VRBO won't refund Sanibel stay for next week

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Source for that? As I recall from when I dealt with them, the only requirement was that refund policies be “fair” (which was not defined and thus could be considered ambiguous), clearly discolored and in compliance with applicable law.

"An Advance Payment Charge is a Charge for which full payment is made in advance of your providing the goods and/or rendering the services to the Cardmember.
Advance Payment Charge procedures are available for custom-orders (e.g., orders for goods to be manufactured to a customer's specifications), entertainment / ticketing (e.g., sporting
events, concerts, season tickets), tuition, room and board, and other mandatory fees (e.g. library fees) of higher educational institutions, airline tickets, vehicle rentals, rail tickets, cruise line
tickets, lodging, travel-related services (e.g., tours, guided expeditions). For an Advance Payment Charge, you must (i) state your full cancellation and refund policies, (ii) clearly disclose your
intent and obtain written consent from the Cardmember to bill the Card for an Advance Payment Charge before you request an Authorisation, which consent must include: (a) the
Cardmember's agreement to all the terms of the sale (including price and any cancellation and refund policies), and (b) a detailed description and the expected delivery date of the goods and /
or services to be provided (including, if applicable, expected arrival and departure dates); (iii) obtain an Authorisation Approval; (iv) complete a Charge Record. If the Advance Payment Charge
is a Card Not Present Charge, you must also ensure that the Charge Record contains the words “Advance Payment” and within twenty-four (24) hours of the Charge being incurred, provide the
Cardmember written confirmation (e.g., email or facsimile) of the Advance Payment Charge, the amount, the confirmation number (if applicable), a detailed description and expected delivery
date of the goods and / or services to be provided (including expected arrival and departure dates, if applicable) and details of your cancellation / refund policy. If you cannot deliver goods and /
or services (e.g., because custom-ordered merchandise cannot be fulfilled), and if alternate arrangements cannot be made, you must immediately issue a Credit for the full amount of the
Advance Payment Charge which cannot be fulfilled. In addition to our other Chargeback rights, we may Chargeback for any Disputed Advance Payment Charge or portion thereof if, in our sole
discretion, the dispute cannot be resolved in your favour based upon unambiguous terms contained in the terms of sale to which you obtained the Cardmember's written consent."

“and if alternate arrangements cannot be made” is doing a lot of work here (if this agreement even applies; there are different merchant agreements). Offering to let OP rebook the unit for a later date is an “alternative arrangement” for use of the unit.

arrangements being made implies agreement of the parties. A property rental for a one week is not fungible with a rental for another week

Not necessarily. This happens all the time with entertainment and sporting events that are rescheduled. As long as the policy is disclosed, it is permissible under the merchant agreements to transfer a ticket holder’s ticket to the rescheduled date without offering a refund. If the ticket purchaser cannot or does not want to attend on that date, it is on them to resell or transfer the ticket to someone else if they want, but they cannot get a refund on the ticket.

So once again, we come back to the rental agreement providing the answer. Without knowing the terms, we are all speculating.

I've done multiple chargebacks for that reason and have won every single one of them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here.

I can't find any info on the condition of the development I was going to stay in to judge its condition after Ian but I did find this video of a neighboring condo (~250 yards down the beach from my booking, which was also beachfront):

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sanibel/comments/xtvlde/footage_of_sanibel_siesta/

As to the contract, I can't even find an actual legal contract on VRBO for my booking. Does anyone know where on the website it is? All I see are the "cancellation policies" which is the standard "60 day policy":

- 100% refund of amount paid if you cancel at least 60 days before check-in
- No refund if you cancel less than 60 days before check-in

Where is the actual rental contract? I don't have it in my email from when I made the booking either.

Even if I go to make a new booking next year, at no point in the checkout process do I see a link to the actual contract (obviously I am not finalizing the checkout process).

I can find the general VRBO terms and conditions, but they relate to the VRBO platform and have nothing to do with the actual rental contract itself: https://www.vrbo.com/legal/terms-and-conditions

There is no VRBO "contract." If the owner has his/her own contract incorporated into their listing you are given a chance to see the contract and then agree to it when you make your booking. If the owner has no contract (other than their listed cancellation policy) that you agreed to when booking then each party is on their own as to whether a refund is appropriate. IN that circumstance the credit card company would seem to the entity that would make the ultimate decision.

If you accept payment via credit card, you've agreed that their agreements supersede yours

Absolutely not. If you have a binding agreement that clearly spells out the obligations of each party then the credit card company will stay out of the dispute -- as the terms of your private contract is binding. It is where there is no contract or the contract does not address the issue that the credit card company and its terms may come into play.

