Swim Team Drama

[Anonymous]

There are many shades of CCRA echoing through this thread....

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Parents complaining that their kid didn’t swim “X” stroke, parents telling the coach that their kid was VERY DISAPPOINTED that they didn’t make it to divisionals.

Otherwise it was a fun season.

Ugh my kid has been disappointed at not making it to divisionals and I’ve definitely mentioned that to others in conversation. It doesn’t mean I thought they should have been picked at all. The coach makes the right decisions and I’d never question them (and it’s been very clear cut) but it’s ok for kids to be disappointed!

Someone told me a parent was so disappointed, they sent a letter to the board for further investigation into how the lineup was chosen. It's ok for a kid to be disappointed. This is going to be the first of many disappointments in life. Move on. The parent needs to get a life!

DP. How do lineups get “chosen”? At our pool the top swimmers get to pick their strokes. If you have one of the top two times you are guaranteed your choice. The times can be from an A or B meet. If you’re lower down on the list you may not make it based on which strokes the top swimmers pick, but there’s not really any way to game this? Weird.

At our MCSL team for "A" meets, the coaches pick the lineups. It is always the top swimmers in those events, except for when you have swimmers are that have top 3 times in 4 events (MCSL has a 3 event max). Then it is a matter of trying to figure out how best to maximize points. For example in fly if the times for your 3 top swimmers are 27,28,29, and the other team has 24,23,24, then it's probably not worth burning that 27 swimmer in fly if they are better at their other events vs the other team. This only becomes a problem when you have a couple of exceptional swimmers in an age group and there's not a deep bench behind them. And yes, this can "hurt" that 27 fly swimmer IF they're on an improvement track and want to make individual all stars because there's only 6 meets possible (5A + divisionals) and you just "burned" one of them.

This is another area where I find MCSL to be so much more transparent than NVSL. Because an MCSL swimmer can swim 3/4 strokes plus the IM at A meets it is a lot harder to “game” someone out of points to help boost a coach’s favorite teammate.

Sounds like a lot more fun for the swimmers too, more opprtunities to compete and improve. Oh well. NVSL is going to stay in the dark ages.

Sounds like fewer kids swimming A meets and more kids getting discouraged and quitting

More opportunities for NVSL swimmers to get A meets/divisional slots than MCSL swimmers.

DP. How do you figure? If there is IM, that’s a whole extra event to fill. Kids can swim up to three events, and there are five events. Sounds fun to me. I think they have more relays too.

In mcsl a swimmer can do 4 events for divisionals. For our pool they generally took the two fastest all around kids for each age group who each did 4 events and then two others who only did one event each.

The actual rule for MCSL divisionals is:

A team may enter a swimmer in a maximum of five events. A team
cannot enter a swimmer in all four individual stroke events (freestyle,
backstroke, breaststroke and butterfly

So, essentially the real life max is 3 individuals, IM, and then ONE of the relays. It is very unlikely the relays overlap since the end meet graduated relay is one 8U, one 9-10, one 11-12, and one 13-14 and the halftime medley relay is open, so it's almost always from the 15-18 group. I suppose if you had some crazy fast 14 year old that would throw off the calculations, and then they could do both relays, and then either 3 strokes OR 2 strokes and IM.

[Anonymous]

We had a great season, no drama, lots of close knit friends, go Division D!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Parents complaining that their kid didn’t swim “X” stroke, parents telling the coach that their kid was VERY DISAPPOINTED that they didn’t make it to divisionals.

Otherwise it was a fun season.

We had a parent who was “SO disappointed” about an award situation that she wrote and sent a multi-paragraph email while the end of season picnic was still happening.

Wow. I just drank my wine and went home early. Maybe she had a little TOO much wine. The awards at our pool were honestly laughable. Sometimes I am not sure why we let our kids participate in this farce: starting to understand why the older parents we know started planning vacations during swim season!

I rolled my eyes a little at our awards too (though it was a fun night overall). Definitely reflected the "who's who" of the families in the in-crowd. We also have a big team and some kids got multiple awards - seems like they could have spread those out a bit, especially some of the more subjective ones. (My kids are new and average and did not deserve nor get any special awards - but there were plenty of kids they could have given awards to without giving the same kids 2 or 3.)

