8 Skiers dead after accidental Avalanche in California!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is tragic.

I'll never be faced with this dilemma, because although I love to ski, backcountry skiing is well beyond my ability level. But, even if I were inclined to do so, stories like this would make me reconsider.

Same but I love watching videos of it. I *wish* I could do it. It looks amazing - like flying. I think it would be addictive.

I'm interested in hearing what drove their decisions. Someone upthread said they ran out of food. Maybe knowing they'd be stuck for days in the cabins with no food drove them to try to get out.

The guides and hut bookings dictate the schedule. You have to move on as the next group arrives at the hut. They are fully booked with a new group heading out every day. The cabins are small and people are paying a lot of money for these trips.

I have done backcountry hikes and there is zero flexibility in the schedule. One time when we couldn't move on due to a crazy rain storm and a flooded river, we had no accommodation as the next group had already moved in. We had to sleep outside and we had equipment but the temperature had dropped much lower than expected and it was really, really cold and wet.

It's not rocket science that people die when bad decisions are made. For example when hiking Mt Everest and getting caught in a storm. Yet it happens year after year. But you don't need to climb Mt Everest or ski in the back country.

+1 Too many posters trying to defend stupidity and hubris as being brave and adventuresome.

Some of us are neither defending it, nor relishing it and milking the moment to feel superior. It’s called being a decent human being.

Hogwash. The more we talk about it the more people might reconsider thrill seeking for the sake of thrill seeking. They can't say they didn't know there weren't risks, or worse, avalanches are unknown and completely unpredictable.

However, the CONDITIONS for creating avalanches are predictable.

Heavy, high volume snow + craggy peaks & river valleys + sunny warmer day temps = moving supporting downhill snow (uphill avalanche starts) or cleaving off snow (downhill avalanche starts) = avalanche

Well plus skiers. But for the skiers might have been a different story. Humans trigger avalanches.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There will likely be lawsuits against whatever group agreed to take them out. Hopefully not, but lawsuits usually follow these types of things.

Sad that these women couldn't read about extreme weather weather forecasts and think for themselves. Of course, attorneys looking for money will file lawsuits.

Why are we only talking about the women. 9 people died.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They have a rich kids private school & ski program where the Donner Party died? WTF?

Through all of time people have died all over the place. Are we supposed to exist on tiny squares where no one died? You are hysterical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, tragedy, exclamation point!

We make better decisions and are better people. Smug smile.

FAFO, the tension builds…

They’re rich, white, privileged women and bad things happened to them…yes, yes, right there, oh yeahhhhh!

It's not being smug to realize it actually doesn't take much of a brain to review weather reports before traveling and think perhaps best to not go back country skiing when the probability of major snowfall and avalanches have been predicted for a week in an area known for heavy, dangerous snowfalls. Even more important to use sound judgment when you have young children.

Unf the whole situation is congruent with that high death rate Everest year in 1998 or wherever.

The cyclone storm was on radar for coming and a bunch of people decided to still go for it during a short window. Some refused to turn back at the magic 2pm afternoon time to make it down safely in a normal day and got caught so high up no help could come until next day light.

One group aborted and didn’t try to summit. They all lived.

Half of another group went quickly, made it down.

Another group coddled some slow people and half got caught near the summit, below the summit, and that texas guy somehow made it to a small high up base camp.

I believe the Texas guy was a surgeon who lost both his hands due to frost bite. A costly error.

^ Responding my myself b/c I wanted to get it right. He was a pathologist who lost 1 hand and fingers from the other. But the interesting thing about him is after this disaster he turned his life around and no longer sought out extreme adventures. He instead prioritized his family and fixed broken relationships. That is the part that normal people can't relate to. These people actually do have messed up priorities and different values but it takes a near death experience for them to re-evaluate things.

I don't know if it was the same year but the one that got me was the guy who died on Everest who was still able to call and talk to his wife about it as he was dying.

What do you say. Really. I do not understand these people. They're not even pioneers. Thousands have done it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is tragic.

I'll never be faced with this dilemma, because although I love to ski, backcountry skiing is well beyond my ability level. But, even if I were inclined to do so, stories like this would make me reconsider.

Same but I love watching videos of it. I *wish* I could do it. It looks amazing - like flying. I think it would be addictive.

I'm interested in hearing what drove their decisions. Someone upthread said they ran out of food. Maybe knowing they'd be stuck for days in the cabins with no food drove them to try to get out.

The guides and hut bookings dictate the schedule. You have to move on as the next group arrives at the hut. They are fully booked with a new group heading out every day. The cabins are small and people are paying a lot of money for these trips.

