8/27 APS Work Session—Elementary Boundaries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well people are right that ATS is not magic. It’s just a self selected student body. That’s true. It’s also why it can’t be replicated in a non lottery program. So basically it takes kids destined to succeed then claims credit for their scores. Keep it or don’t. But don’t kid yourself that it has some secret sauce.

With that logic, all of the option schools should always be at the top performers.

This point has already been addressed in this thread. If you really care, go read.

I’m not sure I buy the “other option schools are more or less neighborhood schools” argument. You’re still working with self-selecting parents who know enough about the system to opt for an alternative to the neighborhood school. Unless you’re saying that kids whose parents try for ATS are inherently more likely to succeed than other kids?

That’s not the only point that was made. Lazy reading is not worth responding to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well people are right that ATS is not magic. It’s just a self selected student body. That’s true. It’s also why it can’t be replicated in a non lottery program. So basically it takes kids destined to succeed then claims credit for their scores. Keep it or don’t. But don’t kid yourself that it has some secret sauce.

With that logic, all of the option schools should always be at the top performers.

This point has already been addressed in this thread. If you really care, go read.

I’m not sure I buy the “other option schools are more or less neighborhood schools” argument. You’re still working with self-selecting parents who know enough about the system to opt for an alternative to the neighborhood school. Unless you’re saying that kids whose parents try for ATS are inherently more likely to succeed than other kids?

Look, the closest comparison for a school with no attendance zone that people had to be “in the know” about was ASFS. Less so as time went on, but that’s more comparable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well people are right that ATS is not magic. It’s just a self selected student body. That’s true. It’s also why it can’t be replicated in a non lottery program. So basically it takes kids destined to succeed then claims credit for their scores. Keep it or don’t. But don’t kid yourself that it has some secret sauce.

With that logic, all of the option schools should always be at the top performers.

This point has already been addressed in this thread. If you really care, go read.

I’m not sure I buy the “other option schools are more or less neighborhood schools” argument. You’re still working with self-selecting parents who know enough about the system to opt for an alternative to the neighborhood school. Unless you’re saying that kids whose parents try for ATS are inherently more likely to succeed than other kids?

Look, the closest comparison for a school with no attendance zone that people had to be “in the know” about was ASFS. Less so as time went on, but that’s more comparable.

Huh? Up until very recently, people who lived in. The Key zone could opt into either school, which everyone in the area knew and lots of people did not because they thought ASFS was a superior school, but because it was more convenient for them or they didn’t want immersion. It’s draw was nothing like ATS for gunner parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well people are right that ATS is not magic. It’s just a self selected student body. That’s true. It’s also why it can’t be replicated in a non lottery program. So basically it takes kids destined to succeed then claims credit for their scores. Keep it or don’t. But don’t kid yourself that it has some secret sauce.

With that logic, all of the option schools should always be at the top performers.

This point has already been addressed in this thread. If you really care, go read.

I’m not sure I buy the “other option schools are more or less neighborhood schools” argument. You’re still working with self-selecting parents who know enough about the system to opt for an alternative to the neighborhood school. Unless you’re saying that kids whose parents try for ATS are inherently more likely to succeed than other kids?

Look, the closest comparison for a school with no attendance zone that people had to be “in the know” about was ASFS. Less so as time went on, but that’s more comparable.

Huh? Up until very recently, people who lived in. The Key zone could opt into either school, which everyone in the area knew and lots of people did not because they thought ASFS was a superior school, but because it was more convenient for them or they didn’t want immersion. It’s draw was nothing like ATS for gunner parents.

Maybe, but I’m guessing that some parents were taken in by the word “Science.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well people are right that ATS is not magic. It’s just a self selected student body. That’s true. It’s also why it can’t be replicated in a non lottery program. So basically it takes kids destined to succeed then claims credit for their scores. Keep it or don’t. But don’t kid yourself that it has some secret sauce.

With that logic, all of the option schools should always be at the top performers.

This point has already been addressed in this thread. If you really care, go read.

I’m not sure I buy the “other option schools are more or less neighborhood schools” argument. You’re still working with self-selecting parents who know enough about the system to opt for an alternative to the neighborhood school. Unless you’re saying that kids whose parents try for ATS are inherently more likely to succeed than other kids?

That’s not the only point that was made. Lazy reading is not worth responding to.

“Lazy reading is not worth responding to” aka I don’t know how to answer so I’ll just insult you instead. Strong argument.

