Plane crash DCA?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Scared of what? Words and perception?

You’ve never seen loud angry people yelling at innocents in a scary, in-your-face way? Have you ever seen news footage of families entering a court room in a contentious case for example? Have you ever read about the way the Sandy Hook families were treated? Stop playing dumb.

But the concern is over "dragging" which is ridiculous. Who is calling for violence against the family? Nobody. This is all to avoid a hard conversation, or "dragging" which does not make the Army look very good here.

If I’m the family, my concern is I don’t want these crazies yelling at me on my front yard or confronting me in the grocery store.

There is zero evidence that anyone wants to go after the family, just in your persecuted mind. That is not a valid excuse anyway.

What planet have you been living on?
I want to go there

And it's their loved one. they don't need give you a valid excuse, ghoul

Did the American Airlines crew and passengers get the same options?

The AA crew abs passengers were not at fault here. It’s like being stopped at a red light and getting t-boned.

You have no idea what happened. Stop speculating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

It will all come out soon. But you deserve to be dragged if you slaughter 64 people.

Even if there was no intent or signs of gross negligence? What if they truly just did not see the plane despite doing everything they should have been doing? Humans are fallible. All humans.

There are clear signs of gross negligence. The crew ignored ATC instructions.

We simply don’t know that. They could have had eyes on a different plane. Many experienced pilots have said as much. It’s entirely plausible, no matter how much you insist otherwise.

You honestly think they could miss a plane sitting directly in front of them on a clear night? The plane was sitting in the holding pattern. It wasn’t even moving and magically appeared out of nowhere. Planes do not magically shrink once in the sky. The helicopter was not a far enough distance away to even have a miscommunication of illusion of size. The airplane was illuminating light and directly in front of it.

A lot of those claims don't make any sense when you look at where the planes were.

Some looked at the videos of the crash and said the helo pilots may have been looking at the departing flight. The timing of that doesn't make sense. The helo said they had eyes on the plane before the departing flight took off.

Others said they may have been looking at the next plane on approach. But that was 4 miles away. And even if they did make that mistake, they were still told to wait and cross behind that plane, which they obviously didn't do.

[Anonymous]

Unless they were fooling around inside of the helicopter, not looking ahead or up or down, how on earth did not one person see the plane in front of them? Helicopters are agile, the plane was blinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can help but wonder what would have happened if the ATC had been a tad more explicit in his second communication: "PAT 25 you are on collision course with plane landing at runway 33". I'm not saying he was or should have been required to say this but I wonder if the ATCs at Reagan should NOT have placed so much trust in military helos given all the issues that have apparently been going on forever with near collisions and planes having to abort landing and them flying above 200. Maybe if they were not short staffed, the ATC might have said something more explicit.

I don't think the helicopter WAS on a collision course with the plane? If you watch videos of the radar screen it looks like two craft are colliding all the time but they're not because they're at different heights. If the helicopter had continued on the path it was on, it sounds like they wouldn't have crashed?

Yes it appears that if the helicopter had stayed down at 200 ft, it would have been a close call but likely not a collision. Also according to radar the helicopter moved to the west before the collision, which is significant because they received directions from ATC to go behind the landing aircraft, which would necessitate either holding up and waiting for the airplane to pass, or moving east.

I don't really get all the second guessing of the ATC's actions at this point because we hear the ATC warn the helicopter multiple times of the plane and give directions to go behind. Even if the helicopter had eyes on the wrong plane, the multiple warnings and direction should have alerted the helicopter to the nearness of the plane.

According to the Washington Post, there were 12 seconds between ATCs second warning to the helicopter of the plane in its path and the collision. That is enough time for the helicopter to take evasive action.

ATC did what they could. They are not flying these aircraft. All they can do is provide information and direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

We also don't know why they are withholding the name.

The location and position of the helicopter made it hard to remove the bodies, and the last I checked, not all bodies (including the pilot in question) had been identified.

