Donut hole reality

[Anonymous]

People need to vote with their feet. We are quite wealthy, but our son goes to UVA because the similar private alternatives are simply a waste of money. The middle class has been sold a giant scam - don't capitulate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Must be nice to have $2400/month to put into accounts for college.

Not everyone has that kind of income

But if you paid for daycare, you likely could continue to funnel it all (or 75%+) into 529s. If you wanted. It's a choice

I never paid anywhere close to that for daycare

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People need to vote with their feet. We are quite wealthy, but our son goes to UVA because the similar private alternatives are simply a waste of money. The middle class has been sold a giant scam - don't capitulate.

You are not middle class.

[Anonymous]

Nobody is entitled to an elite education. We do have many many affordable ways to get a college education. CC to 4 year state school, in-state 4 year from start, private schools (with good merit many times), OOS schools with merit, and very expensive private schools.
You go where you can afford. Your kid will get a great education most places. Pick one within your budget and move on.

Exactly - no one is entitled to an elite education except the wealthy and poor so the wealthy can feel good about themselves. Middle and upper middle class people, please stay in your lane. Your lane being in state schools, cc to instate schools, lesser/non elite schools that give tons of merit. Don’t even think about aspiring to more. Leave elite schools to the elite. Stay in your lane. When they talk about diversity and all that stuff, just realize it is lip service and they aren’t talking about you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People need to vote with their feet. We are quite wealthy, but our son goes to UVA because the similar private alternatives are simply a waste of money. The middle class has been sold a giant scam - don't capitulate.

Agree on the middle class...but anyone "quite wealthy" (except for the guy on the grand estate serving boxed wine to explain how he go so rich) doesn't care about the marginal difference between UVA and any other school. Especially for engineering...why would I sweat the difference between $50k in-state at UVA and say $85k at MIT or Stanford?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Nobody is entitled to an elite education. We do have many many affordable ways to get a college education. CC to 4 year state school, in-state 4 year from start, private schools (with good merit many times), OOS schools with merit, and very expensive private schools.
You go where you can afford. Your kid will get a great education most places. Pick one within your budget and move on.

Exactly - no one is entitled to an elite education except the wealthy and poor so the wealthy can feel good about themselves. Middle and upper middle class people, please stay in your lane. Your lane being in state schools, cc to instate schools, lesser/non elite schools that give tons of merit. Don’t even think about aspiring to more. Leave elite schools to the elite. Stay in your lane. When they talk about diversity and all that stuff, just realize it is lip service and they aren’t talking about you

This is SPOT ON.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People need to vote with their feet. We are quite wealthy, but our son goes to UVA because the similar private alternatives are simply a waste of money. The middle class has been sold a giant scam - don't capitulate.

Interesting. The wealthy speaking on behalf of the middle class. The actual middle class does ok at many top private schools. Cheaper than instate UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Nobody is entitled to an elite education. We do have many many affordable ways to get a college education. CC to 4 year state school, in-state 4 year from start, private schools (with good merit many times), OOS schools with merit, and very expensive private schools.
You go where you can afford. Your kid will get a great education most places. Pick one within your budget and move on.

Exactly - no one is entitled to an elite education except the wealthy and poor so the wealthy can feel good about themselves. Middle and upper middle class people, please stay in your lane. Your lane being in state schools, cc to instate schools, lesser/non elite schools that give tons of merit. Don’t even think about aspiring to more. Leave elite schools to the elite. Stay in your lane. When they talk about diversity and all that stuff, just realize it is lip service and they aren’t talking about you

Nice parody. It's been shown, regardless of these threads, the donut hole is exactly the demographic most likely to pay up if an elite school offers an acceptance. They're also the demographic that gets statistically fewer offers. Because, yes, these schools want to maximize, the truly wealthy and influential admits and it's statistically better to balance those admits with the truly needy. Donut hole admit is little use.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People need to vote with their feet. We are quite wealthy, but our son goes to UVA because the similar private alternatives are simply a waste of money. The middle class has been sold a giant scam - don't capitulate.

Agree on the middle class...but anyone "quite wealthy" (except for the guy on the grand estate serving boxed wine to explain how he go so rich) doesn't care about the marginal difference between UVA and any other school. Especially for engineering...why would I sweat the difference between $50k in-state at UVA and say $85k at MIT or Stanford?

