White women try to "reclaim power" through #vanillagirl and #cleangirl beauty posts??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

I’m a white woman and no one tells me those things (let alone constantly!!!)

Have you considered that this experience of how you feel labeled as a basic Karen may have more to do with your personality than your race?

Doesn't the fact that there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men clue you in to how pervasive misogyny is? Easier to pick on the girls than the boys.

Chad is a white man.

For a frat boy type, fine. No one is referring to 50 or 60 to business executives as Chad. It's not at all comparable to Karen.

The assertion was "there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men." I think I'd agree with your more nuanced statement here. There isn't a widely recognized word for 50 or 60 year old white male business executives.

I've never heard of anyone except for like incels on reddit or 4chan use the term "chad" to refer to a white guy. And I could be wrong, but isn't it used as a sort of compliment? Like doesn't it just mean an alpha male, someone who is successful with women and also professionaly (or at least has money)? I know it's also criticizing these guys but it also seems to be admiring in a jealous way. Like incels hate Chads, but not because they are oppressed by them -- because they want to be them or have what they have.

Compare that to use of the term Karen, which has been used by journalists and culture commentators to describe a white woma exploiting her white privilege to endanger black people. I think at first the targets were actually white women doing scary things that did in fact endanger black people (I first became aware of it to describe that woman who called the cops on the black people having a barbecue). And then the Central Park birding incident really pushed it mainstream and I remember all these pieces in like Slate and the Washington Post and on cable news about it.

But then something happened, where it was no longer being used to describe a white woman's behavior, it came to describe her appearance, her hair cut, her age, her attractiveness, her job, etc. Karens were ALWAYS middle aged according to the cultural zeitgeist, even though the original definition absolutely wouldn't have been limited to older women (Carolyn Bryant, the woman whose accusation got Emmett Till murdered, was 21 at the time). Karens were also unattractive, and the implication was that the reason they were so unpleasant was out of some jealousy our anger attached to this lack of attractiveness. This is inherent in Steffi Cao's essay as well, which implies that white women are mad that they are no longer seen as desirable and are using TikTok trends to reclaim that.

And even the definition of Karen behavior got expanded to encompass essentially any behavior in which a white woman over 35 complained or asked for an accommodation. This might mean a white woman complaining about service at a restaurant (whether the complaint was valid or not -- the idea was that a Karen was entitled and it applied even if the thing she was entitled to was like basic service or edible food), but it could also mean a white woman asking her elementary school to accommodate her child with special needs, or a white woman advocating for better healthcare coverage from her employer, or a white woman upset about gun violence.

Eventually a Karen was just a woman over the age of 35 who opened her mouth to express anything other than gratitude or apologies. And the people leveling accusations of Karen-hood stopped being restricted to POC and or people in the service industry who'd been treated poorly. Suddenly, men in their 20s and 30s were using Karen as an epithet to describe any older woman who annoyed them, who spoke too loudly, or who dared to have an unflattering haircut or to lack of body they desired.

I remember the day an acquaintance I follow on Twitter, a white guy in his late 30s or early 40s who is a corporate lawyer, a father, and theoretically a progressive and feminist (he voted for Obama AND Hilary), posted a photo of Kate Gosselin (look her up if you are too young to remember) with something like "When are we going to talk about the the Original Karen and her Original Karen haircut???" Now, I don't have positive associations with Kate Gosselin, who was a reality star I never paid much attention to. But that was when I realized that privileged white men had decided Karen just meant "middle aged white woman I don't want to have sex with." It's just another way to tell women that their only purpose in our culture is to look hot and be quiet and convenient.

So no, Karen and Chad are not equivalent stereotypes, sorry.

Thank you! Well said.

This is it exactly. “Karen” is a term for any middle aged white woman who won’t shut up and go away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you dare to bring yourself to anyone's attention because you are standing up for your family's needs, you've just reminded them that you're not supposed to be out in public while not hot.

I think this is part of the issue. So often these women are just demanding shit that they want but they're dressing it up as some higher social purpose.

