Replicating ATS success — what are exact differences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

You’re saying that a couple extra days spent at the Louvre is equally as disruptive as someone who only shows up to school 50% of the time?

Because it’s not. And the people going on educational trips are probably doing academic enrichment outside of school hours anyway. Those kids know how to read and most likely have good test scores.

Not saying people should skip school, but it isn’t the same.

[Anonymous]

Are there public data on how many students applied to ATS in last year or year before ? Also, is data on current (or last year’s) student enrollment numbers for each APS elementary school available ?

If so, it would be kind to post the URL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ATS should mandate 2/3rds of slots for lower socioeconomic and minority students, similar to how Montessori does their prek. I have no problem with ATS existing or being a home for attentive parents. But it should favor disadvantaged every step of the way. And, please don't tell me its FRL rate is similar or better than other schools, that is truly irrelevant. Its FRL needs to be twice the worst neighborhood school, and its student demographics needs to flip the stats of U.S. public. Then you know it's really serving those who need it in our society.

This is an interesting comment, but I think that APS just needs to offer more schools that use the ATS model. This is a public school district. It’s unfair to offer a product like ATS- the literal best public elementary school in Virginia- when it benefits so few of the taxpaying population. I would be fine with them setting aside percentage for students receiving FRL, but there’s no getting around the fact that we need more ATS slots for everyone.

All of the options are built and supported by the fact that there is demand for 125%, maybe 175%, of capacity, but no more. As a public system, you don't want to build an option building that then depends on you struggling to fill it every year. As others have noted here, there are huge swaths of APS system that do NOT want rigid ATS for their kids. And if your answer is,fine, don't build buildings, just implement inside current schoools, then I strongly suggest you look into the lessons learned from the failures of "schools win schools" in APS. Long story short, nothing makes a local school more like a civil war battleground than when you ty to divide up its classrooms between very different pedagogies. See Montessori experience at Drew.

But demand for ATS is almost 200% of current capacity. Way more than demand for other options.

This is a fact. look at the waitlists. You could fill a second APS and I think you could fill quite a few more HBs. That said, why is HB such a short school if it was a new build? Why didn't APS maximize that space. Wait, I know why. WE HAVE A HORRIBLE SCHOOL BOARD AND THEY ALL MUST GO.

Its true that part of the reason HB works is because all the adults know all the kids, and the kids know that they have a lot of freedom but at the same time have to act to a reasonable standard. It wouldn't work with twice as many kids, or if there were tons of kids there that didn't really want to be there. Not every teacher wants to be in a school where the students can wander around freely and address them directly, and not every teenager can handle being in a building where they can wander around freely and address adults directly--especially if they haven't been given increasing amounts of independence and responsibility all along, and seen it modeled from all of their older peers.

I had kids at both Gunston and HB and I can tell you -- you can't just take parts of the HB model and plunk it down somewhere else, or double it in size. I assume the same is true with ATS. Or at least, you won't automatically get the same results. Not to say there aren't aspects that could be replicated other places, or lessons to be learned, it's just not something you can easily do 1:1.

100 agree with this take on HB. I also have a kid at HB and one in a different APS MS. You just can't replicate the HB model in a much larger school. Whatever - it's a moot point - the site in Rosslyn can't handle trailers.

I am definitely in favor of more programs of a smaller size though since parents seem to want that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ATS should mandate 2/3rds of slots for lower socioeconomic and minority students, similar to how Montessori does their prek. I have no problem with ATS existing or being a home for attentive parents. But it should favor disadvantaged every step of the way. And, please don't tell me its FRL rate is similar or better than other schools, that is truly irrelevant. Its FRL needs to be twice the worst neighborhood school, and its student demographics needs to flip the stats of U.S. public. Then you know it's really serving those who need it in our society.

This is an interesting comment, but I think that APS just needs to offer more schools that use the ATS model. This is a public school district. It’s unfair to offer a product like ATS- the literal best public elementary school in Virginia- when it benefits so few of the taxpaying population. I would be fine with them setting aside percentage for students receiving FRL, but there’s no getting around the fact that we need more ATS slots for everyone.

All of the options are built and supported by the fact that there is demand for 125%, maybe 175%, of capacity, but no more. As a public system, you don't want to build an option building that then depends on you struggling to fill it every year. As others have noted here, there are huge swaths of APS system that do NOT want rigid ATS for their kids. And if your answer is,fine, don't build buildings, just implement inside current schoools, then I strongly suggest you look into the lessons learned from the failures of "schools win schools" in APS. Long story short, nothing makes a local school more like a civil war battleground than when you ty to divide up its classrooms between very different pedagogies. See Montessori experience at Drew.

