"Opening up" means risking your life

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

Even a third grader could explain the basic differences between HIV and this.

Ehh you could make the same case with the flu. There’s a vaccine but still multiple strains of it.

It’s much better than nothing, no?

As long as it’s not forced on the entire population or else you can’t go to work, travel, etc, I’m all for it.

But they better not force everyone to take it. I’m not anti-vaxx but those things are far from perfect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Watch - Trump and his "task force" including Novarro are going to make sure ample testing supplies go directly to red states, just as PPE was directed to red states.

Has California Governor Gavin Newsom not received what he’s asked for?

Not even close. Are you not seeing the articles about hospitals and blue states needing national guard troops to protect their ordered goods from DHS seizure? This is happening all over th country where the "brown shirts" are basically pirating needed supplies.

Feel free to cite such an article from a reputable news entity that does not have a partisan agenda. CNN would be fine. TIA.

Read this outrageous story from a health care administrator about what he had to go through to get PPE for his hospitals and then get back to us.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2010025

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

Even a third grader could explain the basic differences between HIV and this.

Go ahead, explain. I heard an expert, from Harvard, no less, say this on the radio the other night. There is no guarantee there will be a vaccine that works. None.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the discussion should be reframed a little bit to place the focus on pushy employers who will take advantage of Trump’s “open up” bullying. If employers order employees back to the office, then those employees can’t be blamed. But employees in the pvt sector have certain rights relating to join together to protest unacceptable working conditions.

Let the lawsuits begin!! If employers force workers back and those workers get infected, watch out!! The lawyers will be piling on fighting each other over the lawsuits, and there will be zillions of them.

I can't wait. My employers have no idea I have enough money to leave and sue. I'm not risking my health just so someone's bonus can be bigger.

But you'll have to get infected to sue. Are you willing to risk that? Even people in great health have died. It's a Russian Roulette virus. It kills mostly older people, but some younger folk have died, even people with no history of illness, fit, healthy. I'd rather stay home if I have the money, even if my employer orders me back to work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the discussion should be reframed a little bit to place the focus on pushy employers who will take advantage of Trump’s “open up” bullying. If employers order employees back to the office, then those employees can’t be blamed. But employees in the pvt sector have certain rights relating to join together to protest unacceptable working conditions.

Let the lawsuits begin!! If employers force workers back and those workers get infected, watch out!! The lawyers will be piling on fighting each other over the lawsuits, and there will be zillions of them.

Why stop there? Why not lawsuits against the individual spreader?

I think you could sue someone who knowingly spreads the disease. If someone has been diagnosed and ordered to stay home, but they go out and spread the disease, yes, they could be held liable for others' illnesses.

People who are asymptomatic don't know they are infected, so can't be held liable. If they have symptoms, that's different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the discussion should be reframed a little bit to place the focus on pushy employers who will take advantage of Trump’s “open up” bullying. If employers order employees back to the office, then those employees can’t be blamed. But employees in the pvt sector have certain rights relating to join together to protest unacceptable working conditions.

Let the lawsuits begin!! If employers force workers back and those workers get infected, watch out!! The lawyers will be piling on fighting each other over the lawsuits, and there will be zillions of them.

Why stop there? Why not lawsuits against the individual spreader?

You'd have to be able to prove that a single individual was responsible for the infection of another individual. If that's possible, then yes, that person could be sued for negligence or something like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

Even a third grader could explain the basic differences between HIV and this.

Go ahead, explain. I heard an expert, from Harvard, no less, say this on the radio the other night. There is no guarantee there will be a vaccine that works. None.

You heard a Harvard expert explain what, exactly? Of course no one can guarantee anything. But there are fundamental differences between the two viruses. HIV is a retrovirus. It essentially weaves “itself” into your DNA. Corona Virus, by contrast, is not a retrovirus. Much easier to vaccinate against. Can you follow this, or do I have to take it down to a second grade level?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the discussion should be reframed a little bit to place the focus on pushy employers who will take advantage of Trump’s “open up” bullying. If employers order employees back to the office, then those employees can’t be blamed. But employees in the pvt sector have certain rights relating to join together to protest unacceptable working conditions.

Let the lawsuits begin!! If employers force workers back and those workers get infected, watch out!! The lawyers will be piling on fighting each other over the lawsuits, and there will be zillions of them.

Why stop there? Why not lawsuits against the individual spreader?

You'd have to be able to prove that a single individual was responsible for the infection of another individual. If that's possible, then yes, that person could be sued for negligence or something like that.

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. But it’s ‘murica, land of a million lawsuits a minute.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

Even a third grader could explain the basic differences between HIV and this.

Ehh you could make the same case with the flu. There’s a vaccine but still multiple strains of it.

It’s much better than nothing, no?

As long as it’s not forced on the entire population or else you can’t go to work, travel, etc, I’m all for it.

But they better not force everyone to take it. I’m not anti-vaxx but those things are far from perfect.

We'll have to see if a vaccine can be developed that is effective. That remains to be seen. You have to give the vaccine to a person, and that person has to develop enough of an immune response to fight off infection with covid19. And the vaccine can't cause terrible side effects or no one will take it, except people at extremely high risk of dying of covid19.

I hope a vaccine is created soon that works for everyone and has no side effects. I think that's very unlikely, but who knows? In the meantime, I think it's wishful thinking to depend on the development of an effective vaccine to end this pandemic. It can end before a vaccine is created if we make fundamental changes in our society. If people don't want to do that, then many more people will die of this virus before either a vaccine is developed or it burns its way through the population. I'm willing to endure fundamental changes to save lives. I don't want my elderly relatives to be sacrificed to this virus. I love them and would be very depressed if they died. That would affect my productivity for a long, long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the discussion should be reframed a little bit to place the focus on pushy employers who will take advantage of Trump’s “open up” bullying. If employers order employees back to the office, then those employees can’t be blamed. But employees in the pvt sector have certain rights relating to join together to protest unacceptable working conditions.

