Jews and Germans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you were a regular German citizen who survived the war, would you be eager or even willing to admit that you had serious suspicions about what was happening to the Jews and did nothing to help? Or would it be easier for you to say that you'd heard certain rumors that you entirely discredited?

Let's think about this in current terms. If you are a regular Israeli or American Jew, are you eager or even willing to admit what is happening to the Palestinians? Are you not similarly guilty by omission?

This wouldn't actually be comparable, even if you limited to Israeli Jews, which you didn't. (Note that American Jews are Americans.)

However, there are some parts of German society that are quite grateful for the Israeli Jews vis a vis the Palestinians, because then every time the Holocaust comes up, they can say, "Oh yeah? Well, what about what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians?"

What parts of German society are you referring to, and what are you basing this on? Because I lived in Germany for 30 years and have never met anybody who would say such a thing, and I cannot imagine any of the Germans I know thinking it. The Germans I know find it very difficult to take a position in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, because while they recognize the injustices that are happening to the Palestinians, they find it very hard to take a position against Jews. They know it is a complicated situation, one for which Germany is partially responsible, and they would never compare the crimes against Palestinians with the Holocaust, much less use them to excuse it. The singularity of the Holocaust is a pretty strong dogma in Germany.

See the PP at 19:44.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been suggested to me the Jewish population was made the scapegoats for perceived or actual rise of affluence without inclusion within Germany?
I also dismissed this as racism but as an adult I am very confused when I am faced with a racist Jewish person.
Yes I'm AA. But never knew about the Jewish Black problems until I came to DC.and I hear it's real bad in NY. Any thoughts?

I am AA and married to Jewish person.
I know about the racism. It is tricky and hard to deal with. Difficult to explain it to my kids.
Almost all white ethnic minorities seem to have more issues with Blacks than the typical White Anglo Protestants. It may be a confidence thing. Or perhaps these White minorities are scared of perceived lower social status in associating with Blacks. Who knows.
We belong to a congregation that is supposed to be liberal but I have heard some really searing comments about Blacks (IQs, sex stereotypes, violence) that leave me speechless.
I know that Jews have achilles heels, things that cause them to get really upset (not just the stereotyped issues). If the shoe had been on the other foot, most of these people would not forgive me.
Please, I hope that I can continue to be patient.

Interesting. I'm the poster you responded to. I'd even considered converting for a time but nastiness (stereotyped generalizations) I've encoutered as an adult has also left me speechless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Today, many Germans reject any guilt/responsibility because they were not alive when this happened but I don't take that position.

I find this odd. How can one feel guilty or assume responsibility for something one has not done nor facilitated?

Another German here (born in the 70s, with parents born after WWII). I agree, but there is a line to walk for Germans. I don't feel guilty or responsible for the Holocaust, but I do think that Germany and Germans have a special responsibility to remember it, and also have a particular responsibility towards the Jews and Israel. I do feel that I should not be personally resented for something neither I nor my parents were involved in, but the topic is certainly deeply uncomfortable. I don't know any Germans who aren't deeply disturbed by our country's history, and nobody I know would reject this type of responsibility.

Curious, do Germans feel any responsibilty towards Palestinians?
Also, what were your grandparents doing during the war? This is not meant to be a threatening question.

There is a tradition among the radical German left to side with the Palestinians. Otherwise I'm not aware that Germans feel more responsibility towards Palestinians than any other nation.

Regarding my grandparents - as far as I know, they were not actively involved in any atrocities. They certainly were the types who looked the other way if they knew anything. My one grandfather was wounded early and returned to his farm, my other grandfather was in Italy. Maybe they sympathized with the Nazis, I don't know. It wasn't something they liked to talk about after the war. They were politically conservative, there were the typical tensions with my leftist, 1968'er generation parents, and I learned early they weren't the ones with whom to discuss politics or social issues. Why do you ask? What they did or didn't do doesn't affect what I wrote above in any way.

OP here, also German, a few years older than you.

Being historically conscious and feeling compassion for Palestinians is no contradiction to me. Messy conflicts such as the Israeli-Paletinian one know (too) many victims and few heroes. But the Palestinian civil population is suffering the most, and it is natural that one's sympathy would be with them.

At the same time, Israel's right to exist and the right of Israelis to live self-determined, in peace and in safe borders is beyond question to me - but the same holds for Palestinians.

Then again, the fact that the Palestinians don't have their own state today is in part their own fault. A couple of times, serious and brave Israeli statesmen - Jitzchak Rabin, Ehud Barak - made reasonably fair peace offers that could have much improved the Palestinians' plight, but the vain and incompetent Palestinian leadership did not take them. The Palestinians would have needed a Nelson Mandela or at least a Gerry Adams, all they had was Yassir Arafat. It takes two to tango, and also two to make peace.

