Inside the great teacher resignation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Agree with PP about PTSD. I’m a PP who posted about my DD having her own safety plan because she was the target of a child’s explosions. When the child was in control, they were friends. But when her friend had an episode, my DD had to separate herself by putting furniture between them and then run across the hall to the other 1st grade teacher’s room until they could clear the other girl from the classroom and the hallway.

I knew and respected the parents of the other girl so I went along with the safety plan nonsense for way too long until the girl was removed to go to a special emotional support program in February of last year. But I’ll never forgive myself for the time before that, especially before I knew about the explosions in the classroom. For the entire year including the time after that girl left, my DD cried nightly at bedtime because she was dreading the next day. She was behind on reading and her math was full of random numbers and erasings. She was put in remedial groups for both. I wrote it all off as post-pandemic adjustment, like a fool. Sometimes my DD falls asleep and wakes up and says she’s scared about school the next day, and we have to talk through how it’s safe this year until she falls back asleep. This fall they accelerated her in math and reading- it turns out she is quite good at both but couldn’t concentrate long enough to do either last year because she was always on alert for the next evacuation.

Why would you keep her in that classroom or school if she was not safe?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

The intelligent public’s support for teachers isn’t “in the gutter.” The shriekers’ and the endless whiners’ is. Oh well.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

You are acting like this is a threat to teachers. Who are you honestly hurting but kids?

It is like in a divorce. If the parents are fighting over kids, custody or whatever in the end the KIDS are the ones who pay the price.

The only thing you are really doing is hurting kids. Especially those who already start with fewer advantages.

The teachers can and will find other work. The kids only get one shot at this and 2 years are already gone. You can take shots and get mad and kick and cry, or you can say “That sucked, but let’s get back to work. We have even more to do. How can I help?”

No, I was trying to say public schools are threatened. If you care about protecting public schools then you should be looking for a path that not only meets the needs of teachers, but also students and their families. Otherwise more and more of those families are going to turn to private schools, which we're already seeing happening. That will only increase political support for private school vouchers. And yes, it's going to be the disadvantaged kids that lose out, not really the DCUM crowd.

DCUM kids are generally in the top 5% of the nation economically. Most people who have left for private school already have. It's not just disadvantaged kids who will and are suffering, it's middle income and even upper middle income kids are too or at the very least, won't be able to afford even the cheapest of private schools.

Exactly. And those middle-income families rely on schools. That doesn't make them bad parents. The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families.

What? That is the weirdest take on this I have ever seen. Are you suggesting schools closed just to “attack” families? Attack means there was malicious intent. Wow. That is NUTS!

Read it again. The comments made by the teachers unions, and some teachers themselves, included attacks on working parents. There have been examples in this thread, although I tend to think they’re from SAHMs rather than teachers.

Nope, I’m one of the responders you would incorrectly characterize that way and we are a decidedly not wealthy, dual full-time working family. Try again.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

You are acting like this is a threat to teachers. Who are you honestly hurting but kids?

It is like in a divorce. If the parents are fighting over kids, custody or whatever in the end the KIDS are the ones who pay the price.

The only thing you are really doing is hurting kids. Especially those who already start with fewer advantages.

The teachers can and will find other work. The kids only get one shot at this and 2 years are already gone. You can take shots and get mad and kick and cry, or you can say “That sucked, but let’s get back to work. We have even more to do. How can I help?”

No, I was trying to say public schools are threatened. If you care about protecting public schools then you should be looking for a path that not only meets the needs of teachers, but also students and their families. Otherwise more and more of those families are going to turn to private schools, which we're already seeing happening. That will only increase political support for private school vouchers. And yes, it's going to be the disadvantaged kids that lose out, not really the DCUM crowd.

DCUM kids are generally in the top 5% of the nation economically. Most people who have left for private school already have. It's not just disadvantaged kids who will and are suffering, it's middle income and even upper middle income kids are too or at the very least, won't be able to afford even the cheapest of private schools.

Exactly. And those middle-income families rely on schools. That doesn't make them bad parents. The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families.

What? That is the weirdest take on this I have ever seen. Are you suggesting schools closed just to “attack” families? Attack means there was malicious intent. Wow. That is NUTS!

Read it again. The comments made by the teachers unions, and some teachers themselves, included attacks on working parents. There have been examples in this thread, although I tend to think they’re from SAHMs rather than teachers.

Ok clearly I have a comprehension fail. The PP said that the 18 month school closure was an attack on families. They in my mind were NOT talking about this thread. Saying the school closures were premeditated and an attack on families by teachers or unions is t crazy. Please reinterpret that post for me.

Read it again: "The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families."

The narrative used by teachers' unions and their supporters in their comments justifying the continued closures was the attack, not the closures themselves.

The "narrative" was not a narrative. For the 20-21 school year the CDC was still saying 6 feet of distance in public schools. I believe the FCPS superintendent went on CNN that spring to publicly say that the CDC needed to change the policy in order to let kids in school full time. Here is a quote from Feb 2021:

"Fairfax County Public Schools Superintendent Scott Brabrand says that is the most this large suburban Washington, DC, school district can do while still following US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines for safe school re-opening. The county is currently in the red zone."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/politics/fairfax-county-virginia-schools-reopen-covid/index.html

There physically wasn't enough space to social distance with all children attending school.

Now if you want to see that as an attack, go ahead.