I have done backcountry hikes and there is zero flexibility in the schedule. One time when we couldn't move on due to a crazy rain storm and a flooded river, we had no accommodation as the next group had already moved in. We had to sleep outside and we had equipment but the temperature had dropped much lower than expected and it was really, really cold and wet.

It's not rocket science that people die when bad decisions are made. For example when hiking Mt Everest and getting caught in a storm. Yet it happens year after year. But you don't need to climb Mt Everest or ski in the back country.

+1 Too many posters trying to defend stupidity and hubris as being brave and adventuresome.

Some of us are neither defending it, nor relishing it and milking the moment to feel superior. It’s called being a decent human being.

Hogwash. The more we talk about it the more people might reconsider thrill seeking for the sake of thrill seeking. They can't say they didn't know there weren't risks, or worse, avalanches are unknown and completely unpredictable.

However, the CONDITIONS for creating avalanches are predictable.

Heavy, high volume snow + craggy peaks & river valleys + sunny warmer day temps = moving supporting downhill snow (uphill avalanche starts) or cleaving off snow (downhill avalanche starts) = avalanche

Well plus skiers. But for the skiers might have been a different story. Humans trigger avalanches.

Yes skiers themselves, moving, are what trigger the snow movement or cleave the snow, especially then it’s layered or melting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, tragedy, exclamation point!

We make better decisions and are better people. Smug smile.

FAFO, the tension builds…

They’re rich, white, privileged women and bad things happened to them…yes, yes, right there, oh yeahhhhh!

It's not being smug to realize it actually doesn't take much of a brain to review weather reports before traveling and think perhaps best to not go back country skiing when the probability of major snowfall and avalanches have been predicted for a week in an area known for heavy, dangerous snowfalls. Even more important to use sound judgment when you have young children.

Unf the whole situation is congruent with that high death rate Everest year in 1998 or wherever.

The cyclone storm was on radar for coming and a bunch of people decided to still go for it during a short window. Some refused to turn back at the magic 2pm afternoon time to make it down safely in a normal day and got caught so high up no help could come until next day light.

One group aborted and didn’t try to summit. They all lived.

Half of another group went quickly, made it down.

Another group coddled some slow people and half got caught near the summit, below the summit, and that texas guy somehow made it to a small high up base camp.

I believe the Texas guy was a surgeon who lost both his hands due to frost bite. A costly error.

^ Responding my myself b/c I wanted to get it right. He was a pathologist who lost 1 hand and fingers from the other. But the interesting thing about him is after this disaster he turned his life around and no longer sought out extreme adventures. He instead prioritized his family and fixed broken relationships. That is the part that normal people can't relate to. These people actually do have messed up priorities and different values but it takes a near death experience for them to re-evaluate things.

I don't know if it was the same year but the one that got me was the guy who died on Everest who was still able to call and talk to his wife about it as he was dying.

What do you say. Really. I do not understand these people. They're not even pioneers. Thousands have done it.

That was the very experienced guide, who stayed too late at the summit to help the sickly guy make it & take selfies; the guide had the sat phone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, tragedy, exclamation point!

We make better decisions and are better people. Smug smile.

FAFO, the tension builds…

They’re rich, white, privileged women and bad things happened to them…yes, yes, right there, oh yeahhhhh!

It's not being smug to realize it actually doesn't take much of a brain to review weather reports before traveling and think perhaps best to not go back country skiing when the probability of major snowfall and avalanches have been predicted for a week in an area known for heavy, dangerous snowfalls. Even more important to use sound judgment when you have young children.

Unf the whole situation is congruent with that high death rate Everest year in 1998 or wherever.

The cyclone storm was on radar for coming and a bunch of people decided to still go for it during a short window. Some refused to turn back at the magic 2pm afternoon time to make it down safely in a normal day and got caught so high up no help could come until next day light.

One group aborted and didn’t try to summit. They all lived.

Half of another group went quickly, made it down.

Another group coddled some slow people and half got caught near the summit, below the summit, and that texas guy somehow made it to a small high up base camp.

I believe the Texas guy was a surgeon who lost both his hands due to frost bite. A costly error.

^ Responding my myself b/c I wanted to get it right. He was a pathologist who lost 1 hand and fingers from the other. But the interesting thing about him is after this disaster he turned his life around and no longer sought out extreme adventures. He instead prioritized his family and fixed broken relationships. That is the part that normal people can't relate to. These people actually do have messed up priorities and different values but it takes a near death experience for them to re-evaluate things.