“So often”….. No, that’s untrue. Your just using weasel words to say “nothing you’re concerned about has validity.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things that are covert racism, per NPR:

Being a white, female feminist: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1027660980/against-white-feminism-is-an-urgent-call-to-action-for-solidarity-and-justice

Being physically fit: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/893006538

and

https://www.nprillinois.org/2022-06-02/how-racism-plays-a-role-in-body-standards

Being a rape victim: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/06/24/417100496/a-good-read-a-white-woman-on-being-an-excuse-for-deadly-racism

Being a blonde murder victim: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/13/523769303/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-missing-white-women-syndrome

Womens Equality Day: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031292790/womens-equality-day-nineteenth-amendment-voting

Enjoying music from other nations: https://www.city-journal.org/npr-says-no-to-guilt-free-world-music?wallit_nosession=1

Using yellow emojis: https://www.npr.org/2022/02/09/1078977416/race-chat-emoji-skin-tone-colors

Now you know the rules, white ladies.

They just want us all to never speak and live in servitude. Honestly.

Except of course the white women working at NPR and voicing these things. They’re the “good ones,” the “allies.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

I’m a white woman and no one tells me those things (let alone constantly!!!)

Have you considered that this experience of how you feel labeled as a basic Karen may have more to do with your personality than your race?

Doesn't the fact that there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men clue you in to how pervasive misogyny is? Easier to pick on the girls than the boys.

Chad is a white man.

For a frat boy type, fine. No one is referring to 50 or 60 to business executives as Chad. It's not at all comparable to Karen.

The assertion was "there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men." I think I'd agree with your more nuanced statement here. There isn't a widely recognized word for 50 or 60 year old white male business executives.

I've never heard of anyone except for like incels on reddit or 4chan use the term "chad" to refer to a white guy. And I could be wrong, but isn't it used as a sort of compliment? Like doesn't it just mean an alpha male, someone who is successful with women and also professionaly (or at least has money)? I know it's also criticizing these guys but it also seems to be admiring in a jealous way. Like incels hate Chads, but not because they are oppressed by them -- because they want to be them or have what they have.

Compare that to use of the term Karen, which has been used by journalists and culture commentators to describe a white woma exploiting her white privilege to endanger black people. I think at first the targets were actually white women doing scary things that did in fact endanger black people (I first became aware of it to describe that woman who called the cops on the black people having a barbecue). And then the Central Park birding incident really pushed it mainstream and I remember all these pieces in like Slate and the Washington Post and on cable news about it.

But then something happened, where it was no longer being used to describe a white woman's behavior, it came to describe her appearance, her hair cut, her age, her attractiveness, her job, etc. Karens were ALWAYS middle aged according to the cultural zeitgeist, even though the original definition absolutely wouldn't have been limited to older women (Carolyn Bryant, the woman whose accusation got Emmett Till murdered, was 21 at the time). Karens were also unattractive, and the implication was that the reason they were so unpleasant was out of some jealousy our anger attached to this lack of attractiveness. This is inherent in Steffi Cao's essay as well, which implies that white women are mad that they are no longer seen as desirable and are using TikTok trends to reclaim that.

And even the definition of Karen behavior got expanded to encompass essentially any behavior in which a white woman over 35 complained or asked for an accommodation. This might mean a white woman complaining about service at a restaurant (whether the complaint was valid or not -- the idea was that a Karen was entitled and it applied even if the thing she was entitled to was like basic service or edible food), but it could also mean a white woman asking her elementary school to accommodate her child with special needs, or a white woman advocating for better healthcare coverage from her employer, or a white woman upset about gun violence.

Eventually a Karen was just a woman over the age of 35 who opened her mouth to express anything other than gratitude or apologies. And the people leveling accusations of Karen-hood stopped being restricted to POC and or people in the service industry who'd been treated poorly. Suddenly, men in their 20s and 30s were using Karen as an epithet to describe any older woman who annoyed them, who spoke too loudly, or who dared to have an unflattering haircut or to lack of body they desired.

I remember the day an acquaintance I follow on Twitter, a white guy in his late 30s or early 40s who is a corporate lawyer, a father, and theoretically a progressive and feminist (he voted for Obama AND Hilary), posted a photo of Kate Gosselin (look her up if you are too young to remember) with something like "When are we going to talk about the the Original Karen and her Original Karen haircut???" Now, I don't have positive associations with Kate Gosselin, who was a reality star I never paid much attention to. But that was when I realized that privileged white men had decided Karen just meant "middle aged white woman I don't want to have sex with." It's just another way to tell women that their only purpose in our culture is to look hot and be quiet and convenient.

So no, Karen and Chad are not equivalent stereotypes, sorry.

Thank you! Well said.

This is it exactly. “Karen” is a term for any middle aged white woman who won’t shut up and go away.