Perhaps the family didn't want to release the name because the body was not yet recovered and some part of them thought it was still possible it was some horrible mistake. This is irrational but understandable.

Not saying that's what it is, just noting everyone is jumping to the conclusion that the family is hiding the name for security reasons. But all the military said is that the name is being withheld by the family due to the "sensitivity of the matter." That could mean a lot of things. We don't know.

That won’t stop the ODD Karens from speculating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Scared of what? Words and perception?

You’ve never seen loud angry people yelling at innocents in a scary, in-your-face way? Have you ever seen news footage of families entering a court room in a contentious case for example? Have you ever read about the way the Sandy Hook families were treated? Stop playing dumb.

But the concern is over "dragging" which is ridiculous. Who is calling for violence against the family? Nobody. This is all to avoid a hard conversation, or "dragging" which does not make the Army look very good here.

If I’m the family, my concern is I don’t want these crazies yelling at me on my front yard or confronting me in the grocery store.

There is zero evidence that anyone wants to go after the family, just in your persecuted mind. That is not a valid excuse anyway.

What planet have you been living on?
I want to go there

And it's their loved one. they don't need give you a valid excuse, ghoul

Did the American Airlines crew and passengers get the same options?

The AA crew abs passengers were not at fault here. It’s like being stopped at a red light and getting t-boned.

You have no idea what happened. Stop speculating.

We certainly know that much. The CJR was coming in for a landing and the helo flew into their flight path when they were supposed to wait.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Scared of what? Words and perception?

You’ve never seen loud angry people yelling at innocents in a scary, in-your-face way? Have you ever seen news footage of families entering a court room in a contentious case for example? Have you ever read about the way the Sandy Hook families were treated? Stop playing dumb.

But the concern is over "dragging" which is ridiculous. Who is calling for violence against the family? Nobody. This is all to avoid a hard conversation, or "dragging" which does not make the Army look very good here.

If I’m the family, my concern is I don’t want these crazies yelling at me on my front yard or confronting me in the grocery store.

There is zero evidence that anyone wants to go after the family, just in your persecuted mind. That is not a valid excuse anyway.

What planet have you been living on?
I want to go there

And it's their loved one. they don't need give you a valid excuse, ghoul

Did the American Airlines crew and passengers get the same options?

The AA crew abs passengers were not at fault here. It’s like being stopped at a red light and getting t-boned.

You have no idea what happened. Stop speculating.

There is no speculation, it’s obvious the AA plane wasn’t acting abnormally or flying erratically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:


Unless they were fooling around inside of the helicopter, not looking ahead or up or down, how on earth did not one person see the plane in front of them? Helicopters are agile, the plane was blinking.

NVGs. Urban lighting. It’s possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

It will all come out soon. But you deserve to be dragged if you slaughter 64 people.

Even if there was no intent or signs of gross negligence? What if they truly just did not see the plane despite doing everything they should have been doing? Humans are fallible. All humans.

There are clear signs of gross negligence. The crew ignored ATC instructions.

We simply don’t know that. They could have had eyes on a different plane. Many experienced pilots have said as much. It’s entirely plausible, no matter how much you insist otherwise.

You honestly think they could miss a plane sitting directly in front of them on a clear night? The plane was sitting in the holding pattern. It wasn’t even moving and magically appeared out of nowhere. Planes do not magically shrink once in the sky. The helicopter was not a far enough distance away to even have a miscommunication of illusion of size. The airplane was illuminating light and directly in front of it.

A lot of those claims don't make any sense when you look at where the planes were.

Some looked at the videos of the crash and said the helo pilots may have been looking at the departing flight. The timing of that doesn't make sense. The helo said they had eyes on the plane before the departing flight took off.

Others said they may have been looking at the next plane on approach. But that was 4 miles away. And even if they did make that mistake, they were still told to wait and cross behind that plane, which they obviously didn't do.

I think a lot of pilots and aviation experts are horrified by this incident and reaching for this explanation because it absolves the helicopter pilots of blame.

