Can achievement gap be closed with extra tutoring?

[Anonymous]

dc still has textbooks and physical books, I've seen them at my friends house. plus all their junior great books stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ppl buying in NW DC are a similar cohort as those buying in Bethesda. Nowadays they can make a direct comparison of those schools and decide for themselves. The schools are trending in opposite directions. I know what I would decide.

How is a comparison of public schools for the children of rich people in Bethesda vs. NW DC relevant to a thread about the closing the achievement gap?

Eureka! MCPS can close the huge achievement gap but having all the smarties move out!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is extra tutoring and intervention not being made available to groups that are falling behind?

If extra tutoring that is provided by companies like Sylvan Learning Center, C2, Huntington, Kumon, Kaplan, Dr. Li, APlus etc can help the Asian-American and White kids do well academically, should we not allow poor HI and AA students to have access to such tutoring? Maybe all FARMS eligible students also get this opportunity.

Has MCPS thought about providing tutoring and coaching services (for free or at subsidized costs) to the lowest performers or students who want to get accelerated instruction? Perhaps this tutoring can happen during weekends and during summer and other breaks. If they can also provide transportation and snacks, many parents and students can benefit.

Obviously, MCPS by itself is not able to bridge the achievement gap, but, how long will they not do anything for these students?

It's costly, that's why. Plus they wouldn't really engage in it, maybe from a day care perspective they would, but they're not very engaged in their education right now.

Then on the other side of the barbell you have disappointed educated families ramping up their homeschooling and tutoring for their bored children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Ppl buying in NW DC are a similar cohort as those buying in Bethesda. Nowadays they can make a direct comparison of those schools and decide for themselves. The schools are trending in opposite directions. I know what I would decide.

How is a comparison of public schools for the children of rich people in Bethesda vs. NW DC relevant to a thread about the closing the achievement gap?

Eureka! MCPS can close the huge achievement gap but having all the smarties move out!

"Smart" and "rich" are not synonyms, although people often do seem to believe that they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Since ESOL is a special service, perhaps ESOL intervention should have a fee. Remove ESOL from the free education conversation. Unless there is a financial burden no one would have any incentive to learn the language easy way.

Special ed is a special service too. Gifted ed also a special service. Fees for special ed and gifted ed! Right?

Alternatively, we can stop with the idea that public schools are fee-for-service. They're not.

+1 Also, unlike access to magnet programs, access to ELL services is a legal right.

Just as access to education itself is a legal right.

What other countries in this world allow people to walk in illegally, have no papers, go to school, get free meals, AND get free language services so they can become bilingual? How stupid is our government

Are legal citizens getting free language courses in elementary school so they too can be bilingual?

[Anonymous]

Nope

[Anonymous]

What other countries in this world allow people to walk in illegally, have no papers, go to school, get free meals, AND get free language services so they can become bilingual? How stupid is our government

The entire European Union, to start.

[Anonymous]

ESOL teacher here. Out of my 40 students, 32 of them are U.S. citizens. This is the case from year to year for the most part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What other countries in this world allow people to walk in illegally, have no papers, go to school, get free meals, AND get free language services so they can become bilingual? How stupid is our government

The entire European Union, to start.

Actually there is no European school that gives free language classes in their own native language to foreigners that I know. To legal or illegal citizens. They are all taught an extra language, but there are no kids being pulled to learn French in France or German in Germany school. Whether they speak English, Spanish, Korean, etc.. They need to learn on their own outside of school or just by immersion. They do not have a form of ESOL in Europe, paid for by schools that I am aware of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What other countries in this world allow people to walk in illegally, have no papers, go to school, get free meals, AND get free language services so they can become bilingual? How stupid is our government

The entire European Union, to start.

Actually there is no European school that gives free language classes in their own native language to foreigners that I know. To legal or illegal citizens. They are all taught an extra language, but there are no kids being pulled to learn French in France or German in Germany school. Whether they speak English, Spanish, Korean, etc.. They need to learn on their own outside of school or just by immersion. They do not have a form of ESOL in Europe, paid for by schools that I am aware of.

Germany puts German language learners in "welcome classes" that do EXACTLY that. EXACTLY that. They teach kids German, in Germany, before mainstreaming them into German-language classrooms.

The entire EU allows people to "walk in illegally, have no papers (claim asylum), go to school, and get free meals. It is codified in the European Convention on Human Rights. Right to asylum. Right to education. Right to food.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What other countries in this world allow people to walk in illegally, have no papers, go to school, get free meals, AND get free language services so they can become bilingual? How stupid is our government

The entire European Union, to start.

Actually there is no European school that gives free language classes in their own native language to foreigners that I know. To legal or illegal citizens. They are all taught an extra language, but there are no kids being pulled to learn French in France or German in Germany school. Whether they speak English, Spanish, Korean, etc.. They need to learn on their own outside of school or just by immersion. They do not have a form of ESOL in Europe, paid for by schools that I am aware of.