+1. And now Karen can’t even wear beige or file her nails in an oval shape without offending someone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you dare to bring yourself to anyone's attention because you are standing up for your family's needs, you've just reminded them that you're not supposed to be out in public while not hot.

I think this is part of the issue. So often these women are just demanding shit that they want but they're dressing it up as some higher social purpose.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things that are covert racism, per NPR:

Being a white, female feminist: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1027660980/against-white-feminism-is-an-urgent-call-to-action-for-solidarity-and-justice

Being physically fit: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/893006538

and

https://www.nprillinois.org/2022-06-02/how-racism-plays-a-role-in-body-standards

Being a rape victim: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/06/24/417100496/a-good-read-a-white-woman-on-being-an-excuse-for-deadly-racism

Being a blonde murder victim: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/13/523769303/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-missing-white-women-syndrome

Womens Equality Day: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031292790/womens-equality-day-nineteenth-amendment-voting

Enjoying music from other nations: https://www.city-journal.org/npr-says-no-to-guilt-free-world-music?wallit_nosession=1

Using yellow emojis: https://www.npr.org/2022/02/09/1078977416/race-chat-emoji-skin-tone-colors

Now you know the rules, white ladies.

They just want us all to never speak and live in servitude. Honestly.

Except of course the white women working at NPR and voicing these things. They’re the “good ones,” the “allies.”

The other thing that may be at play here is (I presume) the NPR ladies are younger, no? I haven't checked, but that would be my guess based on their angle of argument. So they have no idea the Enforced Invisibility Fairy will one day come for them too.

Young women accused older women of witchcraft in Salem, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Things that are covert racism, per NPR:

Being a white, female feminist: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1027660980/against-white-feminism-is-an-urgent-call-to-action-for-solidarity-and-justice

Being physically fit: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/893006538

and

https://www.nprillinois.org/2022-06-02/how-racism-plays-a-role-in-body-standards

Being a rape victim: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/06/24/417100496/a-good-read-a-white-woman-on-being-an-excuse-for-deadly-racism

Being a blonde murder victim: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/13/523769303/what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-missing-white-women-syndrome

Womens Equality Day: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031292790/womens-equality-day-nineteenth-amendment-voting

Enjoying music from other nations: https://www.city-journal.org/npr-says-no-to-guilt-free-world-music?wallit_nosession=1

Using yellow emojis: https://www.npr.org/2022/02/09/1078977416/race-chat-emoji-skin-tone-colors

Now you know the rules, white ladies.

They just want us all to never speak and live in servitude. Honestly.

Except of course the white women working at NPR and voicing these things. They’re the “good ones,” the “allies.”

The other thing that may be at play here is (I presume) the NPR ladies are younger, no? I haven't checked, but that would be my guess based on their angle of argument. So they have no idea the Enforced Invisibility Fairy will one day come for them too.

Young women accused older women of witchcraft in Salem, too.

They seem to find white women of all ages problematic.

[Anonymous]

First, never listen to NPR. Second, who cares what others think? You are your own best judge. Some twenty something girl (yes, girl) is not going to tell this woman what she's thinking or feeling. Such a joke that they get any airtime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you dare to bring yourself to anyone's attention because you are standing up for your family's needs, you've just reminded them that you're not supposed to be out in public while not hot.

I think this is part of the issue. So often these women are just demanding shit that they want but they're dressing it up as some higher social purpose.

Says who? "Everybody"? Reddit? Your mate Paul? On what authority are you speaking here? Pre-existing biases are running rampant.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

I’m a white woman and no one tells me those things (let alone constantly!!!)

Have you considered that this experience of how you feel labeled as a basic Karen may have more to do with your personality than your race?

Doesn't the fact that there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men clue you in to how pervasive misogyny is? Easier to pick on the girls than the boys.

Chad is a white man.

For a frat boy type, fine. No one is referring to 50 or 60 to business executives as Chad. It's not at all comparable to Karen.

The assertion was "there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men." I think I'd agree with your more nuanced statement here. There isn't a widely recognized word for 50 or 60 year old white male business executives.

I've never heard of anyone except for like incels on reddit or 4chan use the term "chad" to refer to a white guy. And I could be wrong, but isn't it used as a sort of compliment? Like doesn't it just mean an alpha male, someone who is successful with women and also professionaly (or at least has money)? I know it's also criticizing these guys but it also seems to be admiring in a jealous way. Like incels hate Chads, but not because they are oppressed by them -- because they want to be them or have what they have.