[Anonymous]

So when is Key moving? I hope by next year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So when is Key moving? I hope by next year.

For fall 2021 when Reed opens, assuming they actually manage to move it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So when is Key moving? I hope by next year.

For fall 2021 when Reed opens, assuming they actually manage to move it.

OK.

[Anonymous]

I think they will move Key. I think it will move to the ATS site. The ATS site is a totally acceptable immersion site- it is closer to a Spanish speaking population than the current site. It is used to hosting an option school.
I think they will move ATS to either Tuckahoe/Nottingham/ or Reed. Reed is a 1.5 miles from ATS. Nottingham and Tuckahoe are each 2.5miles. None of those are far enough to really make a difference. (Sure- they might make a difference for individual families who have grown accustomed to the location at ATS- or who work in Ballston, or have other kids in a daycare close by- what have you. But I don't seriously think it is going to change the profile of who applies to ATS.)
Which of those schools gets ATS? If they go for 'stability' it is Reed- b/c that will have the least impact on any school population. Move Key to ATS, move ATS to Reed- let ATS grow, the current ASFS goes to Key, with some of that zone closest to ASFS going to ASFS, plus the neighborhood around ASFS and the Ashlawn tail. Ashlawn picks up part of McKinley to relieve McKinley- we are done and no school really looks all that different.

I know ATS is not in the IPP- but I would be surprised if the school board actually votes to phase it out- there is no real incentive too (other than it is against current educational research.) Might they replace it with IB? Possibly- but the process of getting a school certified as an IB early years school is long and expensive. Maybe they will start ATS down that path- but I kind of doubt it.

I don't think they will move Key immersion to Carlin Springs. If you look at the map- that would mean the Southwestern portion of the county would have three option schools in a row- Claremont, Campbell, Carlin Springs. That leaves a huge number of kids- who don't have great transportation, without an obvious neighborhood school. The only real way I see Carlin Springs becoming immersion is if they move Campbell and make Campbell a neighborhood school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think they will move Key. I think it will move to the ATS site. The ATS site is a totally acceptable immersion site- it is closer to a Spanish speaking population than the current site. It is used to hosting an option school.
I think they will move ATS to either Tuckahoe/Nottingham/ or Reed. Reed is a 1.5 miles from ATS. Nottingham and Tuckahoe are each 2.5miles. None of those are far enough to really make a difference. (Sure- they might make a difference for individual families who have grown accustomed to the location at ATS- or who work in Ballston, or have other kids in a daycare close by- what have you. But I don't seriously think it is going to change the profile of who applies to ATS.)
Which of those schools gets ATS? If they go for 'stability' it is Reed- b/c that will have the least impact on any school population. Move Key to ATS, move ATS to Reed- let ATS grow, the current ASFS goes to Key, with some of that zone closest to ASFS going to ASFS, plus the neighborhood around ASFS and the Ashlawn tail. Ashlawn picks up part of McKinley to relieve McKinley- we are done and no school really looks all that different.

I know ATS is not in the IPP- but I would be surprised if the school board actually votes to phase it out- there is no real incentive too (other than it is against current educational research.) Might they replace it with IB? Possibly- but the process of getting a school certified as an IB early years school is long and expensive. Maybe they will start ATS down that path- but I kind of doubt it.

I don't think they will move Key immersion to Carlin Springs. If you look at the map- that would mean the Southwestern portion of the county would have three option schools in a row- Claremont, Campbell, Carlin Springs. That leaves a huge number of kids- who don't have great transportation, without an obvious neighborhood school. The only real way I see Carlin Springs becoming immersion is if they move Campbell and make Campbell a neighborhood school.

I like it. This would be an efficient, rational solution.

Let's see what we end up with given that the parents/school board/APS staff are not driven by efficiency or reason!

[Anonymous]

Reading through the last few pages I agree that the Swap was a distraction while the SA boundary process was going on but it was a distraction for APS. They didn't just show up to a couple PTA meetings at ASFS and Key while on break from their concentrated efforts into fixing the SA boundaries. At least one staff member spent a lot of time last summer preparing those August memos for the SB and the public when the Swap was announced versus working on SA boundaries. And even though the SB/APS didn't have any official public engagement over the Swap during the SA boundary process, they absolutely spent time engaging with and responding to the Key folks (who brought in reporters and threaten to sue, etc.). So the Swap was distracting because APS and the SB dragged themselves into a fight with Key right before starting SA boundary process, which we all know was a complete disaster. No one should think that announcing the Swap before the SA boundary process was some sort of brilliant move on the SB/APS' part.