I understand this instinct but it looks increasingly incorrect the more we know. The timing of the collision, the number of warnings to the helicopter, and the helicopter's maneuvers prior to collision all point in another direction.

I believe the helicopter pilots did not see the plane before hitting it, but I don't think it's because they were looking at a plane further down the river. I think they lost sight of the plane at the last minute and either got confused or made a flying error, or both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Scared of what? Words and perception?

You’ve never seen loud angry people yelling at innocents in a scary, in-your-face way? Have you ever seen news footage of families entering a court room in a contentious case for example? Have you ever read about the way the Sandy Hook families were treated? Stop playing dumb.

But the concern is over "dragging" which is ridiculous. Who is calling for violence against the family? Nobody. This is all to avoid a hard conversation, or "dragging" which does not make the Army look very good here.

If I’m the family, my concern is I don’t want these crazies yelling at me on my front yard or confronting me in the grocery store.

There is zero evidence that anyone wants to go after the family, just in your persecuted mind. That is not a valid excuse anyway.

What planet have you been living on?
I want to go there

And it's their loved one. they don't need give you a valid excuse, ghoul

Did the American Airlines crew and passengers get the same options?

The AA crew abs passengers were not at fault here. It’s like being stopped at a red light and getting t-boned.

You have no idea what happened. Stop speculating.

There is no speculation, it’s obvious the AA plane wasn’t acting abnormally or flying erratically.

You don’t know “It’s like being stopped at a red light and getting t-boned.”

You don’t know what it was like. You don’t have all of the facts/evidence. You aren’t an experienced investigator. You are just an internet rando spewing BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

It will all come out soon. But you deserve to be dragged if you slaughter 64 people.

Even if there was no intent or signs of gross negligence? What if they truly just did not see the plane despite doing everything they should have been doing? Humans are fallible. All humans.

There are clear signs of gross negligence. The crew ignored ATC instructions.

We simply don’t know that. They could have had eyes on a different plane. Many experienced pilots have said as much. It’s entirely plausible, no matter how much you insist otherwise.

Yes, we do. ATC said to let the plane pass in front of them before proceeding (go behind). They didn't do that.

They could have been looking at a different plane. As many experts have said. I’m going to believe them over an angry internet rando.

Maybe, but they didn't go behind *any* plane. Even if they were looking at the wrong plane, they still disobeyed ATC commands.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


Unless they were fooling around inside of the helicopter, not looking ahead or up or down, how on earth did not one person see the plane in front of them? Helicopters are agile, the plane was blinking.

NVGs. Urban lighting. It’s possible.

Those pilots are wearing NVG and image 1 is from the actual army website.

This is NVG no moon night and I’m not an expert but can see between land and sky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So they've finally announced that a black box has been recovered from the helicopter. Previously they'd only mentioned the two black boxes from the AA plane.

I'm relieved to hear both that one exists from the helicopter and that the military is acknowledging its existence, which increases the odds that we will actually learn what is on it.

Why do YOU need to learn what was on it? So you can commence with your armchair sleuthing? What do you bring to the table? What are your qualifications?

WE get to know what’s on it because WE fly out of that damn airport all the time and WE live below it’s flight path so WE get to demand transparency and accurate information so we can trust that this won’t happen again.

No, you aren’t entitled to anything. Chill TF out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who has been involved in accident investigations, I prefer that the crewmember information NOT be released at this stage. It should be anonymized during the course of the investigation, so as to avoid any risk of subconscious bias (or even the appearance of such). Let the investigation go where the data leads. Once a probable cause has been determined, IF there is reason to suspect that the skills, training or experience of the personnel were a factor, THEN proceed to examine their records to determine where those factors fell short.

The only reason to examine records at this point, before anyone has a full picture of what happened, is to scapegoat the least experienced member of the team. (And btw, it's not always the least experienced person who actually made the mistake! Another good reason to wait for the investigation to conclude on the evidence before jumping to blame any individual.)