Germany puts German language learners in "welcome classes" that do EXACTLY that. EXACTLY that. They teach kids German, in Germany, before mainstreaming them into German-language classrooms.

The entire EU allows people to "walk in illegally, have no papers (claim asylum), go to school, and get free meals. It is codified in the European Convention on Human Rights. Right to asylum. Right to education. Right to food.

I've lived in Germany and I can confirm that kids are placed in language immersion schools for several months or years (depending on the student) before being mainstreamed into German schools. This is paid for by the government, although most people from DMV probably wouldn't think much of the quality of instruction or of the fact that they keep all of these German learners totally separated from the other students. There's usually no interaction at all. (It would be kind of like keeping all the SN kids in one classroom in the US.) I personally know someone who started in one of those schools and ended up insisting on getting a personal exception to mainstream earlier, before learning more than just a few words of German, because they were picking up one of the immigrant languages much more than actual German due to the other kids talking it all the time. They muddled through and eventually figured it out in a normal school, but definitely had ambition and intelligence way beyond what most students possess. The students don't just learn language in those classes, it's also the culture, main customs and traditions, and usually they simply can't move over until they reach a certain level.

However, you need to understand that Germany also has one of the strongest and most strict student tracking systems in any educational system in the world. From a relatively young age, kids are sorted and tracked according to their demonstrated ability. Most of the refugees and immigrants end up in the lowest tracks. Having different expectations and opportunities removes a lot of the behavioral issues in the schools, lowers teacher frustration, etc. They simply aren't trying to teach calculus to a bunch of kids struggling with basic math operations, etc etc. The kids in the lowest track get a lot more help with basic math and literacy subjects, take less academic electives, and almost always end up in something like a trades school. Which most are happy with since they learn practical skills and end up employable that way. And only the kids in the top track (where behavioral issues are very rare) end up eligible for university study (which is also basically free in comparison with the US). In this way, many German kids are totally insulated from the immigrants. So yes, Germany is quite welcoming when it comes to refugees and undocumented immigrants, but not at the direct expense of the German students.

[Anonymous]

I've lived in Germany and I can confirm that kids are placed in language immersion schools for several months or years (depending on the student) before being mainstreamed into German schools. This is paid for by the government, although most people from DMV probably wouldn't think much of the quality of instruction or of the fact that they keep all of these German learners totally separated from the other students. There's usually no interaction at all. (It would be kind of like keeping all the SN kids in one classroom in the US.) I personally know someone who started in one of those schools and ended up insisting on getting a personal exception to mainstream earlier, before learning more than just a few words of German, because they were picking up one of the immigrant languages much more than actual German due to the other kids talking it all the time. They muddled through and eventually figured it out in a normal school, but definitely had ambition and intelligence way beyond what most students possess. The students don't just learn language in those classes, it's also the culture, main customs and traditions, and usually they simply can't move over until they reach a certain level.

However, you need to understand that Germany also has one of the strongest and most strict student tracking systems in any educational system in the world. From a relatively young age, kids are sorted and tracked according to their demonstrated ability. Most of the refugees and immigrants end up in the lowest tracks. Having different expectations and opportunities removes a lot of the behavioral issues in the schools, lowers teacher frustration, etc. They simply aren't trying to teach calculus to a bunch of kids struggling with basic math operations, etc etc. The kids in the lowest track get a lot more help with basic math and literacy subjects, take less academic electives, and almost always end up in something like a trades school. Which most are happy with since they learn practical skills and end up employable that way. And only the kids in the top track (where behavioral issues are very rare) end up eligible for university study (which is also basically free in comparison with the US). In this way, many German kids are totally insulated from the immigrants. So yes, Germany is quite welcoming when it comes to refugees and undocumented immigrants, but not at the direct expense of the German students.

Thanks for this context. There are elements of the German model (which is similar to an Eastern European model with which I'm personally familiar) that are an anathema to Americans. That includes strict tracking, which flies in the face of both American law (IDEA, ADA, LRE) but also our values about upward mobility and the potential of every child.

With that said, the discussion was about whether any other country in the world grants a right to an education, food, shelter, and target language instruction. The answer, of course, is yes.

[Anonymous]

The esol kids in our school are mostly non-US citizens. They're about 10% of the total grade.

They are corporate exec kids who relocated here, are bilingual or trilingual, and only spend a few months with a rotating ESOL specialist. They often move again in 3-4 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ESOL teacher here. Out of my 40 students, 32 of them are U.S. citizens. This is the case from year to year for the most part.

How can you know this if it is illegal to ask?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ESOL teacher here. Out of my 40 students, 32 of them are U.S. citizens. This is the case from year to year for the most part.

How can you know this if it is illegal to ask?

Are their parents US citizens? Very often these are the anchor kids.