But demand for ATS is almost 200% of current capacity. Way more than demand for other options.

This is a fact. look at the waitlists. You could fill a second APS and I think you could fill quite a few more HBs. That said, why is HB such a short school if it was a new build? Why didn't APS maximize that space. Wait, I know why. WE HAVE A HORRIBLE SCHOOL BOARD AND THEY ALL MUST GO.

Its true that part of the reason HB works is because all the adults know all the kids, and the kids know that they have a lot of freedom but at the same time have to act to a reasonable standard. It wouldn't work with twice as many kids, or if there were tons of kids there that didn't really want to be there. Not every teacher wants to be in a school where the students can wander around freely and address them directly, and not every teenager can handle being in a building where they can wander around freely and address adults directly--especially if they haven't been given increasing amounts of independence and responsibility all along, and seen it modeled from all of their older peers.

I had kids at both Gunston and HB and I can tell you -- you can't just take parts of the HB model and plunk it down somewhere else, or double it in size. I assume the same is true with ATS. Or at least, you won't automatically get the same results. Not to say there aren't aspects that could be replicated other places, or lessons to be learned, it's just not something you can easily do 1:1.

100 agree with this take on HB. I also have a kid at HB and one in a different APS MS. You just can't replicate the HB model in a much larger school. Whatever - it's a moot point - the site in Rosslyn can't handle trailers.

I am definitely in favor of more programs of a smaller size though since parents seem to want that.

And the rest of us would like to deal in reality. If a program like HB only works because it's small, then we should have gotten rid of it and put a bigger choice school on the Wilson site. A 7-12 program for 1300 kids would still be a lot smaller than the current MS and HS programs, and for kids who are satisfied with team sports limited to frisbee, it would be a godsend.

I'm not interested in replicating ATS until someone shows that it has benefits that last past 5th grade. If you want to define success as high SOLs in 5th, you're free to do so, and good luck getting into a school that will deliver. But the rest of us want something with bigger benefits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ATS should mandate 2/3rds of slots for lower socioeconomic and minority students, similar to how Montessori does their prek. I have no problem with ATS existing or being a home for attentive parents. But it should favor disadvantaged every step of the way. And, please don't tell me its FRL rate is similar or better than other schools, that is truly irrelevant. Its FRL needs to be twice the worst neighborhood school, and its student demographics needs to flip the stats of U.S. public. Then you know it's really serving those who need it in our society.

This is an interesting comment, but I think that APS just needs to offer more schools that use the ATS model. This is a public school district. It’s unfair to offer a product like ATS- the literal best public elementary school in Virginia- when it benefits so few of the taxpaying population. I would be fine with them setting aside percentage for students receiving FRL, but there’s no getting around the fact that we need more ATS slots for everyone.

All of the options are built and supported by the fact that there is demand for 125%, maybe 175%, of capacity, but no more. As a public system, you don't want to build an option building that then depends on you struggling to fill it every year. As others have noted here, there are huge swaths of APS system that do NOT want rigid ATS for their kids. And if your answer is,fine, don't build buildings, just implement inside current schoools, then I strongly suggest you look into the lessons learned from the failures of "schools win schools" in APS. Long story short, nothing makes a local school more like a civil war battleground than when you ty to divide up its classrooms between very different pedagogies. See Montessori experience at Drew.

But demand for ATS is almost 200% of current capacity. Way more than demand for other options.

This is a fact. look at the waitlists. You could fill a second APS and I think you could fill quite a few more HBs. That said, why is HB such a short school if it was a new build? Why didn't APS maximize that space. Wait, I know why. WE HAVE A HORRIBLE SCHOOL BOARD AND THEY ALL MUST GO.

Its true that part of the reason HB works is because all the adults know all the kids, and the kids know that they have a lot of freedom but at the same time have to act to a reasonable standard. It wouldn't work with twice as many kids, or if there were tons of kids there that didn't really want to be there. Not every teacher wants to be in a school where the students can wander around freely and address them directly, and not every teenager can handle being in a building where they can wander around freely and address adults directly--especially if they haven't been given increasing amounts of independence and responsibility all along, and seen it modeled from all of their older peers.

