Missing middle- Arlington

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, left off the link!

What happens to a house like this before MMH? After? (I am assuming there's no historic deed restriction)

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2607-18th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22201_M65790-59086

This is an interesting question. I’m not sure MMH is the pivotal issue though b/c at that price point it’s very high for a tear down but still needs a ton of work. Like I bet you could easily sink 400-500k into adding on and updating everything which gets you up to spending $1.7-1.8ish. And for that you could buy something newer or already updated without living through a renovation. This tear down vs. renovate issue exists regardless of missing middle.

If it is torn down, the lot is rather small for a multiplex. Would it make sense to build one SFH or try to build a duplex or triplex? I don’t know the answer to that yet.

It's a tough lot to build on because it's small, but that generally was the going rate for tear downs in that area.

I’m the PP. Wow, is it really? I live in N Arlington (but closer to Westover) and tear downs still go for under $1m for the most part. I didn’t relative it was quite so high in Lyon Village. It still seems like a lot of money to drop either way on having to tear down or do a major reno still. Based on the street view, it doesn’t look like a ton of new construction, which may be due to the lot size and being hard to build something new. So my vote is it will be a reno and MMH won’t really affect the outcome. But then again who knows!

Yup. For a good lot, tear downs can go for even more than that.

There are some new builds/renovations around the corner. I'm guessing this will just be a regular renovation because the lot is so small. Or maybe a renovation to build out two units - the main house plus rebuild the garage as an ADU.

I'm thinking stacked duplex, but we shall see

I thought duplexes had to be side-by-side. Was it stacked townhomes that were eliminated? I thought something stacked was discussed and eliminated.

Under Arlington’s building code, a duplex is a stacked structure. What many think of as side by side duplexes are called “semi-detached” in the code

Under MM, Arlington eliminated eight plexes but kept two to six plexes.

Thanks for this clarification- I didn’t know that. And I thought I was pretty educated about MM!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, left off the link!

What happens to a house like this before MMH? After? (I am assuming there's no historic deed restriction)

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2607-18th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22201_M65790-59086

This is an interesting question. I’m not sure MMH is the pivotal issue though b/c at that price point it’s very high for a tear down but still needs a ton of work. Like I bet you could easily sink 400-500k into adding on and updating everything which gets you up to spending $1.7-1.8ish. And for that you could buy something newer or already updated without living through a renovation. This tear down vs. renovate issue exists regardless of missing middle.

If it is torn down, the lot is rather small for a multiplex. Would it make sense to build one SFH or try to build a duplex or triplex? I don’t know the answer to that yet.

It's a tough lot to build on because it's small, but that generally was the going rate for tear downs in that area.

I’m the PP. Wow, is it really? I live in N Arlington (but closer to Westover) and tear downs still go for under $1m for the most part. I didn’t relative it was quite so high in Lyon Village. It still seems like a lot of money to drop either way on having to tear down or do a major reno still. Based on the street view, it doesn’t look like a ton of new construction, which may be due to the lot size and being hard to build something new. So my vote is it will be a reno and MMH won’t really affect the outcome. But then again who knows!

Yup. For a good lot, tear downs can go for even more than that.

There are some new builds/renovations around the corner. I'm guessing this will just be a regular renovation because the lot is so small. Or maybe a renovation to build out two units - the main house plus rebuild the garage as an ADU.

I'm thinking stacked duplex, but we shall see

I thought duplexes had to be side-by-side. Was it stacked townhomes that were eliminated? I thought something stacked was discussed and eliminated.

Under Arlington’s building code, a duplex is a stacked structure. What many think of as side by side duplexes are called “semi-detached” in the code

Under MM, Arlington eliminated eight plexes but kept two to six plexes.

Thanks for this clarification- I didn’t know that. And I thought I was pretty educated about MM!

A semi-detached house also requires a minimum width of 24 feet per unit (3 unit townhouses require 16 ft).

So as a practical matter you can only be built semi-detached units on lots at least 64 feet wide in R-5/6 areas (which have 10+8 ft setbacks).