I don't know if it was the same year but the one that got me was the guy who died on Everest who was still able to call and talk to his wife about it as he was dying.

What do you say. Really. I do not understand these people. They're not even pioneers. Thousands have done it.

Rob Hall, the founder of the Adventure Consultants company in New Zealand. He was under pressure to establish his business and died alongside his friend Scott Fischer, who was a veteran mountaineer and founder of the Mountain Madness climbing outfit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, tragedy, exclamation point!

We make better decisions and are better people. Smug smile.

FAFO, the tension builds…

They’re rich, white, privileged women and bad things happened to them…yes, yes, right there, oh yeahhhhh!

It's not being smug to realize it actually doesn't take much of a brain to review weather reports before traveling and think perhaps best to not go back country skiing when the probability of major snowfall and avalanches have been predicted for a week in an area known for heavy, dangerous snowfalls. Even more important to use sound judgment when you have young children.

Unf the whole situation is congruent with that high death rate Everest year in 1998 or wherever.

The cyclone storm was on radar for coming and a bunch of people decided to still go for it during a short window. Some refused to turn back at the magic 2pm afternoon time to make it down safely in a normal day and got caught so high up no help could come until next day light.

One group aborted and didn’t try to summit. They all lived.

Half of another group went quickly, made it down.

Another group coddled some slow people and half got caught near the summit, below the summit, and that texas guy somehow made it to a small high up base camp.

I believe the Texas guy was a surgeon who lost both his hands due to frost bite. A costly error.

^ Responding my myself b/c I wanted to get it right. He was a pathologist who lost 1 hand and fingers from the other. But the interesting thing about him is after this disaster he turned his life around and no longer sought out extreme adventures. He instead prioritized his family and fixed broken relationships. That is the part that normal people can't relate to. These people actually do have messed up priorities and different values but it takes a near death experience for them to re-evaluate things.

I don't know if it was the same year but the one that got me was the guy who died on Everest who was still able to call and talk to his wife about it as he was dying.

What do you say. Really. I do not understand these people. They're not even pioneers. Thousands have done it.

That was the very experienced guide, who stayed too late at the summit to help the sickly guy make it & take selfies; the guide had the sat phone.

The wiki page on the accident is pretty comprehensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Mount_Everest_disaster

A lot of judgment around what happened. Jon Krakauer's book also does a good job of the psychology of people who do extreme sports and where they draw the lines around risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I lived out west for 6 months and the western women were really, really rugged.

Given the womens' training I would not say they took extreme risks. Did they take risks. Yes.

Apparently the women had avalanche gear and avalanche training as well as their guides.

Which does little to assure they survive. As pps have noted, their gear mostly makes it easier to find the bodies.

That 3 or 4 guides were in this group who decided to go out when avalanche risks were so high is surprising.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nature is harsh. You can prepare and have all the experience and training and equipment in the world but when it becomes man against natural forces - be it fire, water, cold, snow - nature is stronger.

But there is also an incredible amount of reward for spending time in nature and reaping the benefits of the beauty and adventure. Is there a risk - of course. But life has risk and you only live one life. We can all die tomorrow. For those of us who aren't risk adverse, you accept the risk of nature and adventure just like you do every time you get in your car.

This last bit is utter hogwash a bunch of you are regurgitating in one form or another. This wasn't a time anyone was traipsing about enjoying nature.

They chose to go out in terrible conditions when they shouldn't. They may have been worried if they didn't have enough food. Either they were arrogant or they were desperate. The facts are what most of us want to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nature is harsh. You can prepare and have all the experience and training and equipment in the world but when it becomes man against natural forces - be it fire, water, cold, snow - nature is stronger.

But there is also an incredible amount of reward for spending time in nature and reaping the benefits of the beauty and adventure. Is there a risk - of course. But life has risk and you only live one life. We can all die tomorrow. For those of us who aren't risk adverse, you accept the risk of nature and adventure just like you do every time you get in your car.

Growing up without your mom because she wasn't risk adverse and loved nature? I doubt most kids think that's worth the cost.

Its a fluke accident. That is why it made the news. Women and yes mothers (and fathers) go into the backcountry and the ocean and other places that have risk - all the time and 99.999% of the time, it all goes well. Driving a car is still more dangerous.

Not a fluke accident at all.

Will wait to hear from the survivors about their decision making. I don't believe that the guides, the tour company, and the women were completely indifferent to all the warnings, intentionally ignored all protocols, and deliberately put themselves directly into harms way.

