Can achievement gap be closed with extra tutoring?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we could put all struggling students in a different classroom with ESOL support and extra aides - we would be able to do it cheaply. The whole school does not need ESOL or extra aides. Struggling students and disruptive students should not be in the regular classroom. It is as simple as that.

This is one big IDEA violation right here.

Children, including English language learners, those with learning disabilities (struggling students), and those with "disruptive" behavioral differences have a legal right to a least restrictive environment.

And you can also be white, wealthy and a fluent English speaker and still be a very disruptive student.

I think PP’s point was that while we can’t legally put all disruptive students into one classroom, or all ESOL students into one classroom, or all students struggling with academics into one classroom, it would probably (or at least be possibly) be better for student performance en mass to do this. I personally agree - it really does seem like classrooms are getting overrun with other issues and that the actual teaching part is lagging. And while the rates of SN seem to be skyrocketing at a pretty alarming rate for some mysterious reason or set of reasons, there are still more students without behavioral issues who shouldn’t have their educations derailed by some politicians’ misguided attempts at fairness.

At an absolute minimum, the law should be amended to specifically qualify that it should be the least restrictive environment such that no other student is adversely affected by the person being in the mainstream class. So pullouts for speech or physical therapy or reading support are fine, but disruptive behavior or students who can’t keep up in any subjects shouldn’t be something that’s mainstreamed.

And yes, of course you can be white and wealthy and still a behavioral problem to disrupt the class. They should be included in the class for behavioral issues. Not sure why anyone would think or suggest otherwise.

Our MCPS school does this. They have one classroom with a fancy name for all the IEP/504 kids and force all the kids in there that the can. It doesn't matter what your child has an IEP, once they have an IEP they are put in this classroom with lesser academics and lots of behavioral issues. It was an epic disaster for my child who was being hit regularly by another child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we could put all struggling students in a different classroom with ESOL support and extra aides - we would be able to do it cheaply. The whole school does not need ESOL or extra aides. Struggling students and disruptive students should not be in the regular classroom. It is as simple as that.

This is one big IDEA violation right here.

Children, including English language learners, those with learning disabilities (struggling students), and those with "disruptive" behavioral differences have a legal right to a least restrictive environment.

And you can also be white, wealthy and a fluent English speaker and still be a very disruptive student.

I think PP’s point was that while we can’t legally put all disruptive students into one classroom, or all ESOL students into one classroom, or all students struggling with academics into one classroom, it would probably (or at least be possibly) be better for student performance en mass to do this. I personally agree - it really does seem like classrooms are getting overrun with other issues and that the actual teaching part is lagging. And while the rates of SN seem to be skyrocketing at a pretty alarming rate for some mysterious reason or set of reasons, there are still more students without behavioral issues who shouldn’t have their educations derailed by some politicians’ misguided attempts at fairness.

At an absolute minimum, the law should be amended to specifically qualify that it should be the least restrictive environment such that no other student is adversely affected by the person being in the mainstream class. So pullouts for speech or physical therapy or reading support are fine, but disruptive behavior or students who can’t keep up in any subjects shouldn’t be something that’s mainstreamed.

And yes, of course you can be white and wealthy and still a behavioral problem to disrupt the class. They should be included in the class for behavioral issues. Not sure why anyone would think or suggest otherwise.

Our MCPS school does this. They have one classroom with a fancy name for all the IEP/504 kids and force all the kids in there that the can. It doesn't matter what your child has an IEP, once they have an IEP they are put in this classroom with lesser academics and lots of behavioral issues. It was an epic disaster for my child who was being hit regularly by another child.

I don't think that anyone could argue that it's fair or reasonable to put kids who don't disturb others in with kids who do disturb others, whether that's in a mainstream class or a 'special' class. It's really horrible that any child should be hit by another child at school, let alone that it should be considered not a big deal and happen regularly.

And as for the "lesser academics", I think this is what most kids are getting these days. The academic standard is lowered dramatically due to the few kids in apparently almost every class with behavioral problems, the English learners who sometimes don't even understand the assignment let alone know how to do it, and the other kids struggling a lot with academic work across the board.

The education system needs a lot of work, no doubt. But I think the first step is realizing that the "least restrictive environment" (AKA "cheap") stuff just isn't working. For anyone. It's also clearly not appropriate to put a kid who needs speech therapy twice a week in with a bunch of kids who are yelling or throwing things or hitting people though, so having just one 'IEP' class is not the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:we never sent in a birth certificate when starting ES. just the health forms and a bill.