Compare that to use of the term Karen, which has been used by journalists and culture commentators to describe a white woma exploiting her white privilege to endanger black people. I think at first the targets were actually white women doing scary things that did in fact endanger black people (I first became aware of it to describe that woman who called the cops on the black people having a barbecue). And then the Central Park birding incident really pushed it mainstream and I remember all these pieces in like Slate and the Washington Post and on cable news about it.

But then something happened, where it was no longer being used to describe a white woman's behavior, it came to describe her appearance, her hair cut, her age, her attractiveness, her job, etc. Karens were ALWAYS middle aged according to the cultural zeitgeist, even though the original definition absolutely wouldn't have been limited to older women (Carolyn Bryant, the woman whose accusation got Emmett Till murdered, was 21 at the time). Karens were also unattractive, and the implication was that the reason they were so unpleasant was out of some jealousy our anger attached to this lack of attractiveness. This is inherent in Steffi Cao's essay as well, which implies that white women are mad that they are no longer seen as desirable and are using TikTok trends to reclaim that.

And even the definition of Karen behavior got expanded to encompass essentially any behavior in which a white woman over 35 complained or asked for an accommodation. This might mean a white woman complaining about service at a restaurant (whether the complaint was valid or not -- the idea was that a Karen was entitled and it applied even if the thing she was entitled to was like basic service or edible food), but it could also mean a white woman asking her elementary school to accommodate her child with special needs, or a white woman advocating for better healthcare coverage from her employer, or a white woman upset about gun violence.

Eventually a Karen was just a woman over the age of 35 who opened her mouth to express anything other than gratitude or apologies. And the people leveling accusations of Karen-hood stopped being restricted to POC and or people in the service industry who'd been treated poorly. Suddenly, men in their 20s and 30s were using Karen as an epithet to describe any older woman who annoyed them, who spoke too loudly, or who dared to have an unflattering haircut or to lack of body they desired.

I remember the day an acquaintance I follow on Twitter, a white guy in his late 30s or early 40s who is a corporate lawyer, a father, and theoretically a progressive and feminist (he voted for Obama AND Hilary), posted a photo of Kate Gosselin (look her up if you are too young to remember) with something like "When are we going to talk about the the Original Karen and her Original Karen haircut???" Now, I don't have positive associations with Kate Gosselin, who was a reality star I never paid much attention to. But that was when I realized that privileged white men had decided Karen just meant "middle aged white woman I don't want to have sex with." It's just another way to tell women that their only purpose in our culture is to look hot and be quiet and convenient.

So no, Karen and Chad are not equivalent stereotypes, sorry.

I agree that Karen and Chad aren't equivalent, so you don't need to apologize.

But maybe part of the reason for this is that white men and white women don't necessarily act in equivalent ways. And I don't think "Karen" is solely used to describe a white woman speaking up. It's not pure misogyny, though there is surely some of that mixed in with the term. There's an element of class and privilege tied into the term as well. "Karen" isn't a poor or a lower class woman. She's at least middle or upper class. There is a whole vibe that took off because it accurately captured something in the zeitgeist. Often enough the term is thrown around unfairly, but it's capturing something real.

And maybe middle and upper class men simply don't act out in ways that are as off-putting in the same way. Which is not to say they are above scorn - white men are routinely trashed as creeps and bros; privileged, lame, and uncool. But they haven't been "named" yet.

So because Karen is middle class she’s not allowed to speak up about the cold latte? I’m not following you.

She's obnoxious in a way that's different from how white men, poor women, and people of color are obnoxious. That's it. That's why the meme took off.

Please explain how by simply being a white woman, she is more obnoxious than other people.

This is racist. And typically ageist. It is unacceptable. Stop trying to defend hatred against white middle-aged women.

PP didn't say she's MORE obnoxious, PP said she's obnoxious in a way that's different. I agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

I’m a white woman and no one tells me those things (let alone constantly!!!)

Have you considered that this experience of how you feel labeled as a basic Karen may have more to do with your personality than your race?

Doesn't the fact that there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men clue you in to how pervasive misogyny is? Easier to pick on the girls than the boys.

Chad is a white man.

For a frat boy type, fine. No one is referring to 50 or 60 to business executives as Chad. It's not at all comparable to Karen.