They set out on a ski trip on Sunday with warnings of extreme weather approaching. That was a stupid decision.

New poster here. I can imagine they felt pressure to participate. Group think is the most dangerous dynamic when assessing risk. They booked this 9 months ago apparently. I imagine they were excited, spent much energy and time planning it out, and I assume a few of them were pushing harder for it, and the others fell in line and agreed. This happens in all groups.

The biggest lesson is if you feel there’s a risk, bow out - even if it means disappointing your group or losing big money.

There was a great book that came out some time in the 90s - I can't find it and it was almost entirely about how dangerous groups of people are in exactly these types of situations. It included anecdotes about the King's Cross tube fire in England in 1987 when people could see people exiting their stations on fire and smoke billowing out but people continued to descend into the station just because other people were. The pressure of group think could have definitely spurned them on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Things I don't do as a mom, ski, take helicoper rides, white water rafting or go bungie jumping.

I was supposed to take a helicopter ride over the Grand Canyon with my family. I held one son back and let the others go. I also skipped on white water rafting because my son was just at the weight limit. They said if he fell out we could not rescue him. Nope.

There are great books about disasters and safety in the Grand Canyon and other sites. This is a fascinating book "Over the Edge: Death in the Grand Canyon" by Tom Myers and Michael Ghiglieri. No go on the flights over the Grand Canyon. I'd read this before I go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is tragic.

I'll never be faced with this dilemma, because although I love to ski, backcountry skiing is well beyond my ability level. But, even if I were inclined to do so, stories like this would make me reconsider.

Same but I love watching videos of it. I *wish* I could do it. It looks amazing - like flying. I think it would be addictive.

I'm interested in hearing what drove their decisions. Someone upthread said they ran out of food. Maybe knowing they'd be stuck for days in the cabins with no food drove them to try to get out.

Could be.

They should make facts like that known before everyone imagines some Animal Farm situation.

Absolutely no fear of running out of food. My friend goes to these huts annually and posts videos and photos. It always looks amazing. There’s a central food one w/ a staff to cook. These are not rustic huts. There also wouldn’t have been a group coming in bc everything was shut down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, tragedy, exclamation point!

We make better decisions and are better people. Smug smile.

FAFO, the tension builds…

They’re rich, white, privileged women and bad things happened to them…yes, yes, right there, oh yeahhhhh!

It's not being smug to realize it actually doesn't take much of a brain to review weather reports before traveling and think perhaps best to not go back country skiing when the probability of major snowfall and avalanches have been predicted for a week in an area known for heavy, dangerous snowfalls. Even more important to use sound judgment when you have young children.

Unf the whole situation is congruent with that high death rate Everest year in 1998 or wherever.

The cyclone storm was on radar for coming and a bunch of people decided to still go for it during a short window. Some refused to turn back at the magic 2pm afternoon time to make it down safely in a normal day and got caught so high up no help could come until next day light.

One group aborted and didn’t try to summit. They all lived.

Half of another group went quickly, made it down.

Another group coddled some slow people and half got caught near the summit, below the summit, and that texas guy somehow made it to a small high up base camp.

I believe the Texas guy was a surgeon who lost both his hands due to frost bite. A costly error.

^ Responding my myself b/c I wanted to get it right. He was a pathologist who lost 1 hand and fingers from the other. But the interesting thing about him is after this disaster he turned his life around and no longer sought out extreme adventures. He instead prioritized his family and fixed broken relationships. That is the part that normal people can't relate to. These people actually do have messed up priorities and different values but it takes a near death experience for them to re-evaluate things.

I don't know if it was the same year but the one that got me was the guy who died on Everest who was still able to call and talk to his wife about it as he was dying.

What do you say. Really. I do not understand these people. They're not even pioneers. Thousands have done it.

Rob Hall, the founder of the Adventure Consultants company in New Zealand. He was under pressure to establish his business and died alongside his friend Scott Fischer, who was a veteran mountaineer and founder of the Mountain Madness climbing outfit.

Other way around. Scott was trying to compete on the level of Rob Hall’s Adventure Consultants. That’s what got him in trouble. As for Rob he likely felt pressure from having a journalist on his team (krakauer) and his promise to get a struggling client to the top after he had already tried and failed once.

[Anonymous]

We don’t know the why they decided to hear out from the huts. The survivors will have to tell us.

What appears to be known is
- this was backcountry
- these were experienced skiers
- these were adventure seekers
- they had 4 guides

Sad all around. And no, nobody is excited, thid is not like Camp Mystic.