I had kids at both Gunston and HB and I can tell you -- you can't just take parts of the HB model and plunk it down somewhere else, or double it in size. I assume the same is true with ATS. Or at least, you won't automatically get the same results. Not to say there aren't aspects that could be replicated other places, or lessons to be learned, it's just not something you can easily do 1:1.

100 agree with this take on HB. I also have a kid at HB and one in a different APS MS. You just can't replicate the HB model in a much larger school. Whatever - it's a moot point - the site in Rosslyn can't handle trailers.

I am definitely in favor of more programs of a smaller size though since parents seem to want that.

And the rest of us would like to deal in reality. If a program like HB only works because it's small, then we should have gotten rid of it and put a bigger choice school on the Wilson site. A 7-12 program for 1300 kids would still be a lot smaller than the current MS and HS programs, and for kids who are satisfied with team sports limited to frisbee, it would be a godsend.

I'm not interested in replicating ATS until someone shows that it has benefits that last past 5th grade. If you want to define success as high SOLs in 5th, you're free to do so, and good luck getting into a school that will deliver. But the rest of us want something with bigger benefits.

They considered that and the cost of building than 6 stories were not just incrementally higher, they were geometrically higher. (That's universal--it's why you see so many apartment buildings that height, too.)

[Anonymous]

Sorry guys. I was referring to the building's size, not the student population. Could have put 300 middle school immersion people there. I didn't realize that it was vastly more expensive. I just know that APS owns very little space.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

+1

Are kids really reaching “chronic absenteeism” levels of missed days due to vacation? Come on. You’re smarter than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

You’re saying that a couple extra days spent at the Louvre is equally as disruptive as someone who only shows up to school 50% of the time?

Because it’s not. And the people going on educational trips are probably doing academic enrichment outside of school hours anyway. Those kids know how to read and most likely have good test scores.

Not saying people should skip school, but it isn’t the same.

DP here. Student absences are disruptive when they result in the teacher adjusting instruction to catch the absent students up. They are also disruptive when the kids are part of groups for group work. It is extra time a teacher may need to devote to communicating with the student/parents and scheduling make-up work/quizzes. I know it's APS policy that teachers are not required to provide a make-up for unexcused absences; but they still want the kids to learn the material and not fall behind.

It's not about the disruption to the absent student; it's the impact on the ones who are being responsible and show up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

You’re saying that a couple extra days spent at the Louvre is equally as disruptive as someone who only shows up to school 50% of the time?

Because it’s not. And the people going on educational trips are probably doing academic enrichment outside of school hours anyway. Those kids know how to read and most likely have good test scores.

Not saying people should skip school, but it isn’t the same.

DP here. Student absences are disruptive when they result in the teacher adjusting instruction to catch the absent students up. They are also disruptive when the kids are part of groups for group work. It is extra time a teacher may need to devote to communicating with the student/parents and scheduling make-up work/quizzes. I know it's APS policy that teachers are not required to provide a make-up for unexcused absences; but they still want the kids to learn the material and not fall behind.

It's not about the disruption to the absent student; it's the impact on the ones who are being responsible and show up.

Missing a few days isn’t throwing anyone significantly off. Otherwise, minor colds would have a catastrophic impact on our schools.

We’re talking about kids who are chronically absent (especially those who are “checked out” even when they’re present.)

I’m not saying vacation absences don’t have an impact. I’m saying they’re small potatoes compared to chronic absenteeism.

And you know that.

[Anonymous]

so another way ATS is different is that they track kids down. Now, I realize that's not possible when there are 300 kids needing to be tracked down. At ATS, during covid, there was this kid in my child's class who didn't log on. Because of various circumstances, I figured out all the ways ATS was working to keep that child engaged. It was impressive. But that's just one data point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

You’re saying that a couple extra days spent at the Louvre is equally as disruptive as someone who only shows up to school 50% of the time?

Because it’s not. And the people going on educational trips are probably doing academic enrichment outside of school hours anyway. Those kids know how to read and most likely have good test scores.

Not saying people should skip school, but it isn’t the same.

DP here. Student absences are disruptive when they result in the teacher adjusting instruction to catch the absent students up. They are also disruptive when the kids are part of groups for group work. It is extra time a teacher may need to devote to communicating with the student/parents and scheduling make-up work/quizzes. I know it's APS policy that teachers are not required to provide a make-up for unexcused absences; but they still want the kids to learn the material and not fall behind.