The standard lot width in Lyon Village is 50 ft so you can only really build stacked units unless you have a larger/wide lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, left off the link!

What happens to a house like this before MMH? After? (I am assuming there's no historic deed restriction)

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2607-18th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22201_M65790-59086

This is an interesting question. I’m not sure MMH is the pivotal issue though b/c at that price point it’s very high for a tear down but still needs a ton of work. Like I bet you could easily sink 400-500k into adding on and updating everything which gets you up to spending $1.7-1.8ish. And for that you could buy something newer or already updated without living through a renovation. This tear down vs. renovate issue exists regardless of missing middle.

If it is torn down, the lot is rather small for a multiplex. Would it make sense to build one SFH or try to build a duplex or triplex? I don’t know the answer to that yet.

It's a tough lot to build on because it's small, but that generally was the going rate for tear downs in that area.

I’m the PP. Wow, is it really? I live in N Arlington (but closer to Westover) and tear downs still go for under $1m for the most part. I didn’t relative it was quite so high in Lyon Village. It still seems like a lot of money to drop either way on having to tear down or do a major reno still. Based on the street view, it doesn’t look like a ton of new construction, which may be due to the lot size and being hard to build something new. So my vote is it will be a reno and MMH won’t really affect the outcome. But then again who knows!

Yup. For a good lot, tear downs can go for even more than that.

There are some new builds/renovations around the corner. I'm guessing this will just be a regular renovation because the lot is so small. Or maybe a renovation to build out two units - the main house plus rebuild the garage as an ADU.

I'm thinking stacked duplex, but we shall see

I thought duplexes had to be side-by-side. Was it stacked townhomes that were eliminated? I thought something stacked was discussed and eliminated.

Under Arlington’s building code, a duplex is a stacked structure. What many think of as side by side duplexes are called “semi-detached” in the code

Under MM, Arlington eliminated eight plexes but kept two to six plexes.

Thanks for this clarification- I didn’t know that. And I thought I was pretty educated about MM!

A semi-detached house also requires a minimum width of 24 feet per unit (3 unit townhouses require 16 ft).

So as a practical matter you can only be built semi-detached units on lots at least 64 feet wide in R-5/6 areas (which have 10+8 ft setbacks).

The standard lot width in Lyon Village is 50 ft so you can only really build stacked units unless you have a larger/wide lot.

This all makes sense. Yeah the LV lots are small and expensive. I don’t think anyone really knows what will happen to them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, left off the link!

What happens to a house like this before MMH? After? (I am assuming there's no historic deed restriction)

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2607-18th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22201_M65790-59086

This is an interesting question. I’m not sure MMH is the pivotal issue though b/c at that price point it’s very high for a tear down but still needs a ton of work. Like I bet you could easily sink 400-500k into adding on and updating everything which gets you up to spending $1.7-1.8ish. And for that you could buy something newer or already updated without living through a renovation. This tear down vs. renovate issue exists regardless of missing middle.

If it is torn down, the lot is rather small for a multiplex. Would it make sense to build one SFH or try to build a duplex or triplex? I don’t know the answer to that yet.

It's a tough lot to build on because it's small, but that generally was the going rate for tear downs in that area.

I’m the PP. Wow, is it really? I live in N Arlington (but closer to Westover) and tear downs still go for under $1m for the most part. I didn’t relative it was quite so high in Lyon Village. It still seems like a lot of money to drop either way on having to tear down or do a major reno still. Based on the street view, it doesn’t look like a ton of new construction, which may be due to the lot size and being hard to build something new. So my vote is it will be a reno and MMH won’t really affect the outcome. But then again who knows!

Yup. For a good lot, tear downs can go for even more than that.

There are some new builds/renovations around the corner. I'm guessing this will just be a regular renovation because the lot is so small. Or maybe a renovation to build out two units - the main house plus rebuild the garage as an ADU.

I'm thinking stacked duplex, but we shall see

I thought duplexes had to be side-by-side. Was it stacked townhomes that were eliminated? I thought something stacked was discussed and eliminated.