The CDC guidelines that were the result of closed-door meetings with teachers unions? Yes, I remember those.

Stop lying or provide proof. Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

You are acting like this is a threat to teachers. Who are you honestly hurting but kids?

It is like in a divorce. If the parents are fighting over kids, custody or whatever in the end the KIDS are the ones who pay the price.

The only thing you are really doing is hurting kids. Especially those who already start with fewer advantages.

The teachers can and will find other work. The kids only get one shot at this and 2 years are already gone. You can take shots and get mad and kick and cry, or you can say “That sucked, but let’s get back to work. We have even more to do. How can I help?”

No, I was trying to say public schools are threatened. If you care about protecting public schools then you should be looking for a path that not only meets the needs of teachers, but also students and their families. Otherwise more and more of those families are going to turn to private schools, which we're already seeing happening. That will only increase political support for private school vouchers. And yes, it's going to be the disadvantaged kids that lose out, not really the DCUM crowd.

DCUM kids are generally in the top 5% of the nation economically. Most people who have left for private school already have. It's not just disadvantaged kids who will and are suffering, it's middle income and even upper middle income kids are too or at the very least, won't be able to afford even the cheapest of private schools.

Exactly. And those middle-income families rely on schools. That doesn't make them bad parents. The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families.

What? That is the weirdest take on this I have ever seen. Are you suggesting schools closed just to “attack” families? Attack means there was malicious intent. Wow. That is NUTS!

Read it again. The comments made by the teachers unions, and some teachers themselves, included attacks on working parents. There have been examples in this thread, although I tend to think they’re from SAHMs rather than teachers.

Ok clearly I have a comprehension fail. The PP said that the 18 month school closure was an attack on families. They in my mind were NOT talking about this thread. Saying the school closures were premeditated and an attack on families by teachers or unions is t crazy. Please reinterpret that post for me.

Read it again: "The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families."

The narrative used by teachers' unions and their supporters in their comments justifying the continued closures was the attack, not the closures themselves.

The "narrative" was not a narrative. For the 20-21 school year the CDC was still saying 6 feet of distance in public schools. I believe the FCPS superintendent went on CNN that spring to publicly say that the CDC needed to change the policy in order to let kids in school full time. Here is a quote from Feb 2021:

"Fairfax County Public Schools Superintendent Scott Brabrand says that is the most this large suburban Washington, DC, school district can do while still following US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines for safe school re-opening. The county is currently in the red zone."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/politics/fairfax-county-virginia-schools-reopen-covid/index.html

There physically wasn't enough space to social distance with all children attending school.

Now if you want to see that as an attack, go ahead.

The CDC guidelines that were the result of closed-door meetings with teachers unions? Yes, I remember those.

Link please? Funny that doctors offices did this too. In fact many still are AND are requiring masks.

Never mind I found it. In the New York post and Fox News and other conservative outlets.

Enjoy your vouchers and private schools!

Are you suggesting that you think the New York Post and Fox News fabricated the emails between the unions and the CDC leading up to the guidance?

Funny that you're suggesting that other news media didn't report on that. I'm pretty sure they did, but it does suggest some level of "filtering" either by the news media you read and/or by the news articles you choose to read.

Have a great day!

How interesting that you chose to comment on the media outlets that wrote the articles but not the substance of those articles.

Because “the articles” are from trash sources and are therefore irrelevant. I’m astonished you need this explained to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anywhere in the South, Texas, and Southwest is basically terrible for teachers right now. Sadly many teachers even vote against their own interests in those areas due political reasons. Parents throw fits for various political reasons. Teachers are basically terrified, have no rights (non-union or weak union), and extremely poor salaries. Things are so jerrymandered that there is no hope that elections would change anything. When Oklahoma teachers strikes 4 years ago they got a pay raise but since then nothing and got cuts to benefits.
Kids are verbally, emotionally, professional and physically assaulting teachers left and right without consequence.

Go check the teachers Reddit page to see post after post of teacher pain.

Teachers need to put their own interests (salary, benefits, early retirement) first, before our kids or the best interests of the community.

Of course they need to put the interests of themselves and their families first, just as you put the interests of yourself and your family first. To suggest otherwise is patently asinine.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I taught in self-contained rooms for ED kids for years and they do work. Kids are taught at their pace, learn to use self-control strategies, and are not in trouble all day. These kids that are so often in heightened states are damaging their brains, and the kids that have to witness it all day ate experiencing secondary trauma. A self-contained program is not for life. It’s a reset, time to heal and get in control. The ones in my county have incredibly low enrollment, because the bar is so high to move them now. It’s not juvenile detention. It’s meeting their needs, building success, and then determining scaffolded returns to gen ed.

Yes, but that’s not what’s being proposed in this thread. They want to move all of the kids that are significantly disruptive in gen ed classrooms into the self-contained classrooms. And then they only want to move them back out after they’ve been able to demonstrate self control in the self-contained setting, where we all know they’re not likely to provide the necessary and appropriate resources.

How do you think that would go?

Are you a teacher? If not, do you understand what you're expecting from classroom teachers? It is too much. That's why they're quitting. I know a young teacher whose nose was broken by a student 6 weeks before her wedding. Most teachers do not have the training and do not want to deal with those types of behaviors day in and day out.

As a parent of a child with special needs, few would understand as well as I. My kid is younger, but I can certainly imagine what it would be like to scale him up by 2x or 3x.