At the same time, and in contrast to the Rabins and Baraks, I do not consider today's Israeli Prime Minister a figure with whom progress could be achieved. Loyalty to Israel does not mean that one needs to agree with its political leadership at every juncture. At this juncture, I don't.

Gerry Adams the terrorist? Interesting selection as Mandela was at some point considered a terrorist as well.

[Anonymous]

[
OP here, also German, a few years older than you.

Being historically conscious and feeling compassion for Palestinians is no contradiction to me. Messy conflicts such as the Israeli-Paletinian one know (too) many victims and few heroes. But the Palestinian civil population is suffering the most, and it is natural that one's sympathy would be with them.

At the same time, Israel's right to exist and the right of Israelis to live self-determined, in peace and in safe borders is beyond question to me - but the same holds for Palestinians.

Then again, the fact that the Palestinians don't have their own state today is in part their own fault. A couple of times, serious and brave Israeli statesmen - Jitzchak Rabin, Ehud Barak - made reasonably fair peace offers that could have much improved the Palestinians' plight, but the vain and incompetent Palestinian leadership did not take them. The Palestinians would have needed a Nelson Mandela or at least a Gerry Adams, all they had was Yassir Arafat. It takes two to tango, and also two to make peace.

At the same time, and in contrast to the Rabins and Baraks, I do not consider today's Israeli Prime Minister a figure with whom progress could be achieved. Loyalty to Israel does not mean that one needs to agree with its political leadership at every juncture. At this juncture, I don't.

Why do they just have to make reasonably fair offers, why not fair offers. When Israelis are fair, it is different than for everyone else.
Why did Germany not give the Jews land? How would you feel if someone said that you had to leave your home and give it to Jews after the war? At that time, Germans probably would have given over the land. But eventually they would ahve complained, but still not with the intensity of the Palestinians. In hindsight, it was an opportunity missed, a homeland in Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been suggested to me the Jewish population was made the scapegoats for perceived or actual rise of affluence without inclusion within Germany?
I also dismissed this as racism but as an adult I am very confused when I am faced with a racist Jewish person.
Yes I'm AA. But never knew about the Jewish Black problems until I came to DC.and I hear it's real bad in NY. Any thoughts?

I am AA and married to Jewish person.
I know about the racism. It is tricky and hard to deal with. Difficult to explain it to my kids.
Almost all white ethnic minorities seem to have more issues with Blacks than the typical White Anglo Protestants. It may be a confidence thing. Or perhaps these White minorities are scared of perceived lower social status in associating with Blacks. Who knows.
We belong to a congregation that is supposed to be liberal but I have heard some really searing comments about Blacks (IQs, sex stereotypes, violence) that leave me speechless.
I know that Jews have achilles heels, things that cause them to get really upset (not just the stereotyped issues). If the shoe had been on the other foot, most of these people would not forgive me.
Please, I hope that I can continue to be patient.

Interesting. I'm the poster you responded to. I'd even considered converting for a time but nastiness (stereotyped generalizations) I've encoutered as an adult has also left me speechless.

Why did you think of converting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Why did Germany not give the Jews land?

I doubt they would have taken it after the holocaust. Hence this is a hypothetical, not a real scneario.

How would you feel if someone said that you had to leave your home and give it to Jews after the war?

Actually my mother's family had to leave their home (in Silesia), fleeing from the advancing red army. The land was then given to Poland, and resettled by Poles who themselves were driven out of Ukraine.

But my mother's family was lucky: they resettled west of the iron curtain, and thus could share into post-WWII West German freedom and prosperity. The Poles had it worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Gerry Adams the terrorist? Interesting selection as Mandela was at some point considered a terrorist as well.

One person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

The issue is that Mandela and also Adams made the transition from fighter to statesman when the opportunity presented itself. Arafat didn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why did Germany not give the Jews land?

I doubt they would have taken it after the holocaust. Hence this is a hypothetical, not a real scneario.

How would you feel if someone said that you had to leave your home and give it to Jews after the war?

Actually my mother's family had to leave their home (in Silesia), fleeing from the advancing red army. The land was then given to Poland, and resettled by Poles who themselves were driven out of Ukraine.

But my mother's family was lucky: they resettled west of the iron curtain, and thus could share into post-WWII West German freedom and prosperity. The Poles had it worse.

That is in hindsight. If they were told, no Palestine, no Judea, no Canaan, yes Bavaria, they would have had to go along. If the British had forced them what choice would they have had.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why did Germany not give the Jews land?

I doubt they would have taken it after the holocaust. Hence this is a hypothetical, not a real scneario.

How would you feel if someone said that you had to leave your home and give it to Jews after the war?

Actually my mother's family had to leave their home (in Silesia), fleeing from the advancing red army. The land was then given to Poland, and resettled by Poles who themselves were driven out of Ukraine.

But my mother's family was lucky: they resettled west of the iron curtain, and thus could share into post-WWII West German freedom and prosperity. The Poles had it worse.