It's not about the disruption to the absent student; it's the impact on the ones who are being responsible and show up.

Missing a few days isn’t throwing anyone significantly off. Otherwise, minor colds would have a catastrophic impact on our schools.

We’re talking about kids who are chronically absent (especially those who are “checked out” even when they’re present.)

I’m not saying vacation absences don’t have an impact. I’m saying they’re small potatoes compared to chronic absenteeism.

And you know that.

For the individual students, sure.
But when there are frequent multiple absences from the class, it impacts the class and not just those who miss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ATS should mandate 2/3rds of slots for lower socioeconomic and minority students, similar to how Montessori does their prek. I have no problem with ATS existing or being a home for attentive parents. But it should favor disadvantaged every step of the way. And, please don't tell me its FRL rate is similar or better than other schools, that is truly irrelevant. Its FRL needs to be twice the worst neighborhood school, and its student demographics needs to flip the stats of U.S. public. Then you know it's really serving those who need it in our society.

This is an interesting comment, but I think that APS just needs to offer more schools that use the ATS model. This is a public school district. It’s unfair to offer a product like ATS- the literal best public elementary school in Virginia- when it benefits so few of the taxpaying population. I would be fine with them setting aside percentage for students receiving FRL, but there’s no getting around the fact that we need more ATS slots for everyone.

All of the options are built and supported by the fact that there is demand for 125%, maybe 175%, of capacity, but no more. As a public system, you don't want to build an option building that then depends on you struggling to fill it every year. As others have noted here, there are huge swaths of APS system that do NOT want rigid ATS for their kids. And if your answer is,fine, don't build buildings, just implement inside current schoools, then I strongly suggest you look into the lessons learned from the failures of "schools win schools" in APS. Long story short, nothing makes a local school more like a civil war battleground than when you ty to divide up its classrooms between very different pedagogies. See Montessori experience at Drew.

But demand for ATS is almost 200% of current capacity. Way more than demand for other options.

This is a fact. look at the waitlists. You could fill a second APS and I think you could fill quite a few more HBs. That said, why is HB such a short school if it was a new build? Why didn't APS maximize that space. Wait, I know why. WE HAVE A HORRIBLE SCHOOL BOARD AND THEY ALL MUST GO.

Its true that part of the reason HB works is because all the adults know all the kids, and the kids know that they have a lot of freedom but at the same time have to act to a reasonable standard. It wouldn't work with twice as many kids, or if there were tons of kids there that didn't really want to be there. Not every teacher wants to be in a school where the students can wander around freely and address them directly, and not every teenager can handle being in a building where they can wander around freely and address adults directly--especially if they haven't been given increasing amounts of independence and responsibility all along, and seen it modeled from all of their older peers.

I had kids at both Gunston and HB and I can tell you -- you can't just take parts of the HB model and plunk it down somewhere else, or double it in size. I assume the same is true with ATS. Or at least, you won't automatically get the same results. Not to say there aren't aspects that could be replicated other places, or lessons to be learned, it's just not something you can easily do 1:1.

100 agree with this take on HB. I also have a kid at HB and one in a different APS MS. You just can't replicate the HB model in a much larger school. Whatever - it's a moot point - the site in Rosslyn can't handle trailers.

I am definitely in favor of more programs of a smaller size though since parents seem to want that.

And the rest of us would like to deal in reality. If a program like HB only works because it's small, then we should have gotten rid of it and put a bigger choice school on the Wilson site. A 7-12 program for 1300 kids would still be a lot smaller than the current MS and HS programs, and for kids who are satisfied with team sports limited to frisbee, it would be a godsend.

I'm not interested in replicating ATS until someone shows that it has benefits that last past 5th grade. If you want to define success as high SOLs in 5th, you're free to do so, and good luck getting into a school that will deliver. But the rest of us want something with bigger benefits.

They considered that and the cost of building than 6 stories were not just incrementally higher, they were geometrically higher. (That's universal--it's why you see so many apartment buildings that height, too.)

I'm not sure where you're getting that. Community presentations showed that the least expensive way to get 1300 more seats was to build them on Wilson. But 22207 parents and HB parents created a unified whine that stopped the SB from doing so

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know someone asked why ATS is different from other option schools and someone else mentioned absenteeism. For reference. ATS has 1.7% of kids with chronic absenteeism. Claremont is 18.83% and Campbell is 19.94%.