They are all subjective, lol. There’s a noticeable drop off in participation in summer swim as the age groups go up. Trophies don’t have the same appeal when it’s obvious they aren’t earned—kids move on but not without some drama. Best not to encourage kids to get too invested in the awards, but that’s a topic for another day.

Except for MVP, at least at our pool. It is purely based on points earned in individual races ( not relays). We had a couple kids win all their races so they both got it.

And ours we have most improved and sportsmanship for both genders every age group and an over all coaches award separate from the MVP (which is high points). Everyone of those goes to a kid who swims for the coach's club every year. In some cases, it seems like he is throwing a bone to a kid who swims year rounds, but can't make A meets

We are MCSL and have most improved, coaches award and hardest worker. Out of those 6 (one male and female each), only one (most improved) went to a swimmer in the coaches year round club. That was for a kid who could barely make it across the pool last year, and this year had all star times - so completely warranted. I have never seen favoritism at our pool. Thankfully. Out coaches are pretty awesome.

You are lucky. Our coaches awards didn't go to the kids who won or trying the hardest or most improved, it went to the team rep kids and a few who didn't do much of anything and none of those kids came for most of the practices or meets and complained and argued with the coaches the entire time. We have huge favoritism and it's not to the winning kids. I suspect if they keep up the behavior some of the families will leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents complaining that their kid didn’t swim “X” stroke, parents telling the coach that their kid was VERY DISAPPOINTED that they didn’t make it to divisionals.

Otherwise it was a fun season.

Ugh my kid has been disappointed at not making it to divisionals and I’ve definitely mentioned that to others in conversation. It doesn’t mean I thought they should have been picked at all. The coach makes the right decisions and I’d never question them (and it’s been very clear cut) but it’s ok for kids to be disappointed!

Someone told me a parent was so disappointed, they sent a letter to the board for further investigation into how the lineup was chosen. It's ok for a kid to be disappointed. This is going to be the first of many disappointments in life. Move on. The parent needs to get a life!

DP. How do lineups get “chosen”? At our pool the top swimmers get to pick their strokes. If you have one of the top two times you are guaranteed your choice. The times can be from an A or B meet. If you’re lower down on the list you may not make it based on which strokes the top swimmers pick, but there’s not really any way to game this? Weird.

At our MCSL team for "A" meets, the coaches pick the lineups. It is always the top swimmers in those events, except for when you have swimmers are that have top 3 times in 4 events (MCSL has a 3 event max). Then it is a matter of trying to figure out how best to maximize points. For example in fly if the times for your 3 top swimmers are 27,28,29, and the other team has 24,23,24, then it's probably not worth burning that 27 swimmer in fly if they are better at their other events vs the other team. This only becomes a problem when you have a couple of exceptional swimmers in an age group and there's not a deep bench behind them. And yes, this can "hurt" that 27 fly swimmer IF they're on an improvement track and want to make individual all stars because there's only 6 meets possible (5A + divisionals) and you just "burned" one of them.

This is another area where I find MCSL to be so much more transparent than NVSL. Because an MCSL swimmer can swim 3/4 strokes plus the IM at A meets it is a lot harder to “game” someone out of points to help boost a coach’s favorite teammate.

Sounds like a lot more fun for the swimmers too, more opprtunities to compete and improve. Oh well. NVSL is going to stay in the dark ages.

Sounds like fewer kids swimming A meets and more kids getting discouraged and quitting

More opportunities for NVSL swimmers to get A meets/divisional slots than MCSL swimmers.

DP. How do you figure? If there is IM, that’s a whole extra event to fill. Kids can swim up to three events, and there are five events. Sounds fun to me. I think they have more relays too.

In mcsl a swimmer can do 4 events for divisionals. For our pool they generally took the two fastest all around kids for each age group who each did 4 events and then two others who only did one event each.

The actual rule for MCSL divisionals is:

A team may enter a swimmer in a maximum of five events. A team
cannot enter a swimmer in all four individual stroke events (freestyle,
backstroke, breaststroke and butterfly

So, essentially the real life max is 3 individuals, IM, and then ONE of the relays. It is very unlikely the relays overlap since the end meet graduated relay is one 8U, one 9-10, one 11-12, and one 13-14 and the halftime medley relay is open, so it's almost always from the 15-18 group. I suppose if you had some crazy fast 14 year old that would throw off the calculations, and then they could do both relays, and then either 3 strokes OR 2 strokes and IM.