The assertion was "there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men." I think I'd agree with your more nuanced statement here. There isn't a widely recognized word for 50 or 60 year old white male business executives.

I've never heard of anyone except for like incels on reddit or 4chan use the term "chad" to refer to a white guy. And I could be wrong, but isn't it used as a sort of compliment? Like doesn't it just mean an alpha male, someone who is successful with women and also professionaly (or at least has money)? I know it's also criticizing these guys but it also seems to be admiring in a jealous way. Like incels hate Chads, but not because they are oppressed by them -- because they want to be them or have what they have.

Compare that to use of the term Karen, which has been used by journalists and culture commentators to describe a white woma exploiting her white privilege to endanger black people. I think at first the targets were actually white women doing scary things that did in fact endanger black people (I first became aware of it to describe that woman who called the cops on the black people having a barbecue). And then the Central Park birding incident really pushed it mainstream and I remember all these pieces in like Slate and the Washington Post and on cable news about it.

But then something happened, where it was no longer being used to describe a white woman's behavior, it came to describe her appearance, her hair cut, her age, her attractiveness, her job, etc. Karens were ALWAYS middle aged according to the cultural zeitgeist, even though the original definition absolutely wouldn't have been limited to older women (Carolyn Bryant, the woman whose accusation got Emmett Till murdered, was 21 at the time). Karens were also unattractive, and the implication was that the reason they were so unpleasant was out of some jealousy our anger attached to this lack of attractiveness. This is inherent in Steffi Cao's essay as well, which implies that white women are mad that they are no longer seen as desirable and are using TikTok trends to reclaim that.

And even the definition of Karen behavior got expanded to encompass essentially any behavior in which a white woman over 35 complained or asked for an accommodation. This might mean a white woman complaining about service at a restaurant (whether the complaint was valid or not -- the idea was that a Karen was entitled and it applied even if the thing she was entitled to was like basic service or edible food), but it could also mean a white woman asking her elementary school to accommodate her child with special needs, or a white woman advocating for better healthcare coverage from her employer, or a white woman upset about gun violence.

Eventually a Karen was just a woman over the age of 35 who opened her mouth to express anything other than gratitude or apologies. And the people leveling accusations of Karen-hood stopped being restricted to POC and or people in the service industry who'd been treated poorly. Suddenly, men in their 20s and 30s were using Karen as an epithet to describe any older woman who annoyed them, who spoke too loudly, or who dared to have an unflattering haircut or to lack of body they desired.

I remember the day an acquaintance I follow on Twitter, a white guy in his late 30s or early 40s who is a corporate lawyer, a father, and theoretically a progressive and feminist (he voted for Obama AND Hilary), posted a photo of Kate Gosselin (look her up if you are too young to remember) with something like "When are we going to talk about the the Original Karen and her Original Karen haircut???" Now, I don't have positive associations with Kate Gosselin, who was a reality star I never paid much attention to. But that was when I realized that privileged white men had decided Karen just meant "middle aged white woman I don't want to have sex with." It's just another way to tell women that their only purpose in our culture is to look hot and be quiet and convenient.

So no, Karen and Chad are not equivalent stereotypes, sorry.

I agree that Karen and Chad aren't equivalent, so you don't need to apologize.

But maybe part of the reason for this is that white men and white women don't necessarily act in equivalent ways. And I don't think "Karen" is solely used to describe a white woman speaking up. It's not pure misogyny, though there is surely some of that mixed in with the term. There's an element of class and privilege tied into the term as well. "Karen" isn't a poor or a lower class woman. She's at least middle or upper class. There is a whole vibe that took off because it accurately captured something in the zeitgeist. Often enough the term is thrown around unfairly, but it's capturing something real.

And maybe middle and upper class men simply don't act out in ways that are as off-putting in the same way. Which is not to say they are above scorn - white men are routinely trashed as creeps and bros; privileged, lame, and uncool. But they haven't been "named" yet.

So because Karen is middle class she’s not allowed to speak up about the cold latte? I’m not following you.

She's obnoxious in a way that's different from how white men, poor women, and people of color are obnoxious. That's it. That's why the meme took off.

Please explain how by simply being a white woman, she is more obnoxious than other people.

This is racist. And typically ageist. It is unacceptable. Stop trying to defend hatred against white middle-aged women.

PP didn't say she's MORE obnoxious, PP said she's obnoxious in a way that's different. I agree.

