Donut hole reality

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There used to be a belief that higher education was a societal goods that we all had a vested interest in supporting. We believed in social mobility and having an educated populace that could compete with any nation in the world. It is why there was a GI bill, Pell Grants, etc.

You can save a lot, but tuition has been going up at a rate much greater than average income. It is more out of reach than it used to be. So people are understandably frustrated. They can’t keep up and they’ve seen higher ed shift from a common good to a luxury good.

Some of us still believe this and that is why the comparison of a degree to a BMW or a Honda is so wrong.

You believe you are entitled to "higher education at an elite college" or just higher education. I believe in the 2nd. But not the first. Nobody is entitled to an elite education. Smart people know that you can go far in life, you just need AN education. You can get that at your state U or a private U, what you do while attending matters much much much more than where you go. So yes, I believe everyone should be able to get a college degree, if they want. And that is possible and affordable for most. It just might not be Harvard. Fact is you most likely are not getting into Harvard anyhow, so why the concerns.

People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not. The connections my kid made and the interships while in college propelled him up the social ladder. I was your typical MC state school kid with a good Fed job--but as my spouse and I made more $ and vaulted into the UMC it exposes you to so much more and you see the advantages to kids ---ones my spouse and I never had (he grew up poor). People like us lived it so we see what benefits our kids have from their private education and the neighbors we have and the connections they have made. Now--STEM majors it's a different thing completely. An engineer does just as well, if not better, at a public state school. But--if we are talking govt/politics/international relations and business, etc---unfortunately it does matter.

And just like you, who started in a MC state school and married a poor husband, the kid at a non-elite school can find themselves in a neighborhood where they make connections, etc.

But you see its generational. Your family moves up the next generation...or they stay where you are ...which is fine too. But, the reason poor people who make it go on to then, in turn, send their kids to their alma mater or the like. You see the inherent advantages. If I had what my kids had--I would have gotten into an Ivy and been able to afford it too. Their peer group also has mattered. When you are surrounded by excellence you do better. They have studies if they put disadvantaged kids into great publics--they do so much better and are supported more. WE saw that in our own elementary which was a fairly high mix of FARMs and wealthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is amazing that all of us are falling for blaming each other, rather than blaming a rigged system, which is the real problem. It is like working class people and new immigrants complaining about who gets or deserves Medicaid or food stamps while the 1% laughs and counts their money.

The problem isn't that upper middle class people aren't saving enough. It is that a corrupt higher ed system has no restraint on its pricing and acts more like Gucci than a public good, despite claiming non-profit status and accepting tons of government funding.

The student loan industrial complex has supported this, and rather than keeping tuition affordable schools are building luxury amenities that we all managed to do without in the 80s and 90s. Yet they outsource teaching to adjuncts who make poverty-level wages. And now there's a sticker price vs some opaque real cost that involves the equivalent of haggling with a used car salesman.

But sure, point the finger at someone who makes $50k more than you.

Thank you. Completely agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone I know had all their loans forgiven. Do you all just not know how to do that?

Doesn't this just apply to certain public service professions (i.e. social work)? So if your major is comp sci, I am not sure how this would work.

DP

It's not the profession that matters. It's the employer. For example, if you find a government agency or nonprofit offering comp sci jobs, those could qualify for public service loan forgiveness, which you can get after 10 years of payments. You can also get forgiveness regardless of who your employer is if you sign up for the right payment plan and make payments for 20 years (though you may experience a tax hit, it is still a huge benefit).

Definitely read the rules of the program to know which employers and jobs qualify. For example, jobs with international governments and institutions (e.g. World Bank and UN) don't qualify. I was obsessive about this. I don't know why so many people don't read the rules.

Like PP, I and tons of people I know have gotten forgiveness. It's a real thing and people should factor it in when making decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not.

Even if that's true, why is anyone "entitled" to it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There used to be a belief that higher education was a societal goods that we all had a vested interest in supporting. We believed in social mobility and having an educated populace that could compete with any nation in the world. It is why there was a GI bill, Pell Grants, etc.

You can save a lot, but tuition has been going up at a rate much greater than average income. It is more out of reach than it used to be. So people are understandably frustrated. They can’t keep up and they’ve seen higher ed shift from a common good to a luxury good.

Some of us still believe this and that is why the comparison of a degree to a BMW or a Honda is so wrong.