Let the lawsuits begin!! If employers force workers back and those workers get infected, watch out!! The lawyers will be piling on fighting each other over the lawsuits, and there will be zillions of them.

Why stop there? Why not lawsuits against the individual spreader?

I think you could sue someone who knowingly spreads the disease. If someone has been diagnosed and ordered to stay home, but they go out and spread the disease, yes, they could be held liable for others' illnesses.

People who are asymptomatic don't know they are infected, so can't be held liable. If they have symptoms, that's different.

I still see potential causes of action against asymptomatic spreaders. Tougher to prove? Sure. But doable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the discussion should be reframed a little bit to place the focus on pushy employers who will take advantage of Trump’s “open up” bullying. If employers order employees back to the office, then those employees can’t be blamed. But employees in the pvt sector have certain rights relating to join together to protest unacceptable working conditions.

Let the lawsuits begin!! If employers force workers back and those workers get infected, watch out!! The lawyers will be piling on fighting each other over the lawsuits, and there will be zillions of them.

Why stop there? Why not lawsuits against the individual spreader?

I think you could sue someone who knowingly spreads the disease. If someone has been diagnosed and ordered to stay home, but they go out and spread the disease, yes, they could be held liable for others' illnesses.

People who are asymptomatic don't know they are infected, so can't be held liable. If they have symptoms, that's different.

Can we sue all politicians and media celebrities who opposed Trump's travel restrictions from China and Europe?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

Even a third grader could explain the basic differences between HIV and this.

Go ahead, explain. I heard an expert, from Harvard, no less, say this on the radio the other night. There is no guarantee there will be a vaccine that works. None.

You heard a Harvard expert explain what, exactly? Of course no one can guarantee anything. But there are fundamental differences between the two viruses. HIV is a retrovirus. It essentially weaves “itself” into your DNA. Corona Virus, by contrast, is not a retrovirus. Much easier to vaccinate against. Can you follow this, or do I have to take it down to a second grade level?

Pull your head out of your ass. You're easier to understand that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

Even a third grader could explain the basic differences between HIV and this.

Ehh you could make the same case with the flu. There’s a vaccine but still multiple strains of it.

It’s much better than nothing, no?

As long as it’s not forced on the entire population or else you can’t go to work, travel, etc, I’m all for it.

But they better not force everyone to take it. I’m not anti-vaxx but those things are far from perfect.

We'll have to see if a vaccine can be developed that is effective. That remains to be seen. You have to give the vaccine to a person, and that person has to develop enough of an immune response to fight off infection with covid19. And the vaccine can't cause terrible side effects or no one will take it, except people at extremely high risk of dying of covid19.

I hope a vaccine is created soon that works for everyone and has no side effects. I think that's very unlikely, but who knows? In the meantime, I think it's wishful thinking to depend on the development of an effective vaccine to end this pandemic. It can end before a vaccine is created if we make fundamental changes in our society. If people don't want to do that, then many more people will die of this virus before either a vaccine is developed or it burns its way through the population. I'm willing to endure fundamental changes to save lives. I don't want my elderly relatives to be sacrificed to this virus. I love them and would be very depressed if they died. That would affect my productivity for a long, long time.

What fundamental changes? Would these changes be reasonably possible for people who don’t live in spacious houses and can telework?

[Anonymous]

I wonder if part of the rush to open (mostly by conservatives) is because of the paradigm shift that will happen when huge numbers of people have no money or are essential but expendable and start protesting conditions. Something like this exposes the major vulnerabilities in our society ie lack of or highly overpriced medical care, need to increase wages or possibly even a universal income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that there must be someone in the Trump administration who believes that summer weather will mitigate the contagiousness of the virus. The science on that is mixed, at best, with more scientists seeming to think it will not make a material difference. In any event, absent a vaccine (and there won't be one for 12-18 months), the virus would come roaring back in or around September. But I honestly don't know what to do about a collapsing economy that seems to have little more going for it now than sales of food, toilet paper, and curbside delivery. The elites ("ruling" class) will always do whatever it takes to remain on top of the socioeconomic pyramid as they see it.

You are making a HUGE assumption that a vaccine will be developed that will be effective at protecting people from infection with covid19.

That's an enormous assumption because some diseases can't be prevented by vaccination. In 40 years, no effective vaccine against HIV has been developed. Yes, there are treatments that keep HIV infection at bay, but there's no vaccine and no cure.

There may never be an effective vaccine against covid19, so you can't count on a vaccine to end this pandemic. And you definitely can't count on a vaccine in the next year or so. Contact tracing, isolation and social distancing are all we have right now to fight this pandemic. Oh, and testing, testing, testing.

Even a third grader could explain the basic differences between HIV and this.

Go ahead, explain. I heard an expert, from Harvard, no less, say this on the radio the other night. There is no guarantee there will be a vaccine that works. None.

You heard a Harvard expert explain what, exactly? Of course no one can guarantee anything. But there are fundamental differences between the two viruses. HIV is a retrovirus. It essentially weaves “itself” into your DNA. Corona Virus, by contrast, is not a retrovirus. Much easier to vaccinate against. Can you follow this, or do I have to take it down to a second grade level?

Pull your head out of your ass. You're easier to understand that way.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say.