And now where are we? Key dug its heels in that it did not want to move to ASFS, so it's safe to assume it will not want to move to another location. Maybe if the SB/APS had approached Key offline and gotten their input upfront about location, etc., things could have progressed more smoothly. But here we are with immersion not wanting to leave Key and an area that desperately needs more neighborhood seats. If immersion doesn't move, APS will likely split the Key/ASFS zone between 4 schools--- which will be a disaster (although somewhat of just deserts for those who live in the area and lobbied for the Swap--I know folks will say no one supported the Swap but there were many at ASFS who absolutely wanted their preferred location (Key) and their beloved "science" school (ASFS)). It will be interesting to see how the BS/APS now tries to fix ALL the boundaries, move option schools AND deal with high school boundaries at the same time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading through the last few pages I agree that the Swap was a distraction while the SA boundary process was going on but it was a distraction for APS. They didn't just show up to a couple PTA meetings at ASFS and Key while on break from their concentrated efforts into fixing the SA boundaries. At least one staff member spent a lot of time last summer preparing those August memos for the SB and the public when the Swap was announced versus working on SA boundaries. And even though the SB/APS didn't have any official public engagement over the Swap during the SA boundary process, they absolutely spent time engaging with and responding to the Key folks (who brought in reporters and threaten to sue, etc.). So the Swap was distracting because APS and the SB dragged themselves into a fight with Key right before starting SA boundary process, which we all know was a complete disaster. No one should think that announcing the Swap before the SA boundary process was some sort of brilliant move on the SB/APS' part.

And now where are we? Key dug its heels in that it did not want to move to ASFS, so it's safe to assume it will not want to move to another location. Maybe if the SB/APS had approached Key offline and gotten their input upfront about location, etc., things could have progressed more smoothly. But here we are with immersion not wanting to leave Key and an area that desperately needs more neighborhood seats. If immersion doesn't move, APS will likely split the Key/ASFS zone between 4 schools--- which will be a disaster (although somewhat of just deserts for those who live in the area and lobbied for the Swap--I know folks will say no one supported the Swap but there were many at ASFS who absolutely wanted their preferred location (Key) and their beloved "science" school (ASFS)). It will be interesting to see how the BS/APS now tries to fix ALL the boundaries, move option schools AND deal with high school boundaries at the same time.

Completely agree.

For high school, I like how BK at the work session said "what if we don't tweak boundaries and just let more transfers into W-L?" Regardless of whether that is a good idea or not, I think the SB and the staff will be trying to find more "creative" solutions in order to avoid boundary changes as much as they can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading through the last few pages I agree that the Swap was a distraction while the SA boundary process was going on but it was a distraction for APS. They didn't just show up to a couple PTA meetings at ASFS and Key while on break from their concentrated efforts into fixing the SA boundaries. At least one staff member spent a lot of time last summer preparing those August memos for the SB and the public when the Swap was announced versus working on SA boundaries. And even though the SB/APS didn't have any official public engagement over the Swap during the SA boundary process, they absolutely spent time engaging with and responding to the Key folks (who brought in reporters and threaten to sue, etc.). So the Swap was distracting because APS and the SB dragged themselves into a fight with Key right before starting SA boundary process, which we all know was a complete disaster. No one should think that announcing the Swap before the SA boundary process was some sort of brilliant move on the SB/APS' part.

And now where are we? Key dug its heels in that it did not want to move to ASFS, so it's safe to assume it will not want to move to another location. Maybe if the SB/APS had approached Key offline and gotten their input upfront about location, etc., things could have progressed more smoothly. But here we are with immersion not wanting to leave Key and an area that desperately needs more neighborhood seats. If immersion doesn't move, APS will likely split the Key/ASFS zone between 4 schools--- which will be a disaster (although somewhat of just deserts for those who live in the area and lobbied for the Swap--I know folks will say no one supported the Swap but there were many at ASFS who absolutely wanted their preferred location (Key) and their beloved "science" school (ASFS)). It will be interesting to see how the BS/APS now tries to fix ALL the boundaries, move option schools AND deal with high school boundaries at the same time.

Completely agree.

For high school, I like how BK at the work session said "what if we don't tweak boundaries and just let more transfers into W-L?" Regardless of whether that is a good idea or not, I think the SB and the staff will be trying to find more "creative" solutions in order to avoid boundary changes as much as they can.