That sounds reasonable. But that also isn’t how things are done here. The two other crew members’ names have been released. The American Airlines pilots’ names have been released. They are withholding one name. The name of the women thought it have been flying the helicopter. That is shady. I cannot recall any transportation disaster that has killed as many people as this where the pilot, captain, driver, etc. name isn’t released

Trump prematurely blamed the pilot during a national press conference. He needs to learn to keep his mouth shut. He is the reason her name hasn’t been released. He is the reason that her family will probably be terrorized.

Anyone who has seen the video can come to that conclusion.

Actually, half the people on this thread were talking about ATC. Some people are still talking about a "perfect storm" like there is blame to go around. Really, the thread shifted dramatically to blame the helicopter exclusively only once it was known that the pilot was a woman. So, please don't act like everyone is judging based on evidence.

Also, reasonable people who assume that helo is at fault do not single out the pilot. We have all heard the male voice talking to ATC. There is every reason to assume he is part of the fatal error. There is the soldier in the back, who we have been told has a significant role - he has a part, too. If it was a training flight, then a person supervising must take on the ultimate responsibility. In no way, is it obvious to me that this is one pilot's responsibility. Moreover, what about the military, who several people on this thread with connections, have said disregard non-military protocol, flout non-military authority, and casually make up their own rules... what about them?? If that is indeed the culture, and helos routinely fly at 400ft altitude right next to National, then of course the military shares in the blame, too. Maybe the lion's share. And what about the "VIP" culture of flying to avoid ground traffic? If it turns out that that is part of the story, of course that is part of the problem, too! And even in this situation, I don't put the blame directly on the VIP, but on the people who allow it and approve the practice.

No matter what the situation is, though, a person with any leadership skills (much less an ounce of human decency) doesn't say what Trump said right after the accident. Once again, he has shown himself to be thoroughly unpresidential.

Yes and nobody is hiding the names of the other people on the helicopter. Just the one. Reasonable people can also conclude that is odd.

Look, I disagree with hiding the name. And I also think it is making everything worse. But there are pretty obvious, not suspicious reasons why they are doing so, including the totally reasonable fear of vigilante street justice.

The family is withholding the name. They have a right to grieve without maga dragging their loved one for being a woman. They are likely scared based on what is happening right in front of our faces.

Scared of what? Words and perception?

You’ve never seen loud angry people yelling at innocents in a scary, in-your-face way? Have you ever seen news footage of families entering a court room in a contentious case for example? Have you ever read about the way the Sandy Hook families were treated? Stop playing dumb.

But the concern is over "dragging" which is ridiculous. Who is calling for violence against the family? Nobody. This is all to avoid a hard conversation, or "dragging" which does not make the Army look very good here.

If I’m the family, my concern is I don’t want these crazies yelling at me on my front yard or confronting me in the grocery store.

There is zero evidence that anyone wants to go after the family, just in your persecuted mind. That is not a valid excuse anyway.

What planet have you been living on?
I want to go there

And it's their loved one. they don't need give you a valid excuse, ghoul

Did the American Airlines crew and passengers get the same options?

The AA crew abs passengers were not at fault here. It’s like being stopped at a red light and getting t-boned.

You have no idea what happened. Stop speculating.

There is no speculation, it’s obvious the AA plane wasn’t acting abnormally or flying erratically.

You don’t know “It’s like being stopped at a red light and getting t-boned.”

You don’t know what it was like. You don’t have all of the facts/evidence. You aren’t an experienced investigator. You are just an internet rando spewing BS.

Well, seeing as how AA was holding got landing when they got hit, sure seems like it was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


Unless they were fooling around inside of the helicopter, not looking ahead or up or down, how on earth did not one person see the plane in front of them? Helicopters are agile, the plane was blinking.

NVGs. Urban lighting. It’s possible.

Those pilots are wearing NVG and image 1 is from the actual army website.

This is NVG no moon night and I’m not an expert but can see between land and sky.

I love how some idiot sees a photo online and is now an expert in complicated technology and understands the situation fully.

Newsflash: you are clueless and speculating. It helps no one.