I would certainly agree that teachers need help with these students. But you’re not asking for help. You’re trying to hide those students away so you can forget about them.

No, I'm not. I posted above that I've tried to help students with significant special needs for years. I was a special ed teacher and later a school psychologist. I'm just stating the obvious -- that classroom teachers are leaving because they can't cope with the large number of students with significant behaviors, and many school districts don't have the resources to provide 1:1 paras. Another factor -- I would imagine that very few DCUM posters are encouraging their children to become teachers. We have a problem that can't be ignored and will be even worse when the current teachers aged 55+ retire.

You didn’t say what your plan is, except to apparently build more overpasses for the kids you’d like to leave behind to live under. Though, I imagine you’re at an age now where that doesn’t really matter to you.

Not true. I still work part-time. You're distorting my words, not sure if intentionally or just not understanding. My plan would be to hire more teachers and paras, with smaller classes; however, I don't control the funding and have no influence over the number of teachers leaving the profession.

Ok, but if you look further up in the thread, the proposal was to fast-track kids into self-contained classrooms if they disrupt gen-ed classrooms, and make them earn their way back. This would obviously grossly increase the number of kids in those programs. And with no hope of fully staffing those programs, those kids wouldn't have a realistic path to get out of there.

The idea that more self-contained classrooms is the answer here is ridiculous. Yes, there will always be some set of students where that really is the best environment for them. But it will always be a small number, and it needs to be a small number because we'd never be able to recruit enough staff to handle large numbers effectively. 1:1 aides obviously have their own challenges, but for those that actually need it, its going to be cheaper and easier for the school district to provide than it would be to provide them with a self-contained program of similar educational quality.

The problem is, school districts are taking the easy way out, choosing to spend their money on lawyers to fight parents, rather than actually staffing and improving their programs.

A one in one aide who is not allowed to touch a kid who is out of control may as well not be there. Frankly these kids are given free reign to run around the school while available staff “block the exits” they are out of control because no teacher is going to touch your throwing spitting biting kicking and hitting child when you will file a lawsuit if we do. So your kid runs around destroying the school until they “burn themselves out.” I don’t think you truly understand the manpower involved when a kid starts running around the school. If we could just take the child to a sensory or break room to calm down it would be helpful but no one is allowed to touch them to get them there so they run wild. We are too scared of lawsuits to touch your kid. It is mentally and physically exhausting to go to work everyday knowing a kid may abuse you or the children you are supposed to protect at any point during the day and your only recourse is to move out of the way and or take the blows.

How does moving those kids out of your class solve those problems for everyone but you?

I’m not the PP, but all of the other kids and their parents, as well as the teachers, will be much happier if they’re able to learn in a safe and relatively calm environment at school. Educational outcomes world improve dramatically for 95% of students (or at least stop declining) and teachers wouldn’t be leaving the profession so rapidly either. How is that not obvious?

And the kids, teachers, and paras in the segregated classrooms? Screw ‘em?

Well the kids in that classroom are all disruptive so yeah, they will just need to deal with the disruptions from the other kids. As for the teachers and staff, of course they should receive different training to keep them safe, a higher salary for the worse conditions, and/or lowered expectations for reporting and other admin since they’ll need to spend more time on classroom management. Also of course these rooms would have a higher staff/student ratio with shared aides.

And 95% of kids (and teachers!) will no longer be sacrificed and we might be able to save what’s left of our public education system.

Why not use the substantial resources you’re referencing to actually support students and teachers in the LRE?

It’s because you know the schools wouldn’t properly staff the special education programs. It’s pretty clear from the tone of your post that you’re not interesting in helping those kids- you’re just trying to get rid of them.

The problem is that people like you make an assumption that LRE automatically means Gen Ed. It does not.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

You are acting like this is a threat to teachers. Who are you honestly hurting but kids?

It is like in a divorce. If the parents are fighting over kids, custody or whatever in the end the KIDS are the ones who pay the price.

The only thing you are really doing is hurting kids. Especially those who already start with fewer advantages.

The teachers can and will find other work. The kids only get one shot at this and 2 years are already gone. You can take shots and get mad and kick and cry, or you can say “That sucked, but let’s get back to work. We have even more to do. How can I help?”

No, I was trying to say public schools are threatened. If you care about protecting public schools then you should be looking for a path that not only meets the needs of teachers, but also students and their families. Otherwise more and more of those families are going to turn to private schools, which we're already seeing happening. That will only increase political support for private school vouchers. And yes, it's going to be the disadvantaged kids that lose out, not really the DCUM crowd.

DCUM kids are generally in the top 5% of the nation economically. Most people who have left for private school already have. It's not just disadvantaged kids who will and are suffering, it's middle income and even upper middle income kids are too or at the very least, won't be able to afford even the cheapest of private schools.

Exactly. And those middle-income families rely on schools. That doesn't make them bad parents. The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families.

What? That is the weirdest take on this I have ever seen. Are you suggesting schools closed just to “attack” families? Attack means there was malicious intent. Wow. That is NUTS!

Read it again. The comments made by the teachers unions, and some teachers themselves, included attacks on working parents. There have been examples in this thread, although I tend to think they’re from SAHMs rather than teachers.