You wouldn't if you were actually middle class. MIT and Stanford would be similar, maybe less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who claim donut hole and are angry that they only have 130k in an account —are you also stomping your feet that you can’t afford the 2M mansions in the other town? Do you ping away at what you cannot have? Or are you happy that you have a good home in a solid town. Because you are indeed able to afford a good education via state universities. I swear college admissions is the only area where this nonsense comes into play. For everything else in life you buy what you can afford in your budget and move one. Why do you think you are entitled to a high priced private college. You have 100s even 1000s of colleges available to you via public universities.

It’s because so many selective colleges have policies where incomes under $150k students can attend free. Or under $200k, students qualify for need-based aid, and so on.

“Donut hole” (terrible name) is this window of income that puts you above need-based aid, but not enough to save as much as you’d had hoped.

The people who use the term tend to be jerks so it’s understandable why they’re disliked so much, but so many regular people fall into this category. They are stretched with housing, retirement, elder care, college savings, inflation and on and on. And yes, our kids end up going to public colleges or community schools, and doing ok. But, as a policy matter, it does sting that someone earning just a bit less than you qualifies for aid. I know there’ll be someone who says “well then earn less!” 🙄 there’s always a rebuttal to everything, but that’s the honest answer.

It’s about lifestyle choices. Two families on the same income and one chooses a million dollar house and one chooses a $400k house. The million dollar house family with more kids should not get rewarded for their poor decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having been through this process, and saved quite a bit towards college, we still chose public school as do many people in our financial situation. The biggest problem with the belief that "donut reality" means being shut out, is letting rich people convince you that expensive is better. Despite what US news claims, in reality, a kid can have the fabulous life and a quality education and not deplete their parents of every cent they saved, plus take on debt and undue stress, for an undergrad degree.

And they should stop reading this forum and the private school forum immediately .

So many prestige strivers. We had kids get into top 10 schools, but with no aid and enough in 529 to fully cover in-state tuition. They chose the in-state option.

Frankly, the tables are turning. More and more high stat UMC families are no longer paying for private/ivies. The top in-state schools are getting stronger and stronger as a result. Add in the fact that many top employers have stated that they would rather have a top state college kid than many of the Ivies and you really are going to see a shift.

The high cost of tuition has reached a tipping point. It seems $85-90k is it. It will be six-figures a year for privates by the time a Freshmen makes it to Senior year.

Now you only have the poor and the uber rich at Ivies which is an awful dynamic, but mirrors the US.

Plenty of people keep making this statement...please, list the "top" employers.

Even the alums of Ivy schools such as Bill Ackman (Harvard), Marc Rowan (Penn) et al that are upset with their alma maters, have not stopped hiring the grads (that are not part of any "extreme" student organizations).

+1

And here's the thing: Whether we acknowledge it or not, there are leadership positions including e.g. as a SCOTUS Justice which basically require an Ivy League degree, or a degree from a same-caliber school. Those positions are a minority of the job market, but they exist.

As a PP pointed out, several decades ago anyone could pay for a degree from an elite school by working summers, taking out some modest loans, budgeting carefully. Had higher education costs kept pace with inflation, HYP and similar schools would cost about $30K/year today - expensive for sure, but doable for middle and upper-middle class families with some belt-tightening. This isn't the case however: These schools now cost $85K+ and are inaccessible to most families no matter how much beans and rice they eat.

What changed? Reagonomics. In the 80s, legislatures decreased funding for state schools and they began to cost more out of pocket for the students. Private schools followed suit. The bar is set by public colleges and universities, so when they increase tuition due to decreased government funding, so too do private schools.

https://www.salon.com/2014/07/05/ronald_reaga...lesson_no_one_tells/

https://truthout.org/articles/the-cancer-stage-of-reaganomics/

https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/hist...e-bennett-hypothesis

It's true that other options exist. It's also true that even these other options put financial stress on families, and that realistically, other options probably won't take a student to where they want to go if the goal includes certain jobs, because of the class system that exists in the US - the one we pretend doesn't exist.

People are angry because it didn't used to be this way, and doesn't have to be this way.