-a lawyer

Your credit card company goes by their merchant agreement in adjudicating a dispute and those clearly require refunds when services paid for are not provided

Not if in your contract you agreed to pay with no refunds or exceptions for Acts of God.

Amex's merchant agreement specifically prohibits those clauses

Source for that? As I recall from when I dealt with them, the only requirement was that refund policies be “fair” (which was not defined and thus could be considered ambiguous), clearly discolored and in compliance with applicable law.

"An Advance Payment Charge is a Charge for which full payment is made in advance of your providing the goods and/or rendering the services to the Cardmember.
Advance Payment Charge procedures are available for custom-orders (e.g., orders for goods to be manufactured to a customer's specifications), entertainment / ticketing (e.g., sporting
events, concerts, season tickets), tuition, room and board, and other mandatory fees (e.g. library fees) of higher educational institutions, airline tickets, vehicle rentals, rail tickets, cruise line
tickets, lodging, travel-related services (e.g., tours, guided expeditions). For an Advance Payment Charge, you must (i) state your full cancellation and refund policies, (ii) clearly disclose your
intent and obtain written consent from the Cardmember to bill the Card for an Advance Payment Charge before you request an Authorisation, which consent must include: (a) the
Cardmember's agreement to all the terms of the sale (including price and any cancellation and refund policies), and (b) a detailed description and the expected delivery date of the goods and /
or services to be provided (including, if applicable, expected arrival and departure dates); (iii) obtain an Authorisation Approval; (iv) complete a Charge Record. If the Advance Payment Charge
is a Card Not Present Charge, you must also ensure that the Charge Record contains the words “Advance Payment” and within twenty-four (24) hours of the Charge being incurred, provide the
Cardmember written confirmation (e.g., email or facsimile) of the Advance Payment Charge, the amount, the confirmation number (if applicable), a detailed description and expected delivery
date of the goods and / or services to be provided (including expected arrival and departure dates, if applicable) and details of your cancellation / refund policy. If you cannot deliver goods and /
or services (e.g., because custom-ordered merchandise cannot be fulfilled), and if alternate arrangements cannot be made, you must immediately issue a Credit for the full amount of the
Advance Payment Charge which cannot be fulfilled. In addition to our other Chargeback rights, we may Chargeback for any Disputed Advance Payment Charge or portion thereof if, in our sole
discretion, the dispute cannot be resolved in your favour based upon unambiguous terms contained in the terms of sale to which you obtained the Cardmember's written consent."

“and if alternate arrangements cannot be made” is doing a lot of work here (if this agreement even applies; there are different merchant agreements). Offering to let OP rebook the unit for a later date is an “alternative arrangement” for use of the unit.

arrangements being made implies agreement of the parties. A property rental for a one week is not fungible with a rental for another week

Not necessarily. This happens all the time with entertainment and sporting events that are rescheduled. As long as the policy is disclosed, it is permissible under the merchant agreements to transfer a ticket holder’s ticket to the rescheduled date without offering a refund. If the ticket purchaser cannot or does not want to attend on that date, it is on them to resell or transfer the ticket to someone else if they want, but they cannot get a refund on the ticket.

So once again, we come back to the rental agreement providing the answer. Without knowing the terms, we are all speculating.

I've done multiple chargebacks for that reason and have won every single one of them

Sure you have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VRBO is notorious for its terrible customer service. They want to put everything on the owners and provide little to no assistance. At the beginning of covid I had 2 friends who had to cancel reservations because of lockdown and the owners refused to refund the money. VRBO said it wasn't their problem.

To me this is a different situation. The house was there and available, but outside forces (pandemic) intervened and the renters cancelled.

In this scenario OP is presuming (rightly so) that the owner does not have a rentable property available as advertised. If there is no power, it is not an a/c property. If there is no running water it isn't a 2BA house with shower, toilet, dishwasher, etc. Heck, it may have foundation damage and not even be habitable. OP paid for a good that the owner almost certainly can't deliver.

Unless the contract says otherwise. We can speculate all we want but the key Q is what did OP promise?

Seems odd that a contract would force a renter to pay to rent a destroyed house on an unreachable island when they signed a contract for a fully functioning house with water, sewer, and electricity connected to the mainland with a bridge.

Not everything on Sanibel was destroyed. From CNN:

“Dan and Tony Tabor were lucky. The couple returned to their Sanibel home prepared for the worst, with water, bleach and drywall cutters in tow to begin the rebuilding process.