Ok clearly I have a comprehension fail. The PP said that the 18 month school closure was an attack on families. They in my mind were NOT talking about this thread. Saying the school closures were premeditated and an attack on families by teachers or unions is t crazy. Please reinterpret that post for me.

Read it again: "The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families."

The narrative used by teachers' unions and their supporters in their comments justifying the continued closures was the attack, not the closures themselves.

The "narrative" was not a narrative. For the 20-21 school year the CDC was still saying 6 feet of distance in public schools. I believe the FCPS superintendent went on CNN that spring to publicly say that the CDC needed to change the policy in order to let kids in school full time. Here is a quote from Feb 2021:

"Fairfax County Public Schools Superintendent Scott Brabrand says that is the most this large suburban Washington, DC, school district can do while still following US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines for safe school re-opening. The county is currently in the red zone."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/politics/fairfax-county-virginia-schools-reopen-covid/index.html

There physically wasn't enough space to social distance with all children attending school.

Now if you want to see that as an attack, go ahead.

The CDC guidelines that were the result of closed-door meetings with teachers unions? Yes, I remember those.

Stop lying or provide proof. Thanks in advance.

Do you know what a primary source is? Did you even bother to look at the FOIA response emails?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

You are acting like this is a threat to teachers. Who are you honestly hurting but kids?

It is like in a divorce. If the parents are fighting over kids, custody or whatever in the end the KIDS are the ones who pay the price.

The only thing you are really doing is hurting kids. Especially those who already start with fewer advantages.

The teachers can and will find other work. The kids only get one shot at this and 2 years are already gone. You can take shots and get mad and kick and cry, or you can say “That sucked, but let’s get back to work. We have even more to do. How can I help?”

No, I was trying to say public schools are threatened. If you care about protecting public schools then you should be looking for a path that not only meets the needs of teachers, but also students and their families. Otherwise more and more of those families are going to turn to private schools, which we're already seeing happening. That will only increase political support for private school vouchers. And yes, it's going to be the disadvantaged kids that lose out, not really the DCUM crowd.

DCUM kids are generally in the top 5% of the nation economically. Most people who have left for private school already have. It's not just disadvantaged kids who will and are suffering, it's middle income and even upper middle income kids are too or at the very least, won't be able to afford even the cheapest of private schools.

Exactly. And those middle-income families rely on schools. That doesn't make them bad parents. The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families.

What? That is the weirdest take on this I have ever seen. Are you suggesting schools closed just to “attack” families? Attack means there was malicious intent. Wow. That is NUTS!

Read it again. The comments made by the teachers unions, and some teachers themselves, included attacks on working parents. There have been examples in this thread, although I tend to think they’re from SAHMs rather than teachers.

Ok clearly I have a comprehension fail. The PP said that the 18 month school closure was an attack on families. They in my mind were NOT talking about this thread. Saying the school closures were premeditated and an attack on families by teachers or unions is t crazy. Please reinterpret that post for me.

Read it again: "The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families."

The narrative used by teachers' unions and their supporters in their comments justifying the continued closures was the attack, not the closures themselves.

The "narrative" was not a narrative. For the 20-21 school year the CDC was still saying 6 feet of distance in public schools. I believe the FCPS superintendent went on CNN that spring to publicly say that the CDC needed to change the policy in order to let kids in school full time. Here is a quote from Feb 2021:

"Fairfax County Public Schools Superintendent Scott Brabrand says that is the most this large suburban Washington, DC, school district can do while still following US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines for safe school re-opening. The county is currently in the red zone."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/politics/fairfax-county-virginia-schools-reopen-covid/index.html

There physically wasn't enough space to social distance with all children attending school.

Now if you want to see that as an attack, go ahead.

The CDC guidelines that were the result of closed-door meetings with teachers unions? Yes, I remember those.

Stop lying or provide proof. Thanks in advance.

Do you know what a primary source is? Did you even bother to look at the FOIA response emails?

Stop deflecting and provide valid proof. Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

You are acting like this is a threat to teachers. Who are you honestly hurting but kids?

It is like in a divorce. If the parents are fighting over kids, custody or whatever in the end the KIDS are the ones who pay the price.

The only thing you are really doing is hurting kids. Especially those who already start with fewer advantages.

The teachers can and will find other work. The kids only get one shot at this and 2 years are already gone. You can take shots and get mad and kick and cry, or you can say “That sucked, but let’s get back to work. We have even more to do. How can I help?”

No, I was trying to say public schools are threatened. If you care about protecting public schools then you should be looking for a path that not only meets the needs of teachers, but also students and their families. Otherwise more and more of those families are going to turn to private schools, which we're already seeing happening. That will only increase political support for private school vouchers. And yes, it's going to be the disadvantaged kids that lose out, not really the DCUM crowd.

DCUM kids are generally in the top 5% of the nation economically. Most people who have left for private school already have. It's not just disadvantaged kids who will and are suffering, it's middle income and even upper middle income kids are too or at the very least, won't be able to afford even the cheapest of private schools.

Exactly. And those middle-income families rely on schools. That doesn't make them bad parents. The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families.

What? That is the weirdest take on this I have ever seen. Are you suggesting schools closed just to “attack” families? Attack means there was malicious intent. Wow. That is NUTS!

Read it again. The comments made by the teachers unions, and some teachers themselves, included attacks on working parents. There have been examples in this thread, although I tend to think they’re from SAHMs rather than teachers.