How’s that going to work? It won’t, unless they set aside transfers just from Wakefield, where the crowding will hit hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading through the last few pages I agree that the Swap was a distraction while the SA boundary process was going on but it was a distraction for APS. They didn't just show up to a couple PTA meetings at ASFS and Key while on break from their concentrated efforts into fixing the SA boundaries. At least one staff member spent a lot of time last summer preparing those August memos for the SB and the public when the Swap was announced versus working on SA boundaries. And even though the SB/APS didn't have any official public engagement over the Swap during the SA boundary process, they absolutely spent time engaging with and responding to the Key folks (who brought in reporters and threaten to sue, etc.). So the Swap was distracting because APS and the SB dragged themselves into a fight with Key right before starting SA boundary process, which we all know was a complete disaster. No one should think that announcing the Swap before the SA boundary process was some sort of brilliant move on the SB/APS' part.

And now where are we? Key dug its heels in that it did not want to move to ASFS, so it's safe to assume it will not want to move to another location. Maybe if the SB/APS had approached Key offline and gotten their input upfront about location, etc., things could have progressed more smoothly. But here we are with immersion not wanting to leave Key and an area that desperately needs more neighborhood seats. If immersion doesn't move, APS will likely split the Key/ASFS zone between 4 schools--- which will be a disaster (although somewhat of just deserts for those who live in the area and lobbied for the Swap--I know folks will say no one supported the Swap but there were many at ASFS who absolutely wanted their preferred location (Key) and their beloved "science" school (ASFS)). It will be interesting to see how the BS/APS now tries to fix ALL the boundaries, move option schools AND deal with high school boundaries at the same time.

Completely agree.

For high school, I like how BK at the work session said "what if we don't tweak boundaries and just let more transfers into W-L?" Regardless of whether that is a good idea or not, I think the SB and the staff will be trying to find more "creative" solutions in order to avoid boundary changes as much as they can.

How’s that going to work? It won’t, unless they set aside transfers just from Wakefield, where the crowding will hit hard.

I think they may just try something like that. They are looking for any way to avoid the pain of boundary changes, despite all the times in the work session they patted themselves on the back saying "we're getting good at this."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading through the last few pages I agree that the Swap was a distraction while the SA boundary process was going on but it was a distraction for APS. They didn't just show up to a couple PTA meetings at ASFS and Key while on break from their concentrated efforts into fixing the SA boundaries. At least one staff member spent a lot of time last summer preparing those August memos for the SB and the public when the Swap was announced versus working on SA boundaries. And even though the SB/APS didn't have any official public engagement over the Swap during the SA boundary process, they absolutely spent time engaging with and responding to the Key folks (who brought in reporters and threaten to sue, etc.). So the Swap was distracting because APS and the SB dragged themselves into a fight with Key right before starting SA boundary process, which we all know was a complete disaster. No one should think that announcing the Swap before the SA boundary process was some sort of brilliant move on the SB/APS' part.

And now where are we? Key dug its heels in that it did not want to move to ASFS, so it's safe to assume it will not want to move to another location. Maybe if the SB/APS had approached Key offline and gotten their input upfront about location, etc., things could have progressed more smoothly. But here we are with immersion not wanting to leave Key and an area that desperately needs more neighborhood seats. If immersion doesn't move, APS will likely split the Key/ASFS zone between 4 schools--- which will be a disaster (although somewhat of just deserts for those who live in the area and lobbied for the Swap--I know folks will say no one supported the Swap but there were many at ASFS who absolutely wanted their preferred location (Key) and their beloved "science" school (ASFS)). It will be interesting to see how the BS/APS now tries to fix ALL the boundaries, move option schools AND deal with high school boundaries at the same time.

Completely agree.

For high school, I like how BK at the work session said "what if we don't tweak boundaries and just let more transfers into W-L?" Regardless of whether that is a good idea or not, I think the SB and the staff will be trying to find more "creative" solutions in order to avoid boundary changes as much as they can.

How’s that going to work? It won’t, unless they set aside transfers just from Wakefield, where the crowding will hit hard.

I think they may just try something like that. They are looking for any way to avoid the pain of boundary changes, despite all the times in the work session they patted themselves on the back saying "we're getting good at this."

They are going to have to move immersion from Key or take a carving knife to the boundaries in Rosslyn, Courthouse, and Lyon Village. Neither scenario is going to be pretty.