I literally registered my youngest this week and they absolutely asked for a birth certificate. My other options were an affadavit from someone there for his birth or a doctor's note.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:we never sent in a birth certificate when starting ES. just the health forms and a bill.

I literally registered my youngest this week and they absolutely asked for a birth certificate. My other options were an affadavit from someone there for his birth or a doctor's note.

Yep, we have to do it in California too. I guess there's an exception process if you don't have a birth cert, but they do a big song and dance about how it's required documentation and it's not possible to be enrolled without it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:we never sent in a birth certificate when starting ES. just the health forms and a bill.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The achievement gap will never be closed

Societies will always have lower middle and upper classes and more importantly need them to function

Schools on military bases close the achievement gap.

It is all about families and what they prioritize.

[Anonymous]

I bet the longer we stick with Lang’s Curriculum 2.0, the longer the achievement gap will grow and the base level for all will fall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:we never sent in a birth certificate when starting ES. just the health forms and a bill.

+1

I provided a birth certificate for both of my kids when I enrolled them, as proof of age.

Verification of Student's Age (5 to 21)
Documents below are listed in order of preference. Official documents issued by governmental entities located in the United States of America should be used in place of documents issued by entities outside of the United States of America whenever possible.

Birth certificate
Passport/visa
Physician's certificate
Church certificate
Hospital certificate
Parent's affidavit
Birth Registration
Other legal or notarized identification

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/info/enroll/proofs.aspx

[Anonymous]

No birth certificate needed at our K orientation last month. Nor asked for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we could put all struggling students in a different classroom with ESOL support and extra aides - we would be able to do it cheaply. The whole school does not need ESOL or extra aides. Struggling students and disruptive students should not be in the regular classroom. It is as simple as that.

This is one big IDEA violation right here.

Children, including English language learners, those with learning disabilities (struggling students), and those with "disruptive" behavioral differences have a legal right to a least restrictive environment.

And you can also be white, wealthy and a fluent English speaker and still be a very disruptive student.

I think PP’s point was that while we can’t legally put all disruptive students into one classroom, or all ESOL students into one classroom, or all students struggling with academics into one classroom, it would probably (or at least be possibly) be better for student performance en mass to do this. I personally agree - it really does seem like classrooms are getting overrun with other issues and that the actual teaching part is lagging. And while the rates of SN seem to be skyrocketing at a pretty alarming rate for some mysterious reason or set of reasons, there are still more students without behavioral issues who shouldn’t have their educations derailed by some politicians’ misguided attempts at fairness.

At an absolute minimum, the law should be amended to specifically qualify that it should be the least restrictive environment such that no other student is adversely affected by the person being in the mainstream class. So pullouts for speech or physical therapy or reading support are fine, but disruptive behavior or students who can’t keep up in any subjects shouldn’t be something that’s mainstreamed.

And yes, of course you can be white and wealthy and still a behavioral problem to disrupt the class. They should be included in the class for behavioral issues. Not sure why anyone would think or suggest otherwise.

The justification for least restrictive environment is because there is a mountain of evidence that children who are struggling academically do a lot better when they have peer models. Obviously this is within a standard deviation because mcps does have schools for children who are struggling with being a general education environment. But a classroom where all 'hard to teach kids" is not a great solution and it would increase the achievement gap.

It's also very important to recognize that having a IEP doesn't automatically make you disruptive. Same as being ESOL, they are often very quiet because they are afraid to make a mistake.

I mean the what is the threshold for disruptive behavior? Not raising your hand and blurting out answers? Having temper tantrums? Yelling at a teacher or peers? Again you have plenty of neurotypical kids who struggle with good behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:we never sent in a birth certificate when starting ES. just the health forms and a bill.

+1

I provided a birth certificate for both of my kids when I enrolled them, as proof of age.

Verification of Student's Age (5 to 21)
Documents below are listed in order of preference. Official documents issued by governmental entities located in the United States of America should be used in place of documents issued by entities outside of the United States of America whenever possible.

Birth certificate
Passport/visa
Physician's certificate
Church certificate
Hospital certificate
Parent's affidavit
Birth Registration
Other legal or notarized identification

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/info/enroll/proofs.aspx

MCPS can’t even get a curriculum together and has been floundering for the past 5 years. Do you really think they are enforcing this?