Bottom line: when a middle-aged white woman speaks up about the cold latte or wears beige, she’s obnoxious, in some vague (read: she should shut up) way that’s different from other people.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

I’m a white woman and no one tells me those things (let alone constantly!!!)

Have you considered that this experience of how you feel labeled as a basic Karen may have more to do with your personality than your race?

Doesn't the fact that there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men clue you in to how pervasive misogyny is? Easier to pick on the girls than the boys.

Chad is a white man.

For a frat boy type, fine. No one is referring to 50 or 60 to business executives as Chad. It's not at all comparable to Karen.

The assertion was "there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men." I think I'd agree with your more nuanced statement here. There isn't a widely recognized word for 50 or 60 year old white male business executives.

I've never heard of anyone except for like incels on reddit or 4chan use the term "chad" to refer to a white guy. And I could be wrong, but isn't it used as a sort of compliment? Like doesn't it just mean an alpha male, someone who is successful with women and also professionaly (or at least has money)? I know it's also criticizing these guys but it also seems to be admiring in a jealous way. Like incels hate Chads, but not because they are oppressed by them -- because they want to be them or have what they have.

Compare that to use of the term Karen, which has been used by journalists and culture commentators to describe a white woma exploiting her white privilege to endanger black people. I think at first the targets were actually white women doing scary things that did in fact endanger black people (I first became aware of it to describe that woman who called the cops on the black people having a barbecue). And then the Central Park birding incident really pushed it mainstream and I remember all these pieces in like Slate and the Washington Post and on cable news about it.

But then something happened, where it was no longer being used to describe a white woman's behavior, it came to describe her appearance, her hair cut, her age, her attractiveness, her job, etc. Karens were ALWAYS middle aged according to the cultural zeitgeist, even though the original definition absolutely wouldn't have been limited to older women (Carolyn Bryant, the woman whose accusation got Emmett Till murdered, was 21 at the time). Karens were also unattractive, and the implication was that the reason they were so unpleasant was out of some jealousy our anger attached to this lack of attractiveness. This is inherent in Steffi Cao's essay as well, which implies that white women are mad that they are no longer seen as desirable and are using TikTok trends to reclaim that.

And even the definition of Karen behavior got expanded to encompass essentially any behavior in which a white woman over 35 complained or asked for an accommodation. This might mean a white woman complaining about service at a restaurant (whether the complaint was valid or not -- the idea was that a Karen was entitled and it applied even if the thing she was entitled to was like basic service or edible food), but it could also mean a white woman asking her elementary school to accommodate her child with special needs, or a white woman advocating for better healthcare coverage from her employer, or a white woman upset about gun violence.

Eventually a Karen was just a woman over the age of 35 who opened her mouth to express anything other than gratitude or apologies. And the people leveling accusations of Karen-hood stopped being restricted to POC and or people in the service industry who'd been treated poorly. Suddenly, men in their 20s and 30s were using Karen as an epithet to describe any older woman who annoyed them, who spoke too loudly, or who dared to have an unflattering haircut or to lack of body they desired.

I remember the day an acquaintance I follow on Twitter, a white guy in his late 30s or early 40s who is a corporate lawyer, a father, and theoretically a progressive and feminist (he voted for Obama AND Hilary), posted a photo of Kate Gosselin (look her up if you are too young to remember) with something like "When are we going to talk about the the Original Karen and her Original Karen haircut???" Now, I don't have positive associations with Kate Gosselin, who was a reality star I never paid much attention to. But that was when I realized that privileged white men had decided Karen just meant "middle aged white woman I don't want to have sex with." It's just another way to tell women that their only purpose in our culture is to look hot and be quiet and convenient.

So no, Karen and Chad are not equivalent stereotypes, sorry.

I agree that Karen and Chad aren't equivalent, so you don't need to apologize.

But maybe part of the reason for this is that white men and white women don't necessarily act in equivalent ways. And I don't think "Karen" is solely used to describe a white woman speaking up. It's not pure misogyny, though there is surely some of that mixed in with the term. There's an element of class and privilege tied into the term as well. "Karen" isn't a poor or a lower class woman. She's at least middle or upper class. There is a whole vibe that took off because it accurately captured something in the zeitgeist. Often enough the term is thrown around unfairly, but it's capturing something real.

And maybe middle and upper class men simply don't act out in ways that are as off-putting in the same way. Which is not to say they are above scorn - white men are routinely trashed as creeps and bros; privileged, lame, and uncool. But they haven't been "named" yet.