Nope, I’m one of the responders you would incorrectly characterize that way and we are a decidedly not wealthy, dual full-time working family. Try again.

Interesting that you seem to acknowledge your own mean-spirited attacks on parents.

I’d be astonished if you had a full-time job outside the home. Your Etsy store, Mary Kay scheme, or "freelancing" gigs don't count.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Speaking of temper tantrums, how does being so angry and irate at teachers 2 years later help your child learn this year?

Is your vitriol helping children get help or is it making the situation worse?

Or are only teachers expected to put your child above their family/yourself?

Is that how you’d characterize the situation of the tens of millions of people that worked through the pandemic in public-facing and/or crowded conditions? Including the people that made sure you had food, utilities, medical services/supplies, public safety services, and countless other essential (and nonessential) goods and services?

No it is how I characterize this thread and people who are still rehashing this argument after 2 years.

There are different issues now. Are they related? Sure
If you want to help and not just spew anger then help. If not your anger is just anger and only you can change that.

Schools and teachers can help by acknowledging their past mistakes and promising to act differently in the future.

Ok we are so very very sorry. The pandemic was mishandled by school boards, the president who threw out the CDC pandemic playbook, superintendents and the NIH. Teachers taught these people and are therefore responsible for their actions. It is true, even teachers themselves made errors of judgement and wanted to work from home. In the next global emergency we will act differently. This new, improved and better plan will be based upon the needs of the pandemic of 2020, not whatever future situation the world will be facing.

Thank you for demonstrating my point. It’s a problem that teachers haven’t acknowledged the harm they did to kids through their actions. It’s not even clear many of them fully understand that harm or the role they played.

You are not getting apologies. You are not getting reparations. You are not getting future promises.

GROW UP AND MOVE ON. Or keep holding your breath and impotently stamping your feet like a toddler. Your choice.

Ok. Then watch public support for public schools and teachers continue to be in the gutter.

You are acting like this is a threat to teachers. Who are you honestly hurting but kids?

It is like in a divorce. If the parents are fighting over kids, custody or whatever in the end the KIDS are the ones who pay the price.

The only thing you are really doing is hurting kids. Especially those who already start with fewer advantages.

The teachers can and will find other work. The kids only get one shot at this and 2 years are already gone. You can take shots and get mad and kick and cry, or you can say “That sucked, but let’s get back to work. We have even more to do. How can I help?”

No, I was trying to say public schools are threatened. If you care about protecting public schools then you should be looking for a path that not only meets the needs of teachers, but also students and their families. Otherwise more and more of those families are going to turn to private schools, which we're already seeing happening. That will only increase political support for private school vouchers. And yes, it's going to be the disadvantaged kids that lose out, not really the DCUM crowd.

DCUM kids are generally in the top 5% of the nation economically. Most people who have left for private school already have. It's not just disadvantaged kids who will and are suffering, it's middle income and even upper middle income kids are too or at the very least, won't be able to afford even the cheapest of private schools.

Exactly. And those middle-income families rely on schools. That doesn't make them bad parents. The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families.

What? That is the weirdest take on this I have ever seen. Are you suggesting schools closed just to “attack” families? Attack means there was malicious intent. Wow. That is NUTS!

Read it again. The comments made by the teachers unions, and some teachers themselves, included attacks on working parents. There have been examples in this thread, although I tend to think they’re from SAHMs rather than teachers.

Ok clearly I have a comprehension fail. The PP said that the 18 month school closure was an attack on families. They in my mind were NOT talking about this thread. Saying the school closures were premeditated and an attack on families by teachers or unions is t crazy. Please reinterpret that post for me.

Read it again: "The narrative that "school isn't child care" and that parents should have had backup plans for an 18-month school closure was a ridiculous attack on working families."

The narrative used by teachers' unions and their supporters in their comments justifying the continued closures was the attack, not the closures themselves.

The "narrative" was not a narrative. For the 20-21 school year the CDC was still saying 6 feet of distance in public schools. I believe the FCPS superintendent went on CNN that spring to publicly say that the CDC needed to change the policy in order to let kids in school full time. Here is a quote from Feb 2021:

"Fairfax County Public Schools Superintendent Scott Brabrand says that is the most this large suburban Washington, DC, school district can do while still following US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines for safe school re-opening. The county is currently in the red zone."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/28/politics/fairfax-county-virginia-schools-reopen-covid/index.html

There physically wasn't enough space to social distance with all children attending school.

Now if you want to see that as an attack, go ahead.

The CDC guidelines that were the result of closed-door meetings with teachers unions? Yes, I remember those.

Stop lying or provide proof. Thanks in advance.

Do you know what a primary source is? Did you even bother to look at the FOIA response emails?

Stop deflecting and provide valid proof. Thanks in advance.

The emails demonstrating the meetings between the CDC and teachers unions before the release of the Feb 2021 guidelines are linked to above. Are you really claiming they didn’t happen?

[Anonymous]

Actually, maybe they were just alluded to.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/cdc-tightened-masking-guidelines-after-threats-from-teachers-union

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I taught in self-contained rooms for ED kids for years and they do work. Kids are taught at their pace, learn to use self-control strategies, and are not in trouble all day. These kids that are so often in heightened states are damaging their brains, and the kids that have to witness it all day ate experiencing secondary trauma. A self-contained program is not for life. It’s a reset, time to heal and get in control. The ones in my county have incredibly low enrollment, because the bar is so high to move them now. It’s not juvenile detention. It’s meeting their needs, building success, and then determining scaffolded returns to gen ed.