Instead, they found it practically untouched by the storm, with the screens on their porch still in place and plants left outside still upright. If they wanted to, they said, they could spend tonight in the home.”

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/10/05/us/hurricane-ian-florida-recovery-wednesday/index.html

Even if there's a one in a million chance the house is standing, there is literally zero way for a non-owner/resident to access the island. In addition to that, there is no electricity or running water which by legal standards, deems the property uninhabitable. This is not really that hard to understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:VRBO is notorious for its terrible customer service. They want to put everything on the owners and provide little to no assistance. At the beginning of covid I had 2 friends who had to cancel reservations because of lockdown and the owners refused to refund the money. VRBO said it wasn't their problem.

To me this is a different situation. The house was there and available, but outside forces (pandemic) intervened and the renters cancelled.

In this scenario OP is presuming (rightly so) that the owner does not have a rentable property available as advertised. If there is no power, it is not an a/c property. If there is no running water it isn't a 2BA house with shower, toilet, dishwasher, etc. Heck, it may have foundation damage and not even be habitable. OP paid for a good that the owner almost certainly can't deliver.

Unless the contract says otherwise. We can speculate all we want but the key Q is what did OP promise?

Seems odd that a contract would force a renter to pay to rent a destroyed house on an unreachable island when they signed a contract for a fully functioning house with water, sewer, and electricity connected to the mainland with a bridge.

DP. You have no idea if the place OP rented was destroyed.

100% of the properties on Sanibel have damage.

[Anonymous]

this link will show you property damage:
https://sanibel.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/2033aa6f46444cfb85bd1f26ac6bcedb

So if you know the address- search it up.

All properties are damaged to some level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:this link will show you property damage:
https://sanibel.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/2033aa6f46444cfb85bd1f26ac6bcedb

So if you know the address- search it up.

All properties are damaged to some level.

Again, that isn't proof you have to be there to see it in person

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:this link will show you property damage:
https://sanibel.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/2033aa6f46444cfb85bd1f26ac6bcedb

So if you know the address- search it up.

All properties are damaged to some level.

Based on your map, it appears that the majority of properties have minor to no damage. If the damage is limited to some shutters knocked off the house and a section of fencing that needs repair, that's not going to warrant cancelling the reservation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is ridiculous. Call their bluff. Say you are planning to arrive on check in day, and you expect the property will be "as advertised" when you booked it. Meaning: accessible by car, electricity, water, a pool, restaurants close by, etc. Ask them to verify all these things are STILL TRUE and you will come (which you won't, you're calling their bluff). Screen shot the listing before you do this.

+1. You are not cancelling the reservation in this case. They are in breach if they are unable to fulfill the contract. Do everything above, and let them know you'll be disputing this on your credit card and contacting your lawyer if the premises isn't as advertised.

I feel for them as they likely need any money they can get in this disaster, but they don't get to keep your money without delivering the goods or services they have advertised.

I suspect mores cases of this involve properties not occupied by owner. This would be an argument for vrbo and Airbnb to require property owners to live on-site.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this link will show you property damage:
https://sanibel.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/2033aa6f46444cfb85bd1f26ac6bcedb

So if you know the address- search it up.

All properties are damaged to some level.

Based on your map, it appears that the majority of properties have minor to no damage. If the damage is limited to some shutters knocked off the house and a section of fencing that needs repair, that's not going to warrant cancelling the reservation.

except for the pesky problem of actually getting there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this link will show you property damage:
https://sanibel.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/2033aa6f46444cfb85bd1f26ac6bcedb

So if you know the address- search it up.

All properties are damaged to some level.

Based on your map, it appears that the majority of properties have minor to no damage. If the damage is limited to some shutters knocked off the house and a section of fencing that needs repair, that's not going to warrant cancelling the reservation.

except for the pesky problem of actually getting there.

and piles of trash, no water, no electricity, no cell service, no amenities and alligators running wild.

[Anonymous]

We had a hotel in a foreign country try to pull this on us. We had booked and pre-paid, and then COVID hit. US citizens (and all foreigners) were barred from going to that country and hotels were legally barred from renting rooms to foreigners. They refused to refund us. We disputed with our CC and won.

[Anonymous]

Send an email to a bunch of senior executives Expedia, including their CEO. Trust me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Send an email to a bunch of senior executives Expedia, including their CEO. Trust me.

*snort* Good luck getting relief from the executives of Expedia.

[Anonymous]

GIven what happened it may be like trying to get blood from a turnip. They may not have it to give you.

[Anonymous]

I am really confused how you booked for Sanibel during hurricane season without hurricane insurance.