Under Arlington’s building code, a duplex is a stacked structure. What many think of as side by side duplexes are called “semi-detached” in the code

Under MM, Arlington eliminated eight plexes but kept two to six plexes.

Thanks for this clarification- I didn’t know that. And I thought I was pretty educated about MM!

A semi-detached house also requires a minimum width of 24 feet per unit (3 unit townhouses require 16 ft).

So as a practical matter you can only be built semi-detached units on lots at least 64 feet wide in R-5/6 areas (which have 10+8 ft setbacks).

The standard lot width in Lyon Village is 50 ft so you can only really build stacked units unless you have a larger/wide lot.

Can you build them on lots that are already zoned for semi-detached housing? I take the 7th St. shortcut off Carlin Springs Rd. to Barcroft off Fourt Mile Run. That area has old trashy semi-detached houses that look like they would blow over in a windstorm. A smart builder would go in there an start tearing them down and replacing them with the type of housing MM people want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry, left off the link!

What happens to a house like this before MMH? After? (I am assuming there's no historic deed restriction)

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2607-18th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22201_M65790-59086

This one is pending now. There is a home under construction across the street that will likely list for 2.5M+. Wonder if this lot at the link will be a SFH or a multiplex.

[Anonymous]

Selling agent is from outside the area. This usually means an out of area builder bought the tear down. Arlington builders are currently the only ones who seem to be building MM housing.
I suspect he thinks he will get rich quick building a single house in a great area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Selling agent is from outside the area. This usually means an out of area builder bought the tear down. Arlington builders are currently the only ones who seem to be building MM housing.
I suspect he thinks he will get rich quick building a single house in a great area.

Interesting insight!

[Anonymous]

Tracker update today shows a lot of 6-plexes -- including two that appear to be next door to each other. I project parking challenges!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Tracker update today shows a lot of 6-plexes -- including two that appear to be next door to each other. I project parking challenges!

There is already construction at or near that location on 7th St S. I wonder if they were originally planning on SFHs and are pausing now. There is plenty of off street parking near that block.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tracker update today shows a lot of 6-plexes -- including two that appear to be next door to each other. I project parking challenges!

There is already construction at or near that location on 7th St S. I wonder if they were originally planning on SFHs and are pausing now. There is plenty of off street parking near that block.

Doesn’t that location also require one spot per unit instead of the lower ratio for units by transit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So begins the decline of Arlington. More people will choose McLean or Bethesda once they see how neighborhoods get transformed by this stupidity.

I don’t think this will happen. I think people will continue to want Arlington for their commutes, or being near amenities, etc. Many of us may go private (like our family). But Arlington is still going to be desirable.

For many people, the dream of owning a SFH is about being on a quiet, peaceful street relatively free of density, not one clogged with cars and people. If people want density, they choose a townhouse or condo. Make no mistake, many people's property values will be negatively impacted.

It's like when you're considering buying a house, but the one next door has all the hallmarks of being inhabited by a hoarder (stuff all over the lawn and backyard, poorly cared for) -- you take a pass and wait for something better to come along. No different here.

Yesterday I literally had someone tell me they chose a SFH in Arlington bc it reminded them of a “city.” The home buying demographic is changing. People are valuing different things.

Perhaps they were looking more over in Lyon Village, which does feel like the city as opposed to homes in the Williamsburg, country club Hills, etc. neighborhoods.

DP. I don’t see the incentives for MM housing in those neighborhoods and if you look at the map most of the MM projects are near amenities. I live in a SFH in 22207 because when we outgrew our condo in LV we couldn’t afford a SFH in that neighborhood. I would never rent here or buy a duplex or multi family housing (unless I could purchase the whole building). It’s not walkable. The rents in the R-B corridor are higher than in other parts of the county. So if I were a developer looking to build a rental that’s where it would make sense to focus.