Yes, but that’s not what’s being proposed in this thread. They want to move all of the kids that are significantly disruptive in gen ed classrooms into the self-contained classrooms. And then they only want to move them back out after they’ve been able to demonstrate self control in the self-contained setting, where we all know they’re not likely to provide the necessary and appropriate resources.

How do you think that would go?

Are you a teacher? If not, do you understand what you're expecting from classroom teachers? It is too much. That's why they're quitting. I know a young teacher whose nose was broken by a student 6 weeks before her wedding. Most teachers do not have the training and do not want to deal with those types of behaviors day in and day out.

As a parent of a child with special needs, few would understand as well as I. My kid is younger, but I can certainly imagine what it would be like to scale him up by 2x or 3x.

I would certainly agree that teachers need help with these students. But you’re not asking for help. You’re trying to hide those students away so you can forget about them.

No, I'm not. I posted above that I've tried to help students with significant special needs for years. I was a special ed teacher and later a school psychologist. I'm just stating the obvious -- that classroom teachers are leaving because they can't cope with the large number of students with significant behaviors, and many school districts don't have the resources to provide 1:1 paras. Another factor -- I would imagine that very few DCUM posters are encouraging their children to become teachers. We have a problem that can't be ignored and will be even worse when the current teachers aged 55+ retire.

You didn’t say what your plan is, except to apparently build more overpasses for the kids you’d like to leave behind to live under. Though, I imagine you’re at an age now where that doesn’t really matter to you.

Not true. I still work part-time. You're distorting my words, not sure if intentionally or just not understanding. My plan would be to hire more teachers and paras, with smaller classes; however, I don't control the funding and have no influence over the number of teachers leaving the profession.

Ok, but if you look further up in the thread, the proposal was to fast-track kids into self-contained classrooms if they disrupt gen-ed classrooms, and make them earn their way back. This would obviously grossly increase the number of kids in those programs. And with no hope of fully staffing those programs, those kids wouldn't have a realistic path to get out of there.

The idea that more self-contained classrooms is the answer here is ridiculous. Yes, there will always be some set of students where that really is the best environment for them. But it will always be a small number, and it needs to be a small number because we'd never be able to recruit enough staff to handle large numbers effectively. 1:1 aides obviously have their own challenges, but for those that actually need it, its going to be cheaper and easier for the school district to provide than it would be to provide them with a self-contained program of similar educational quality.

The problem is, school districts are taking the easy way out, choosing to spend their money on lawyers to fight parents, rather than actually staffing and improving their programs.

A one in one aide who is not allowed to touch a kid who is out of control may as well not be there. Frankly these kids are given free reign to run around the school while available staff “block the exits” they are out of control because no teacher is going to touch your throwing spitting biting kicking and hitting child when you will file a lawsuit if we do. So your kid runs around destroying the school until they “burn themselves out.” I don’t think you truly understand the manpower involved when a kid starts running around the school. If we could just take the child to a sensory or break room to calm down it would be helpful but no one is allowed to touch them to get them there so they run wild. We are too scared of lawsuits to touch your kid. It is mentally and physically exhausting to go to work everyday knowing a kid may abuse you or the children you are supposed to protect at any point during the day and your only recourse is to move out of the way and or take the blows.

How does moving those kids out of your class solve those problems for everyone but you?

I’m not the PP, but all of the other kids and their parents, as well as the teachers, will be much happier if they’re able to learn in a safe and relatively calm environment at school. Educational outcomes world improve dramatically for 95% of students (or at least stop declining) and teachers wouldn’t be leaving the profession so rapidly either. How is that not obvious?

And the kids, teachers, and paras in the segregated classrooms? Screw ‘em?

Well the kids in that classroom are all disruptive so yeah, they will just need to deal with the disruptions from the other kids. As for the teachers and staff, of course they should receive different training to keep them safe, a higher salary for the worse conditions, and/or lowered expectations for reporting and other admin since they’ll need to spend more time on classroom management. Also of course these rooms would have a higher staff/student ratio with shared aides.

And 95% of kids (and teachers!) will no longer be sacrificed and we might be able to save what’s left of our public education system.

Why not use the substantial resources you’re referencing to actually support students and teachers in the LRE?

It’s because you know the schools wouldn’t properly staff the special education programs. It’s pretty clear from the tone of your post that you’re not interesting in helping those kids- you’re just trying to get rid of them.

The problem is that people like you make an assumption that LRE automatically means Gen Ed. It does not.

I’m not the person you are responding to, but it’s a big hurdle to get out of Gen Ed. That is certainly the default.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I taught in self-contained rooms for ED kids for years and they do work. Kids are taught at their pace, learn to use self-control strategies, and are not in trouble all day. These kids that are so often in heightened states are damaging their brains, and the kids that have to witness it all day ate experiencing secondary trauma. A self-contained program is not for life. It’s a reset, time to heal and get in control. The ones in my county have incredibly low enrollment, because the bar is so high to move them now. It’s not juvenile detention. It’s meeting their needs, building success, and then determining scaffolded returns to gen ed.