So because Karen is middle class she’s not allowed to speak up about the cold latte? I’m not following you.

She's obnoxious in a way that's different from how white men, poor women, and people of color are obnoxious. That's it. That's why the meme took off.

Please explain how by simply being a white woman, she is more obnoxious than other people.

This is racist. And typically ageist. It is unacceptable. Stop trying to defend hatred against white middle-aged women.

PP didn't say she's MORE obnoxious, PP said she's obnoxious in a way that's different. I agree.

Again, please explain in what way a white woman is obnoxious in a "different" way from everyone else.

As multiple PPs have pointed out, this is just the BS answer that really means white women are not allowed to stick up for themselves or voice opinions. To do so = obnoxious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

I’m a white woman and no one tells me those things (let alone constantly!!!)

Have you considered that this experience of how you feel labeled as a basic Karen may have more to do with your personality than your race?

Doesn't the fact that there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men clue you in to how pervasive misogyny is? Easier to pick on the girls than the boys.

Chad is a white man.

For a frat boy type, fine. No one is referring to 50 or 60 to business executives as Chad. It's not at all comparable to Karen.

The assertion was "there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men." I think I'd agree with your more nuanced statement here. There isn't a widely recognized word for 50 or 60 year old white male business executives.

I've never heard of anyone except for like incels on reddit or 4chan use the term "chad" to refer to a white guy. And I could be wrong, but isn't it used as a sort of compliment? Like doesn't it just mean an alpha male, someone who is successful with women and also professionaly (or at least has money)? I know it's also criticizing these guys but it also seems to be admiring in a jealous way. Like incels hate Chads, but not because they are oppressed by them -- because they want to be them or have what they have.

Compare that to use of the term Karen, which has been used by journalists and culture commentators to describe a white woma exploiting her white privilege to endanger black people. I think at first the targets were actually white women doing scary things that did in fact endanger black people (I first became aware of it to describe that woman who called the cops on the black people having a barbecue). And then the Central Park birding incident really pushed it mainstream and I remember all these pieces in like Slate and the Washington Post and on cable news about it.

But then something happened, where it was no longer being used to describe a white woman's behavior, it came to describe her appearance, her hair cut, her age, her attractiveness, her job, etc. Karens were ALWAYS middle aged according to the cultural zeitgeist, even though the original definition absolutely wouldn't have been limited to older women (Carolyn Bryant, the woman whose accusation got Emmett Till murdered, was 21 at the time). Karens were also unattractive, and the implication was that the reason they were so unpleasant was out of some jealousy our anger attached to this lack of attractiveness. This is inherent in Steffi Cao's essay as well, which implies that white women are mad that they are no longer seen as desirable and are using TikTok trends to reclaim that.

And even the definition of Karen behavior got expanded to encompass essentially any behavior in which a white woman over 35 complained or asked for an accommodation. This might mean a white woman complaining about service at a restaurant (whether the complaint was valid or not -- the idea was that a Karen was entitled and it applied even if the thing she was entitled to was like basic service or edible food), but it could also mean a white woman asking her elementary school to accommodate her child with special needs, or a white woman advocating for better healthcare coverage from her employer, or a white woman upset about gun violence.

Eventually a Karen was just a woman over the age of 35 who opened her mouth to express anything other than gratitude or apologies. And the people leveling accusations of Karen-hood stopped being restricted to POC and or people in the service industry who'd been treated poorly. Suddenly, men in their 20s and 30s were using Karen as an epithet to describe any older woman who annoyed them, who spoke too loudly, or who dared to have an unflattering haircut or to lack of body they desired.

I remember the day an acquaintance I follow on Twitter, a white guy in his late 30s or early 40s who is a corporate lawyer, a father, and theoretically a progressive and feminist (he voted for Obama AND Hilary), posted a photo of Kate Gosselin (look her up if you are too young to remember) with something like "When are we going to talk about the the Original Karen and her Original Karen haircut???" Now, I don't have positive associations with Kate Gosselin, who was a reality star I never paid much attention to. But that was when I realized that privileged white men had decided Karen just meant "middle aged white woman I don't want to have sex with." It's just another way to tell women that their only purpose in our culture is to look hot and be quiet and convenient.

So no, Karen and Chad are not equivalent stereotypes, sorry.

