems have HS start last so the adolescent brain, with its shifted circadian rhythm, starts later, too.

And many kids are fine with the earlier start time. Here’s an idea. Enforce bedtime. Be a parent.

Scientific literature teems with support for later start times:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28670711/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36864696/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27855730/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29157638/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35593065/

"Conclusions: There is converging evidence that later SSTs (school start times) are associated with better overall developmental outcomes, longer sleep duration, and less negative mood. More research needs to consider student and school characteristics to obtain reliable estimates related to possible differences by sex, race, school size, percent free/reduced lunch, and percent minority."

But feel free to ignore inconvenient science.

Keep ignoring science, folks. Keep finding excuses. It's our kids that suffer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:15 good reasons why early start is good:
https://helpfulprofessor.com/reasons-why-school-should-start-earlier/

"Cuts transportation costs
—That varies by district, but is true for MCPS.

Gets students to school faster
—How does it shorten commute times? Morning rush hour is already underway by the early start time.

Has benefits for work schedules
—Yes, for students, that’s true

Lets districts pool resources more effectively
—May be true. Please explain.

Allows more free time
—Yes, but at the expense of sleep. Making kids be awake during a portion of the window when they’d have the easiest time sleeping, and forcing them to try to sleep when their bodies are fighting sleep is not an ideal way to give them more free time.

Creates academic advantages
—Vague to the point of meaninglessness. Please explain.

Is safer for travel
—Please explain

Allows for afterschool jobs
—Yes, this is true

Establishes a routine
—Any start time establishes a routine.

Prompts a healthy lifestyle
—Vague to the point of meaninglessness. Any science to support whatever this means?

There are no clear benefits of starting later
—Studies already posted in this thread disprove this assertion.

Students don’t see their parents as much
—Clearly, you meant the opposite, that students would see their parents more. However, parents don't all work the same hours, so no single start time will universally increase or decrease family time.

Allows time for after-school sports
—Yes, this is true

Negates the need for daylight savings time
—Huh? We have both an early start time and DST.

Allows teachers to do more with their day"
—There are 24 hours in a day regardless of start time and the instructional day would be the same length. Time isn't something you gain or lose by adjusting the start time.

Easy to google and find reasons to justify why your belief is right.

—Even your own link undercuts some of these arguments by saying they’re not always applicable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Why are you here then. We don't care what private does, this is MCPS.

Fun fact, I have one of each. On the same sports team.

Transportation arguments are valid, but there are solutions.

My argument is that getting out of school after 3 is not a huge scheduling problem for the remainder of the day, and big public systems other places have figured it out (CA).

For all of those saying “how is there time”…
*public school kid has 3-330 extra time with which they typically sit on phone
Practice 4-630
Dinner 645-715
715-1015 - homework, leisure, hygiene
1030 bed (average) - this is late for one of mine and early for the other who is just wired as a night owl

Private school kid gets up to 10h sleep, while public could get 7-8h (not terrible if it’s 11-630, but this is a kid who has trouble sleeping before midnight and needs 8+h)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the down county consortium should test this approach and use a later start time at one of the DCC high schools. The density of ES is high enough here that you might even be able to free up the right number of busses by give people a choice between a late vs early ES. This would let MCPS test the idea without forcing anyone into it. If enough people want it, you can grow the number of schools doing it and if it causes issues or no one actually wants to live with what a later hs start time means, they can discontinue it.

How about HS 9:00a-3:45p. Is that really too late to start practice for athletic teens?

Our swim starts at 3:45, so yes, slight issue. And, there are morning practices as well. Our school swim practices start either early in the AM or 3 PM. Not including sports and other activities for our kids. Plus homework. That 45 minutes after school is a big deal. And, many parents need older kids to watch younger kids after school. How would that work when there are not enough after school spots as it is?

My kid goes to (private) HS 845-315, it works just fine. Other school systems and communities have figured this out.

Sure, if you're willing to give MCPS enough money to pay for twice as manybuses and drivers.

many school systems have HS start last so the adolescent brain, with its shifted circadian rhythm, starts later, too.

And many kids are fine with the earlier start time. Here’s an idea. Enforce bedtime. Be a parent.

I’m not sure why you can’t grasp this, but their circadian rhythm prevents them from falling asleep early. They can start laying in bed at whatever time they want, but they won’t necessarily sleep. You can’t overcome biology by ordering someone who isn’t sleepy to sleep.

Stop making excuses. If they are tired they will sleep. Or, they can nap when they get home. You should like a lazy parent.

I’m sorry you don’t comprehend the situation.

Comprehend what? Your kids are spoiled and refuse to go to bed and you prefer to not parent and find ways to help the. By making up nonsense and punish the rest of or kid who are in activities, working, etc which yours are not so no excuse why they cannot go to bed. Be a parent and enforce bedtime.

Not the PP, but how exactly does this punish other kids? All get to sleep later and no one would be cutting activities. You do realize other places start school later their kids are fine.

First off, they may not sleep later. And, how do you propose it works. Sports, for example outside of MCPS all share facilities and there is only so much time/space. As it is the HS kids swim at 3 PM (and it's a mad rush to get them to the pool when school does not let out till 3:30 PM). Mine is in multiple activities outside and inside school and there would be no way to fit it all in without them going to bed much later, which then defeats the purpose. They aren't getting more sleep.

Y'all don't read. Read the science. Oh I forgot, that would be too much parenting on your part.

As a parent, I enforce bedtime. See how that works. So, my kid goes to bed an hour later as everything is pushed back and only sleeps in an extra 30 mintures. They lose sleep.

That would make your child an outlier.

What do you think will happen if things are pushed back an hour to accommodate you not wanting to parent your kids? Sports, after school activities, work, etc. all get pushed back an hour, so kids get home and hour later, then homework, dinner, shower, and then bed, all an hour later? So, instead of a kid going to bed at 11, they will now go to bed at 12. That's not healthy.