Yes, but that’s not what’s being proposed in this thread. They want to move all of the kids that are significantly disruptive in gen ed classrooms into the self-contained classrooms. And then they only want to move them back out after they’ve been able to demonstrate self control in the self-contained setting, where we all know they’re not likely to provide the necessary and appropriate resources.

How do you think that would go?

Are you a teacher? If not, do you understand what you're expecting from classroom teachers? It is too much. That's why they're quitting. I know a young teacher whose nose was broken by a student 6 weeks before her wedding. Most teachers do not have the training and do not want to deal with those types of behaviors day in and day out.

As a parent of a child with special needs, few would understand as well as I. My kid is younger, but I can certainly imagine what it would be like to scale him up by 2x or 3x.

I would certainly agree that teachers need help with these students. But you’re not asking for help. You’re trying to hide those students away so you can forget about them.

No, I'm not. I posted above that I've tried to help students with significant special needs for years. I was a special ed teacher and later a school psychologist. I'm just stating the obvious -- that classroom teachers are leaving because they can't cope with the large number of students with significant behaviors, and many school districts don't have the resources to provide 1:1 paras. Another factor -- I would imagine that very few DCUM posters are encouraging their children to become teachers. We have a problem that can't be ignored and will be even worse when the current teachers aged 55+ retire.

You didn’t say what your plan is, except to apparently build more overpasses for the kids you’d like to leave behind to live under. Though, I imagine you’re at an age now where that doesn’t really matter to you.

Not true. I still work part-time. You're distorting my words, not sure if intentionally or just not understanding. My plan would be to hire more teachers and paras, with smaller classes; however, I don't control the funding and have no influence over the number of teachers leaving the profession.

Ok, but if you look further up in the thread, the proposal was to fast-track kids into self-contained classrooms if they disrupt gen-ed classrooms, and make them earn their way back. This would obviously grossly increase the number of kids in those programs. And with no hope of fully staffing those programs, those kids wouldn't have a realistic path to get out of there.

The idea that more self-contained classrooms is the answer here is ridiculous. Yes, there will always be some set of students where that really is the best environment for them. But it will always be a small number, and it needs to be a small number because we'd never be able to recruit enough staff to handle large numbers effectively. 1:1 aides obviously have their own challenges, but for those that actually need it, its going to be cheaper and easier for the school district to provide than it would be to provide them with a self-contained program of similar educational quality.

The problem is, school districts are taking the easy way out, choosing to spend their money on lawyers to fight parents, rather than actually staffing and improving their programs.

A one in one aide who is not allowed to touch a kid who is out of control may as well not be there. Frankly these kids are given free reign to run around the school while available staff “block the exits” they are out of control because no teacher is going to touch your throwing spitting biting kicking and hitting child when you will file a lawsuit if we do. So your kid runs around destroying the school until they “burn themselves out.” I don’t think you truly understand the manpower involved when a kid starts running around the school. If we could just take the child to a sensory or break room to calm down it would be helpful but no one is allowed to touch them to get them there so they run wild. We are too scared of lawsuits to touch your kid. It is mentally and physically exhausting to go to work everyday knowing a kid may abuse you or the children you are supposed to protect at any point during the day and your only recourse is to move out of the way and or take the blows.

How does moving those kids out of your class solve those problems for everyone but you?

I’m not the PP, but all of the other kids and their parents, as well as the teachers, will be much happier if they’re able to learn in a safe and relatively calm environment at school. Educational outcomes world improve dramatically for 95% of students (or at least stop declining) and teachers wouldn’t be leaving the profession so rapidly either. How is that not obvious?

And the kids, teachers, and paras in the segregated classrooms? Screw ‘em?

Well the kids in that classroom are all disruptive so yeah, they will just need to deal with the disruptions from the other kids. As for the teachers and staff, of course they should receive different training to keep them safe, a higher salary for the worse conditions, and/or lowered expectations for reporting and other admin since they’ll need to spend more time on classroom management. Also of course these rooms would have a higher staff/student ratio with shared aides.

And 95% of kids (and teachers!) will no longer be sacrificed and we might be able to save what’s left of our public education system.

Why not use the substantial resources you’re referencing to actually support students and teachers in the LRE?

It’s because you know the schools wouldn’t properly staff the special education programs. It’s pretty clear from the tone of your post that you’re not interesting in helping those kids- you’re just trying to get rid of them.

The problem is that people like you make an assumption that LRE automatically means Gen Ed. It does not.

I’m not the person you are responding to, but it’s a big hurdle to get out of Gen Ed. That is certainly the default.

Yeah, that definitely needs to change. I wonder how much of the resistance is about money and how much is about misinterpretation of the law.

We need to start some behavioral problem schools and fund them at the state level so the school districts don’t need to foot the bill for it. Towns and cities can then share the schools. If schools don’t make sense because there are only a couple of students in a town or rural area then we should fund private tutors or private placement, but the default needs to be a public option and getting all of those kids out of gen ed as soon as it’s clear to teachers and admin that the student has a real problem that can’t be quickly solved with normal classroom management techniques. That should improve conditions significantly for teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I taught in self-contained rooms for ED kids for years and they do work. Kids are taught at their pace, learn to use self-control strategies, and are not in trouble all day. These kids that are so often in heightened states are damaging their brains, and the kids that have to witness it all day ate experiencing secondary trauma. A self-contained program is not for life. It’s a reset, time to heal and get in control. The ones in my county have incredibly low enrollment, because the bar is so high to move them now. It’s not juvenile detention. It’s meeting their needs, building success, and then determining scaffolded returns to gen ed.