You believe you are entitled to "higher education at an elite college" or just higher education. I believe in the 2nd. But not the first. Nobody is entitled to an elite education. Smart people know that you can go far in life, you just need AN education. You can get that at your state U or a private U, what you do while attending matters much much much more than where you go. So yes, I believe everyone should be able to get a college degree, if they want. And that is possible and affordable for most. It just might not be Harvard. Fact is you most likely are not getting into Harvard anyhow, so why the concerns.

People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not. The connections my kid made and the interships while in college propelled him up the social ladder. I was your typical MC state school kid with a good Fed job--but as my spouse and I made more $ and vaulted into the UMC it exposes you to so much more and you see the advantages to kids ---ones my spouse and I never had (he grew up poor). People like us lived it so we see what benefits our kids have from their private education and the neighbors we have and the connections they have made. Now--STEM majors it's a different thing completely. An engineer does just as well, if not better, at a public state school. But--if we are talking govt/politics/international relations and business, etc---unfortunately it does matter.

Very few majors does it MATTER AT ALL where you attend undergrad. 99% of college is what you do while there, not where you go. So sure if your kid wants to go into IB, then certain elite colleges have an advantage. But very few kids are going into that area and just attending the school is no guarantee. For the vast majority of jobs, it DOES NOT matter where you attend undergrad.

FAANG hires from a wide range of colleges, you don't need to be at an elite school. Plenty of kids get into medical school from non-elite schools (especially those kids who have the resume for an elite school and choose state U honors for financial reasons).
But in reality, where you go simply does not matter. Certainly not enough to go into massive debt or complain if your kid doesn't get into an elite school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not.

Even if that's true, why is anyone "entitled" to it?

Because as we all learned in Animal Farm, “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay is often at the cost of liquidating retirement funds, home equity, life style and nursing home savings.

Shouldn't be. The top schools have excellent need based FA. Many who would be a fafsa doughnut hole would get FA. To be paying full price means, you are well off in earnings and non-retirement assets. Even home equity is often capped (not 2nd or 3rd home of course).

The real problem is failing to save. No one should expect to cashflow college. We started saving when kids in elementary and thought we were late to the game.

Bullsh. First of all, by the time you get to college aged kids, you may be making the most salary you've made. But almost no one makes that their entire career. We saved and save a LOT. We have old cars. No second home. No generational wealth. We have good retirement. Those are the things we've funded: college and retirement.

But all of those things are counted against us, as if we can cashflow $50-90k/year. We can't. And we aren't getting aid. We've made our peace with the schools are high stats kid can go (based on finances) and have had to forego much better schools b/c of money. It should not be this way.

I get that those of you not as well off like to dump on higher earners (UMC) to make yourselves feel better. But we've done everything right. Both coming from just above poverty line upbringings. The "American Dream" of work hard and good things flow from that is a bunch of horse sh-- when it comes to college admissions and sending your kids to the best school. The very wealthy get that opportunity. The poor get that opportunity. No one else.

Bs back atcha. We made a lot less (like less than 70k) early on and saved what we could. It didn't count that much against us. Home equity didn't count against us -- we focused on schools that capped or didn't include hone equity. Even a few that did had good NPC numbers. We are middle class, not poor. We have good 529 savings. We also got decent aid at several schools. We focused on private schools where we'd be eligible based on NPCs and targeted state schools that would be more affordable.

My whole point is that no one should expect to cash flow college. You either didn't plan the savings or the college app choices well enough. There are lots of options with different price tags if you make over 300k and didn't save. Barring medical costs or unforeseen financial crises (and those can be included in Fa apps/appeals), I just don't get the rage on this. If we had the means to save 100k per kid going from 70k to 140k over the years, why can't people who make more save more? Even savings of 200k per kid plus loans and some cashflow would cover most schools.

What schools don't count home equity that offer such generous financial aid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not.

Even if that's true, why is anyone "entitled" to it?

Because as we all learned in Animal Farm, “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”

Completely irrelevant when it comes to luxury goods.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not.

Even if that's true, why is anyone "entitled" to it?

Because as we all learned in Animal Farm, “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”

Completely irrelevant when it comes to luxury goods.

But they're not luxury good. Unfortunately only a few specific colleges give you access to certain high-end jobs. They're more like gatekeepers that are price gouging for access.

[Anonymous]

$719k is what it takes to be in top 5% in DC. People making $300k here definitely feel MC and it’s tough with more than 1 kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not.

Even if that's true, why is anyone "entitled" to it?

Because as we all learned in Animal Farm, “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”

Completely irrelevant when it comes to luxury goods.