3 individuals plus IM is four strokes. In NVSL, swimmers are capped at two for divisionals (including IM). It seems like a great thing for small teams and a not so good think for kids on large teams who aren't at the top of their age groups

[Anonymous]

Are all these posts about county pool swim teams? Or country club swimming also?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are all these posts about county pool swim teams? Or country club swimming also?

Any pool with a team that participates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all these posts about county pool swim teams? Or country club swimming also?

Any pool with a team that participates.

NVSL is only private member-only pools. I have no idea about county pools as there are no outdoor county pools that I’m aware of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are all these posts about county pool swim teams? Or country club swimming also?

Country Club is a different league

[Anonymous]

We do both MCSL and CCSDA and there is drama in both leagues. It’s sad because the kids don’t even know. They are just having fun. Parents are jerks and the ruin everything good for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our Divisionals starter was the slowest, most inconsistent starter I have seen all summer.
There were more ‘stand’ pauses than I have ever heard in my many years at any pool.
I felt for the kids, many of whom jumped in hearing ‘stand,’ probably expecting to hear the start.
Fortunately, those kids were able to swim and get a time; but that was likely not their best after having been startled on the start.
I asked if he was new and was told he was a seasoned league starter, who also trains others :-/

Starters are not trained to be "consistent." They are trained to respond to the swimmers. Quick starts aren't necessarily fair starts (if the field isn't coming to set). If your starter was slow, it's because the field wasn't coming to set. If the starter gives the starting signal too quickly with a field that is not coming to set, you are going to have many more false starts. Stand commands often save kids from being DQ'ed for false starts, and so you're lucky you had a starter that was trying to avoid false starts. I'm PVS-certified as a starter (which requires hundreds and hundreds of starts before nationally certified officials). I've been around a lot of summer pools. NVSL/MCSL requires only a two hour class, and many summer starters are horrible.

A kid that jumps in response to the stand command is not disqualified. If the swimmer is moving and cannot regain his or her balance and falls in after the start command is given is disqualified. There are many US Swimming scenarios describing this clearly.

As someone who has been starting for years and has been repeatedly evaluated, I can tell you starting is not as easy at it looks. I didn't see the meet you are describing, but it sounds to me like you don't understand the rules of swimming. Perhaps you should take the starter course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our Divisionals starter was the slowest, most inconsistent starter I have seen all summer.
There were more ‘stand’ pauses than I have ever heard in my many years at any pool.
I felt for the kids, many of whom jumped in hearing ‘stand,’ probably expecting to hear the start.
Fortunately, those kids were able to swim and get a time; but that was likely not their best after having been startled on the start.
I asked if he was new and was told he was a seasoned league starter, who also trains others :-/

Starters are not trained to be "consistent." They are trained to respond to the swimmers. Quick starts aren't necessarily fair starts (if the field isn't coming to set). If your starter was slow, it's because the field wasn't coming to set. If the starter gives the starting signal too quickly with a field that is not coming to set, you are going to have many more false starts. Stand commands often save kids from being DQ'ed for false starts, and so you're lucky you had a starter that was trying to avoid false starts. I'm PVS-certified as a starter (which requires hundreds and hundreds of starts before nationally certified officials). I've been around a lot of summer pools. NVSL/MCSL requires only a two hour class, and many summer starters are horrible.

A kid that jumps in response to the stand command is not disqualified. If the swimmer is moving and cannot regain his or her balance and falls in after the start command is given is disqualified. There are many US Swimming scenarios describing this clearly.

As someone who has been starting for years and has been repeatedly evaluated, I can tell you starting is not as easy at it looks. I didn't see the meet you are describing, but it sounds to me like you don't understand the rules of swimming. Perhaps you should take the starter course.

+1. You could have said that about the starter at our Divisionals, but then you weren't closely watching the kids. I'm a team rep and we were all commenting on what a good job he was doing being responsive to what was happening. A lot of them had the yips and were having trouble getting set, even in the older age groups. He did everything he could to ensure there weren't any false starts and in at least one event had them stand 2 or 3 times because one or more kids were still wiggling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are many shades of CCRA echoing through this thread....

Such as?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many shades of CCRA echoing through this thread....

Such as?

Enlighten me, what is CCRA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are many shades of CCRA echoing through this thread....

Such as?

Enlighten me, what is CCRA?

Division 1 Chevy Chase Rec, right?