Yes, but that’s not what’s being proposed in this thread. They want to move all of the kids that are significantly disruptive in gen ed classrooms into the self-contained classrooms. And then they only want to move them back out after they’ve been able to demonstrate self control in the self-contained setting, where we all know they’re not likely to provide the necessary and appropriate resources.

How do you think that would go?

Are you a teacher? If not, do you understand what you're expecting from classroom teachers? It is too much. That's why they're quitting. I know a young teacher whose nose was broken by a student 6 weeks before her wedding. Most teachers do not have the training and do not want to deal with those types of behaviors day in and day out.

As a parent of a child with special needs, few would understand as well as I. My kid is younger, but I can certainly imagine what it would be like to scale him up by 2x or 3x.

I would certainly agree that teachers need help with these students. But you’re not asking for help. You’re trying to hide those students away so you can forget about them.

No, I'm not. I posted above that I've tried to help students with significant special needs for years. I was a special ed teacher and later a school psychologist. I'm just stating the obvious -- that classroom teachers are leaving because they can't cope with the large number of students with significant behaviors, and many school districts don't have the resources to provide 1:1 paras. Another factor -- I would imagine that very few DCUM posters are encouraging their children to become teachers. We have a problem that can't be ignored and will be even worse when the current teachers aged 55+ retire.

You didn’t say what your plan is, except to apparently build more overpasses for the kids you’d like to leave behind to live under. Though, I imagine you’re at an age now where that doesn’t really matter to you.

Not true. I still work part-time. You're distorting my words, not sure if intentionally or just not understanding. My plan would be to hire more teachers and paras, with smaller classes; however, I don't control the funding and have no influence over the number of teachers leaving the profession.

Ok, but if you look further up in the thread, the proposal was to fast-track kids into self-contained classrooms if they disrupt gen-ed classrooms, and make them earn their way back. This would obviously grossly increase the number of kids in those programs. And with no hope of fully staffing those programs, those kids wouldn't have a realistic path to get out of there.

The idea that more self-contained classrooms is the answer here is ridiculous. Yes, there will always be some set of students where that really is the best environment for them. But it will always be a small number, and it needs to be a small number because we'd never be able to recruit enough staff to handle large numbers effectively. 1:1 aides obviously have their own challenges, but for those that actually need it, its going to be cheaper and easier for the school district to provide than it would be to provide them with a self-contained program of similar educational quality.

The problem is, school districts are taking the easy way out, choosing to spend their money on lawyers to fight parents, rather than actually staffing and improving their programs.

A one in one aide who is not allowed to touch a kid who is out of control may as well not be there. Frankly these kids are given free reign to run around the school while available staff “block the exits” they are out of control because no teacher is going to touch your throwing spitting biting kicking and hitting child when you will file a lawsuit if we do. So your kid runs around destroying the school until they “burn themselves out.” I don’t think you truly understand the manpower involved when a kid starts running around the school. If we could just take the child to a sensory or break room to calm down it would be helpful but no one is allowed to touch them to get them there so they run wild. We are too scared of lawsuits to touch your kid. It is mentally and physically exhausting to go to work everyday knowing a kid may abuse you or the children you are supposed to protect at any point during the day and your only recourse is to move out of the way and or take the blows.

How does moving those kids out of your class solve those problems for everyone but you?

I’m not the PP, but all of the other kids and their parents, as well as the teachers, will be much happier if they’re able to learn in a safe and relatively calm environment at school. Educational outcomes world improve dramatically for 95% of students (or at least stop declining) and teachers wouldn’t be leaving the profession so rapidly either. How is that not obvious?

And the kids, teachers, and paras in the segregated classrooms? Screw ‘em?

Well the kids in that classroom are all disruptive so yeah, they will just need to deal with the disruptions from the other kids. As for the teachers and staff, of course they should receive different training to keep them safe, a higher salary for the worse conditions, and/or lowered expectations for reporting and other admin since they’ll need to spend more time on classroom management. Also of course these rooms would have a higher staff/student ratio with shared aides.

And 95% of kids (and teachers!) will no longer be sacrificed and we might be able to save what’s left of our public education system.

Why not use the substantial resources you’re referencing to actually support students and teachers in the LRE?

It’s because you know the schools wouldn’t properly staff the special education programs. It’s pretty clear from the tone of your post that you’re not interesting in helping those kids- you’re just trying to get rid of them.

The problem is that people like you make an assumption that LRE automatically means Gen Ed. It does not.

I’m not the person you are responding to, but it’s a big hurdle to get out of Gen Ed. That is certainly the default.

Yeah, that definitely needs to change. I wonder how much of the resistance is about money and how much is about misinterpretation of the law.

We need to start some behavioral problem schools and fund them at the state level so the school districts don’t need to foot the bill for it. Towns and cities can then share the schools. If schools don’t make sense because there are only a couple of students in a town or rural area then we should fund private tutors or private placement, but the default needs to be a public option and getting all of those kids out of gen ed as soon as it’s clear to teachers and admin that the student has a real problem that can’t be quickly solved with normal classroom management techniques. That should improve conditions significantly for teachers.

Many parents would fight placement, there is a stigma to this type of placement and bussing across town is also unpopular. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to make more center based programs but I’m not optimistic they’d have a huge impact