But they're not luxury good. Unfortunately only a few specific colleges give you access to certain high-end jobs. They're more like gatekeepers that are price gouging for access.

Does your kid want the high-end job, or do you want it for them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not.

Even if that's true, why is anyone "entitled" to it?

Because as we all learned in Animal Farm, “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”

Completely irrelevant when it comes to luxury goods.

But they're not luxury good. Unfortunately only a few specific colleges give you access to certain high-end jobs. They're more like gatekeepers that are price gouging for access.

Does your kid want the high-end job, or do you want it for them?

My kid does. And she shouldn't have to pay $400k to essentially get access to a job interview.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There used to be a belief that higher education was a societal goods that we all had a vested interest in supporting. We believed in social mobility and having an educated populace that could compete with any nation in the world. It is why there was a GI bill, Pell Grants, etc.

You can save a lot, but tuition has been going up at a rate much greater than average income. It is more out of reach than it used to be. So people are understandably frustrated. They can’t keep up and they’ve seen higher ed shift from a common good to a luxury good.

Some of us still believe this and that is why the comparison of a degree to a BMW or a Honda is so wrong.

You believe you are entitled to "higher education at an elite college" or just higher education. I believe in the 2nd. But not the first. Nobody is entitled to an elite education. Smart people know that you can go far in life, you just need AN education. You can get that at your state U or a private U, what you do while attending matters much much much more than where you go. So yes, I believe everyone should be able to get a college degree, if they want. And that is possible and affordable for most. It just might not be Harvard. Fact is you most likely are not getting into Harvard anyhow, so why the concerns.

People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not. The connections my kid made and the interships while in college propelled him up the social ladder. I was your typical MC state school kid with a good Fed job--but as my spouse and I made more $ and vaulted into the UMC it exposes you to so much more and you see the advantages to kids ---ones my spouse and I never had (he grew up poor). People like us lived it so we see what benefits our kids have from their private education and the neighbors we have and the connections they have made. Now--STEM majors it's a different thing completely. An engineer does just as well, if not better, at a public state school. But--if we are talking govt/politics/international relations and business, etc---unfortunately it does matter.

Very few majors does it MATTER AT ALL where you attend undergrad. 99% of college is what you do while there, not where you go. So sure if your kid wants to go into IB, then certain elite colleges have an advantage. But very few kids are going into that area and just attending the school is no guarantee. For the vast majority of jobs, it DOES NOT matter where you attend undergrad.

FAANG hires from a wide range of colleges, you don't need to be at an elite school. Plenty of kids get into medical school from non-elite schools (especially those kids who have the resume for an elite school and choose state U honors for financial reasons).
But in reality, where you go simply does not matter. Certainly not enough to go into massive debt or complain if your kid doesn't get into an elite school.

This. My faang husband went to a no name school via the military and no issue getting jobs. The degree and skill matter. Way back when school name mattered, not so much except business, law and medicine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A universal cutoff number for need based aid is ridiculous when it does not take into account cost of living. $150k in Oklahoma is much different than San Fran or DC.

The latest findings:

Here's a look how much income a family of four needs to live comfortably in the 20 most expensive U.S. cities: 
San Francisco: $339,123
San Jose, California: $334,547
Boston: $319,738
Arlington, Virginia: $318,573
New York City: $318,406
Oakland, California: $316,243
Urban Honolulu, Hawaii: $299,520
Irvine, California: $291,450
Santa Ana, California: $291,450
Portland, Oregon: $289,786
San Diego: $289,453
Chula Vista, California: $289,453
Newark, New Jersey: $285,043
Jersey City, New Jersey: $285,043
Seattle: $283,712
Aurora, Colorado: $280,467
Long Beach, California: $280,218
Anaheim, California: $280,218
Los Angeles: $276,557
Washington, D.C.: $275,642

If you can’t afford to live there, then don’t live there. I can’t afford a Bentley, so I drive a no-frills Escape.

And that is the average of Arlington which includes the areas zoned to poor public schools. If we are talking about zipcodes to the better public schools--it is much more than $318k to live comfortably, afford a SFH that most of America would think is a hovel.

Then you live in a different area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People say that, but for certain majors it absolutely matters whether the college is elite or not.

Even if that's true, why is anyone "entitled" to it?

Because as we all learned in Animal Farm, “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others”

Completely irrelevant when it comes to luxury goods.

But they're not luxury good. Unfortunately only a few specific colleges give you access to certain high-end jobs. They're more like gatekeepers that are price gouging for access.

But those high end jobs are, themselves, luxuries.