Everyone can discuss this to death. But it is the makeup of the school. THAT is the difference. ATS doesn't have some magic solution. They haven't solved education. They have a very specific self selecting group of families who highly value education. And that is super wonderful.

It is just hard to fight against nearly 20% of the school being chronically absent. The population of the school is just different.

Also, this got me looking at absentee rates at schools.

Drew 23.66%
Randolph 21.76%
Barcroft 15.5%

Lets Compare to N. Arlington schools

Nottingham .51%
Taylor 4.02%
Cardinal 2.14%

Chronic Absenteeism is probably the real problem we need to solve to help close the achievement gap.

Yet ATS is doing better than all the North Arlington schools you mentioned with the same level of chronic absenteeism. It’s not just the parent population. My friend’s two kids came from a poor performing South Arlington school and were not at grade level for anything. The parents are super involved in their kids education but the kids were falling behind because the school sucks. The youngest started last year. ATS caught her up to grade level. She came middle of first grade and could barely read. Now the eldest is at ATS. Being caught up well. The parents were super involved but as immigrants they didn’t know how to teach their kids the mechanics of reading. Also the classroom environment wasn’t safe (literally - kids were throwing stuff all the time) and both their kids were subject to bullying. Once they switched to ATS everything changed. Kids were doing better academically, socially and emotionally.

Came here to say something similar. The families and type of kids that attend ATS may contribute to the success, but there is also something different about their programing. They certainly haven't discovered a special magic solution or solved education, but, they have figured out a method that is clearly seeing results.

We received slots to ATS in 2nd and 3rd grade for our two DCs. Our kids as well as us were able to see very stark differences in the day-to-day classroom learning. Their understanding and desire to continue learning drastically changed too.

BINGO!!
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.

**unless the family culture is one that doesn’t prioritize school. Then kids don’t turn in their homework/misbehave/don’t show up to school.

I repeat:
When kids are appropriately challenged, they become more engaged.
When kids are insufficiently challenged, they know the adults have lower expectations of them.
If kids are misbehaving, they're either not appropriately challenged and engaged; or they have behavioral issues that need medical attention.
If kids are not turning in their homework or showing up to school, they have more significant problems that require medical/social attention.

OR (and this is probably many of them), they have sh!tty parents. No amount of teacher engagement can change a family culture of IDGAF.

People love to hate on parents . Are there really that many IDGAF parents in Arlington ? Because I haven’t met any yet.

LOL. You must not go out much. Sometimes seems like I’m the only one who cares.

I know a fair number of parents who take their kids out of school for vacations, but they're the exception.

I also know a fair number of parents who think they care more about education than others, but what they care about is test scores.

I think the vacation scenario is a bit nuanced. Do I know people who’ve taken time off for frivolous reasons? Yes. Do I also know people who’ve taken time off for international travel, where they’ve gone to museum after museum, which has very positive effects when it comes to education? Yes.

But even so, taking a few days off to go to the beach isn’t as harmful as significant truancy (I bet some of these kids are just chilling in front of a TV).

Don’t be obtuse. You know what I’m talking about.

It doesn't matter if it's a positive experience, do that during school vacations. It's disruptive to students and teachers to pull your kids out for frivolous reasons.

You’re saying that a couple extra days spent at the Louvre is equally as disruptive as someone who only shows up to school 50% of the time?

Because it’s not. And the people going on educational trips are probably doing academic enrichment outside of school hours anyway. Those kids know how to read and most likely have good test scores.

Not saying people should skip school, but it isn’t the same.

DP here. Student absences are disruptive when they result in the teacher adjusting instruction to catch the absent students up. They are also disruptive when the kids are part of groups for group work. It is extra time a teacher may need to devote to communicating with the student/parents and scheduling make-up work/quizzes. I know it's APS policy that teachers are not required to provide a make-up for unexcused absences; but they still want the kids to learn the material and not fall behind.

It's not about the disruption to the absent student; it's the impact on the ones who are being responsible and show up.

Missing a few days isn’t throwing anyone significantly off. Otherwise, minor colds would have a catastrophic impact on our schools.

We’re talking about kids who are chronically absent (especially those who are “checked out” even when they’re present.)

I’m not saying vacation absences don’t have an impact. I’m saying they’re small potatoes compared to chronic absenteeism.

And you know that.

For the individual students, sure.
But when there are frequent multiple absences from the class, it impacts the class and not just those who miss.

Then teachers need to stop doing so much group work. (Or relying on high-achieving students to teach the others.)