No an undergrad IVY degree is not required---it's the Law degree. And you can still get into top law schools from any other school. However given that there are only 9 SCOTUS justices and they are appointed for life, the odds of your kid getting this job are slim to none.
But if you want to be an elite judge, yes you need to aim for a T10 law school. And there are plenty of kids who get there from non-ivy undergrads.

SCOTUS Justice is just one example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who claim donut hole and are angry that they only have 130k in an account —are you also stomping your feet that you can’t afford the 2M mansions in the other town? Do you ping away at what you cannot have? Or are you happy that you have a good home in a solid town. Because you are indeed able to afford a good education via state universities. I swear college admissions is the only area where this nonsense comes into play. For everything else in life you buy what you can afford in your budget and move one. Why do you think you are entitled to a high priced private college. You have 100s even 1000s of colleges available to you via public universities.

It’s because so many selective colleges have policies where incomes under $150k students can attend free. Or under $200k, students qualify for need-based aid, and so on.

“Donut hole” (terrible name) is this window of income that puts you above need-based aid, but not enough to save as much as you’d had hoped.

The people who use the term tend to be jerks so it’s understandable why they’re disliked so much, but so many regular people fall into this category. They are stretched with housing, retirement, elder care, college savings, inflation and on and on. And yes, our kids end up going to public colleges or community schools, and doing ok. But, as a policy matter, it does sting that someone earning just a bit less than you qualifies for aid. I know there’ll be someone who says “well then earn less!” 🙄 there’s always a rebuttal to everything, but that’s the honest answer.

It’s about lifestyle choices. Two families on the same income and one chooses a million dollar house and one chooses a $400k house. The million dollar house family with more kids should not get rewarded for their poor decisions.

We picked the 400k house. We still couldn't pay 85k/year times 2 for college. Or I guess we "could", but it would be a financially stupid decision!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Must be nice to have $2400/month to put into accounts for college.

Not everyone has that kind of income

But if you paid for daycare, you likely could continue to funnel it all (or 75%+) into 529s. If you wanted. It's a choice

When we paid for daycare, we were in the red most months.

You are out of touch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People need to vote with their feet. We are quite wealthy, but our son goes to UVA because the similar private alternatives are simply a waste of money. The middle class has been sold a giant scam - don't capitulate.

But if your kid hadn't gotten into UVA, where would he be? people pick UVA in-state because it's a highly ranked/highly regarded school. It's a no brainer, if your kid likes UVA and gets in, that you save $$ and attend.
But lets say you live in Iowa---are you choosing U of Iowa or ISU over anything else? Perhaps, but if you have the money you are likely letting your kid pick another place. Same for Illinois---sure if you get into UIUC for your major great---but if you don't get into engineering or CS, you are heading OOS because there are not any other great in state choices.

Our kid got into our flagship state (ranked in Top 50, well known for engineering) and got into the engineering program, but our kid didn't want to attend college with 25K+ undergrads or be only 45 mins from home. They also got into a T30 and a T45---both cost $85K...T30 is full pay, T45 had merit of $42K/year. Guess what, we let them pick the T30 because it truly is the better school for them---much better fit. Had money been an issue, they'd be at the one with $42K merit. But for us (we are rich and money is fully saved in 529), our kid's 2nd choice after their ED was the T30 for many reasons---mostly because major is great and the entire school and what it offers (unique core curriculum) is perfect for them. After 2 years there, turns out it is the best fit and they are thriving.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having been through this process, and saved quite a bit towards college, we still chose public school as do many people in our financial situation. The biggest problem with the belief that "donut reality" means being shut out, is letting rich people convince you that expensive is better. Despite what US news claims, in reality, a kid can have the fabulous life and a quality education and not deplete their parents of every cent they saved, plus take on debt and undue stress, for an undergrad degree.

And they should stop reading this forum and the private school forum immediately .

So many prestige strivers. We had kids get into top 10 schools, but with no aid and enough in 529 to fully cover in-state tuition. They chose the in-state option.

Frankly, the tables are turning. More and more high stat UMC families are no longer paying for private/ivies. The top in-state schools are getting stronger and stronger as a result. Add in the fact that many top employers have stated that they would rather have a top state college kid than many of the Ivies and you really are going to see a shift.

The high cost of tuition has reached a tipping point. It seems $85-90k is it. It will be six-figures a year for privates by the time a Freshmen makes it to Senior year.