That is in hindsight. If they were told, no Palestine, no Judea, no Canaan, yes Bavaria, they would have had to go along. If the British had forced them what choice would they have had.

Migrate to the US, Argentina, Britain, as so many others....

You can't force someone to live where he does not want to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Why did Germany not give the Jews land?

I doubt they would have taken it after the holocaust. Hence this is a hypothetical, not a real scneario.

How would you feel if someone said that you had to leave your home and give it to Jews after the war?

Actually my mother's family had to leave their home (in Silesia), fleeing from the advancing red army. The land was then given to Poland, and resettled by Poles who themselves were driven out of Ukraine.

But my mother's family was lucky: they resettled west of the iron curtain, and thus could share into post-WWII West German freedom and prosperity. The Poles had it worse.

That is in hindsight. If they were told, no Palestine, no Judea, no Canaan, yes Bavaria, they would have had to go along. If the British had forced them what choice would they have had.

Migrate to the US, Argentina, Britain, as so many others....

You can't force someone to live where he does not want to.

Yes, true. You can't force Palestinians to live in Jordan.
I am just saying that there would have been no Israel without support from the West.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Then again, the fact that the Palestinians don't have their own state today is in part their own fault. A couple of times, serious and brave Israeli statesmen - Jitzchak Rabin, Ehud Barak - made reasonably fair peace offers that could have much improved the Palestinians' plight, but the vain and incompetent Palestinian leadership did not take them. The Palestinians would have needed a Nelson Mandela or at least a Gerry Adams, all they had was Yassir Arafat. It takes two to tango, and also two to make peace.

Gerry Adams the terrorist? Interesting selection as Mandela was at some point considered a terrorist as well.

Gerry Adams the guy who was involved in the 1993 IRA ceasefire. (Not the PP.)

And "Mandela was at some point considered a terrorist as well" -- I'm guessing that you are not familiar with US policy towards South Africa during the Reagan years. The US considered Mandela a terrorist and the ANC a Communist organization.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, true. You can't force Palestinians to live in Jordan.
I am just saying that there would have been no Israel without support from the West.

Of course there wouldn't have been. And so therefore...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been suggested to me the Jewish population was made the scapegoats for perceived or actual rise of affluence without inclusion within Germany?
I also dismissed this as racism but as an adult I am very confused when I am faced with a racist Jewish person.
Yes I'm AA. But never knew about the Jewish Black problems until I came to DC.and I hear it's real bad in NY. Any thoughts?

I am AA and married to Jewish person.
I know about the racism. It is tricky and hard to deal with. Difficult to explain it to my kids.
Almost all white ethnic minorities seem to have more issues with Blacks than the typical White Anglo Protestants. It may be a confidence thing. Or perhaps these White minorities are scared of perceived lower social status in associating with Blacks. Who knows.
We belong to a congregation that is supposed to be liberal but I have heard some really searing comments about Blacks (IQs, sex stereotypes, violence) that leave me speechless.
I know that Jews have achilles heels, things that cause them to get really upset (not just the stereotyped issues). If the shoe had been on the other foot, most of these people would not forgive me.
Please, I hope that I can continue to be patient.

Interesting. I'm the poster you responded to. I'd even considered converting for a time but nastiness (stereotyped generalizations) I've encoutered as an adult has also left me speechless.

I also think that a lot of Jews are not used to the idea that they are being watched wrt racism here in the US. They might even think that the white majority dishes it out more so they could not be the worst, but sadly, some of my worst experiences have been with other minorities including Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you were a regular German citizen who survived the war, would you be eager or even willing to admit that you had serious suspicions about what was happening to the Jews and did nothing to help? Or would it be easier for you to say that you'd heard certain rumors that you entirely discredited?

Let's think about this in current terms. If you are a regular Israeli or American Jew, are you eager or even willing to admit what is happening to the Palestinians? Are you not similarly guilty by omission?

This wouldn't actually be comparable, even if you limited to Israeli Jews, which you didn't. (Note that American Jews are Americans.)

However, there are some parts of German society that are quite grateful for the Israeli Jews vis a vis the Palestinians, because then every time the Holocaust comes up, they can say, "Oh yeah? Well, what about what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians?"

What parts of German society are you referring to, and what are you basing this on? Because I lived in Germany for 30 years and have never met anybody who would say such a thing, and I cannot imagine any of the Germans I know thinking it. The Germans I know find it very difficult to take a position in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, because while they recognize the injustices that are happening to the Palestinians, they find it very hard to take a position against Jews. They know it is a complicated situation, one for which Germany is partially responsible, and they would never compare the crimes against Palestinians with the Holocaust, much less use them to excuse it. The singularity of the Holocaust is a pretty strong dogma in Germany.

See the PP at 19:44.

Huh? 19:44 doesn't say anything that bolsters PP's claim.

[Anonymous]

"There is a tradition among the radical German left to side with the Palestinians. "