We have SO MANY kids committing residency fraud at my ES. Our school barely has enough staff as it is. There is no way they can enforce all these requirements.

On one hand, they have these requirements, but on the other hand, they are required to accept any student who shows up (documented or undocumented).

Nobody asked for a birth certificate when we enrolled at our Focus school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS can’t even get a curriculum together and has been floundering for the past 5 years. Do you really think they are enforcing this?

We have SO MANY kids committing residency fraud at my ES. Our school barely has enough staff as it is. There is no way they can enforce all these requirements.

On one hand, they have these requirements, but on the other hand, they are required to accept any student who shows up (documented or undocumented).

Nobody asked for a birth certificate when we enrolled at our Focus school.

How is this relevant to the ESOL teacher's statement that US birth certificates are on file for many of her students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we could put all struggling students in a different classroom with ESOL support and extra aides - we would be able to do it cheaply. The whole school does not need ESOL or extra aides. Struggling students and disruptive students should not be in the regular classroom. It is as simple as that.

This is one big IDEA violation right here.

Children, including English language learners, those with learning disabilities (struggling students), and those with "disruptive" behavioral differences have a legal right to a least restrictive environment.

And you can also be white, wealthy and a fluent English speaker and still be a very disruptive student.

I think PP’s point was that while we can’t legally put all disruptive students into one classroom, or all ESOL students into one classroom, or all students struggling with academics into one classroom, it would probably (or at least be possibly) be better for student performance en mass to do this. I personally agree - it really does seem like classrooms are getting overrun with other issues and that the actual teaching part is lagging. And while the rates of SN seem to be skyrocketing at a pretty alarming rate for some mysterious reason or set of reasons, there are still more students without behavioral issues who shouldn’t have their educations derailed by some politicians’ misguided attempts at fairness.

At an absolute minimum, the law should be amended to specifically qualify that it should be the least restrictive environment such that no other student is adversely affected by the person being in the mainstream class. So pullouts for speech or physical therapy or reading support are fine, but disruptive behavior or students who can’t keep up in any subjects shouldn’t be something that’s mainstreamed.

And yes, of course you can be white and wealthy and still a behavioral problem to disrupt the class. They should be included in the class for behavioral issues. Not sure why anyone would think or suggest otherwise.

The justification for least restrictive environment is because there is a mountain of evidence that children who are struggling academically do a lot better when they have peer models. Obviously this is within a standard deviation because mcps does have schools for children who are struggling with being a general education environment. But a classroom where all 'hard to teach kids" is not a great solution and it would increase the achievement gap.

It's also very important to recognize that having a IEP doesn't automatically make you disruptive. Same as being ESOL, they are often very quiet because they are afraid to make a mistake.

I mean the what is the threshold for disruptive behavior? Not raising your hand and blurting out answers? Having temper tantrums? Yelling at a teacher or peers? Again you have plenty of neurotypical kids who struggle with good behavior.

DP

How about we start with physical assault? If you physically assault another student, you are out.

We have had two well-known incidents of a student assaulting another student at our ES. Two separate students. Multiple incidents, witnessed by staff or teachers. Both students are allowed back in the classroom.

I don’t care what color the kids are. They need some consequences and the other kids should be protected from them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

DP

How about we start with physical assault? If you physically assault another student, you are out.

We have had two well-known incidents of a student assaulting another student at our ES. Two separate students. Multiple incidents, witnessed by staff or teachers. Both students are allowed back in the classroom.

I don’t care what color the kids are. They need some consequences and the other kids should be protected from them.

Where do you go once you are out of the regular classroom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS can’t even get a curriculum together and has been floundering for the past 5 years. Do you really think they are enforcing this?

We have SO MANY kids committing residency fraud at my ES. Our school barely has enough staff as it is. There is no way they can enforce all these requirements.

On one hand, they have these requirements, but on the other hand, they are required to accept any student who shows up (documented or undocumented).

Nobody asked for a birth certificate when we enrolled at our Focus school.

How is this relevant to the ESOL teacher's statement that US birth certificates are on file for many of her students?

It’s not. I was responding to the other poster who said that documentation is required. It might be in theory, but it is not in practice.

I commented about the Focus school because we are at one of the schools that gets a huge rush at the end of August and often has to add a class at the last minute.