Now you only have the poor and the uber rich at Ivies which is an awful dynamic, but mirrors the US.

Plenty of people keep making this statement...please, list the "top" employers.

Even the alums of Ivy schools such as Bill Ackman (Harvard), Marc Rowan (Penn) et al that are upset with their alma maters, have not stopped hiring the grads (that are not part of any "extreme" student organizations).

+1

And here's the thing: Whether we acknowledge it or not, there are leadership positions including e.g. as a SCOTUS Justice which basically require an Ivy League degree, or a degree from a same-caliber school. Those positions are a minority of the job market, but they exist.

As a PP pointed out, several decades ago anyone could pay for a degree from an elite school by working summers, taking out some modest loans, budgeting carefully. Had higher education costs kept pace with inflation, HYP and similar schools would cost about $30K/year today - expensive for sure, but doable for middle and upper-middle class families with some belt-tightening. This isn't the case however: These schools now cost $85K+ and are inaccessible to most families no matter how much beans and rice they eat.

What changed? Reagonomics. In the 80s, legislatures decreased funding for state schools and they began to cost more out of pocket for the students. Private schools followed suit. The bar is set by public colleges and universities, so when they increase tuition due to decreased government funding, so too do private schools.

https://www.salon.com/2014/07/05/ronald_reaga...lesson_no_one_tells/

https://truthout.org/articles/the-cancer-stage-of-reaganomics/

https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/hist...e-bennett-hypothesis

It's true that other options exist. It's also true that even these other options put financial stress on families, and that realistically, other options probably won't take a student to where they want to go if the goal includes certain jobs, because of the class system that exists in the US - the one we pretend doesn't exist.

People are angry because it didn't used to be this way, and doesn't have to be this way.

No an undergrad IVY degree is not required---it's the Law degree. And you can still get into top law schools from any other school. However given that there are only 9 SCOTUS justices and they are appointed for life, the odds of your kid getting this job are slim to none.
But if you want to be an elite judge, yes you need to aim for a T10 law school. And there are plenty of kids who get there from non-ivy undergrads.

It's not just the law degree. Sticking with the SCOTUS example (and it's just one example): Most of the current (and retired) justices attended Ivy League schools for their undergraduate degrees (exceptions: Barrett, Thomas, Breyer - and Breyer went to Stanford):

https://www.scotusblog.com/biographies-of-the-justices/

See also:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/articles/where-supreme-court-justices-earned-law-degrees

A majority of Supreme Court justices appointed since 1900 have had law degrees from top (read: elite) law schools.

If you want a federal clerkship, you need an elite undergrad degree:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/06/us/supreme-court-ivy-league-harvard-yale.html

SIDEBAR

The Road to a Supreme Court Clerkship Starts at Three Ivy League Colleges
The chances of obtaining a coveted clerkship, a new study found, increase sharply with undergraduate degrees from Harvard, Yale or Princeton.

https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/supreme-court-clerks-and-undergraduate-elitism/

https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/want-to-be-a-supreme-court-clerk-it-helps-to-graduate-from-these-law-schools-and-colleges

Abstract
The most elite and scarce of all U.S. legal credentials is serving as a justice on the U.S. Supreme Court. A close second is clerking for a justice. Only 36 serve each year. Most of the 36,000 law students who graduate each year dream of doing so. A Court clerkship is considered a prize as well as a ticket to future success. Rich accounts about clerking – including by clerks – fill bookshelves and journal pages. Yet, we lack a clear story about who wins the 1-in-1000 clerkship lottery. For this Essay, we seek to provide that story. Our analysis relies on new datasets of all clerks who served between 1980 and 2020, including the details of their path to the high court and their road after. We amend and expand on theories of success in this important labor market. We find that educational pedigree, as opposed to academic performance or any other qualification, has an overwhelming impact on attainment. The Court clerkship selection process proves to be a blend of status and merits where status often prevails. Our analysis does not end there, however. We go on to look at where this forty-year cohort is currently working and confirm that once attained, a Court clerkship does lead to a bounty of opportunities including a return to the Court as a justice. Thus, the Court clerkship lottery is an important labor market not only to lawyers but also to society writ large. In the elite legal labor market, some people are, in fact, more equal than others.