I agree with this. And to put an even finer point on it, the developers will look for land alone the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor that’s the cheapest. Which means not Lyon Village. That neighborhood is the most expensive per square foot in all of Arlington County. If the developers want to build plexes to rent out, they will target places like Virginia Square and Lyon Park where the land prices are lower. Maybe duplexes make sense in LV, but I think the building lots are too expensive for a 4-6 plex of rental units. There are other metro-accessible neighborhoods with cheaper lots.

Two of the MM projects are in Lyon Village. One on Danvilel St.and one on Jackson St.

No there’s one duplex on N Jackson. Unless Danville just got filed. What’s the Danville address?

Just filed and will not give specific address but between 1500 and 1700 block.

There’s no record of this Danville filing on the EHO tracker. I would think it would have shown up by now.

[Anonymous]

I was surprised that so many filings were for plexes that will be rented. Looks like the townhouses are in so so areas. What’s the point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was surprised that so many filings were for plexes that will be rented. Looks like the townhouses are in so so areas. What’s the point?

It’s somewhat complex to create a condo association (HOA) for a 6-unit condo building, and it’s a pain for the developer to manage and transition the HOA over to the owners, especially if a few of the units struggle to sell.

Renting the 6 units out will be profitable and there will always be a steady stream of well-paid renters wanting to live in Arlington.

I agree it is dumb to disrupt SFH neighborhoods and create parking issues if these are going to be 6-plex rentals. A 6-pled could easily add 9 cars. Build a real high rise apartment or condo building in already-dense neighborhoods instead (something Arlington is already doing and should continue to do).

I’m for MM but this is why I think it should be capped at duplexes or 3 rowhomes (no HOA) for purchase only.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So begins the decline of Arlington. More people will choose McLean or Bethesda once they see how neighborhoods get transformed by this stupidity.

I don’t think this will happen. I think people will continue to want Arlington for their commutes, or being near amenities, etc. Many of us may go private (like our family). But Arlington is still going to be desirable.

For many people, the dream of owning a SFH is about being on a quiet, peaceful street relatively free of density, not one clogged with cars and people. If people want density, they choose a townhouse or condo. Make no mistake, many people's property values will be negatively impacted.

It's like when you're considering buying a house, but the one next door has all the hallmarks of being inhabited by a hoarder (stuff all over the lawn and backyard, poorly cared for) -- you take a pass and wait for something better to come along. No different here.

Yesterday I literally had someone tell me they chose a SFH in Arlington bc it reminded them of a “city.” The home buying demographic is changing. People are valuing different things.

Perhaps they were looking more over in Lyon Village, which does feel like the city as opposed to homes in the Williamsburg, country club Hills, etc. neighborhoods.

DP. I don’t see the incentives for MM housing in those neighborhoods and if you look at the map most of the MM projects are near amenities. I live in a SFH in 22207 because when we outgrew our condo in LV we couldn’t afford a SFH in that neighborhood. I would never rent here or buy a duplex or multi family housing (unless I could purchase the whole building). It’s not walkable. The rents in the R-B corridor are higher than in other parts of the county. So if I were a developer looking to build a rental that’s where it would make sense to focus.

I agree with this. And to put an even finer point on it, the developers will look for land alone the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor that’s the cheapest. Which means not Lyon Village. That neighborhood is the most expensive per square foot in all of Arlington County. If the developers want to build plexes to rent out, they will target places like Virginia Square and Lyon Park where the land prices are lower. Maybe duplexes make sense in LV, but I think the building lots are too expensive for a 4-6 plex of rental units. There are other metro-accessible neighborhoods with cheaper lots.

Two of the MM projects are in Lyon Village. One on Danvilel St.and one on Jackson St.

No there’s one duplex on N Jackson. Unless Danville just got filed. What’s the Danville address?

Just filed and will not give specific address but between 1500 and 1700 block.

There’s no record of this Danville filing on the EHO tracker. I would think it would have shown up by now.

A house that meets that criteria and was sold last year was recently rented so maybe they decided to wait or realized MM wasn’t the free money they thought it would be

[Anonymous]

Can someone repost the link to the database? I can’t find it in the thread.