I agree that Karen and Chad aren't equivalent, so you don't need to apologize.

But maybe part of the reason for this is that white men and white women don't necessarily act in equivalent ways. And I don't think "Karen" is solely used to describe a white woman speaking up. It's not pure misogyny, though there is surely some of that mixed in with the term. There's an element of class and privilege tied into the term as well. "Karen" isn't a poor or a lower class woman. She's at least middle or upper class. There is a whole vibe that took off because it accurately captured something in the zeitgeist. Often enough the term is thrown around unfairly, but it's capturing something real.

And maybe middle and upper class men simply don't act out in ways that are as off-putting in the same way. Which is not to say they are above scorn - white men are routinely trashed as creeps and bros; privileged, lame, and uncool. But they haven't been "named" yet.

So because Karen is middle class she’s not allowed to speak up about the cold latte? I’m not following you.

She's obnoxious in a way that's different from how white men, poor women, and people of color are obnoxious. That's it. That's why the meme took off.

Please explain how by simply being a white woman, she is more obnoxious than other people.

This is racist. And typically ageist. It is unacceptable. Stop trying to defend hatred against white middle-aged women.

PP didn't say she's MORE obnoxious, PP said she's obnoxious in a way that's different. I agree.

DP.

OK, you’re going to need to define this “difference.” Let me guess, it’s that the words are coming out of her mouth while she’s white and middle-aged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I listened to the podcast.

So now my shortish oval nails (they’re more resistant to chipping than square cut) are an aggressive power symbol? And my nails are deeply connected to Miley Cyrus and the movement along a minority of white women to stay at home? Because it’s all part of an organized plot by white women getting together (Where? How?) to exclude nonwhites from having oval nails? So the solution is that we all where latex body suits?

I can’t even.

I listened to it too and this comment is a wild misrepresentation of what was said. Do I think she reached on making some connections? Sure! But no more than any other cultural think piece. Beauty trends have always related to power. There’s nothing in the interview that accuses women with oval nails of being racist. I’m white and have oval nails (honestly they’re just bit into an oval a lot of the time) and I don’t feel attacked by it. Sometimes hair is just hair, but there’s a lot that goes into what society sees as “attractive” hair, right? It’s not an attack to discuss that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

I’m a white woman and no one tells me those things (let alone constantly!!!)

Have you considered that this experience of how you feel labeled as a basic Karen may have more to do with your personality than your race?

Doesn't the fact that there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men clue you in to how pervasive misogyny is? Easier to pick on the girls than the boys.

Chad is a white man.

For a frat boy type, fine. No one is referring to 50 or 60 to business executives as Chad. It's not at all comparable to Karen.

The assertion was "there is a widely recognized word for white women but not white men." I think I'd agree with your more nuanced statement here. There isn't a widely recognized word for 50 or 60 year old white male business executives.

I've never heard of anyone except for like incels on reddit or 4chan use the term "chad" to refer to a white guy. And I could be wrong, but isn't it used as a sort of compliment? Like doesn't it just mean an alpha male, someone who is successful with women and also professionaly (or at least has money)? I know it's also criticizing these guys but it also seems to be admiring in a jealous way. Like incels hate Chads, but not because they are oppressed by them -- because they want to be them or have what they have.

Compare that to use of the term Karen, which has been used by journalists and culture commentators to describe a white woma exploiting her white privilege to endanger black people. I think at first the targets were actually white women doing scary things that did in fact endanger black people (I first became aware of it to describe that woman who called the cops on the black people having a barbecue). And then the Central Park birding incident really pushed it mainstream and I remember all these pieces in like Slate and the Washington Post and on cable news about it.

But then something happened, where it was no longer being used to describe a white woman's behavior, it came to describe her appearance, her hair cut, her age, her attractiveness, her job, etc. Karens were ALWAYS middle aged according to the cultural zeitgeist, even though the original definition absolutely wouldn't have been limited to older women (Carolyn Bryant, the woman whose accusation got Emmett Till murdered, was 21 at the time). Karens were also unattractive, and the implication was that the reason they were so unpleasant was out of some jealousy our anger attached to this lack of attractiveness. This is inherent in Steffi Cao's essay as well, which implies that white women are mad that they are no longer seen as desirable and are using TikTok trends to reclaim that.

And even the definition of Karen behavior got expanded to encompass essentially any behavior in which a white woman over 35 complained or asked for an accommodation. This might mean a white woman complaining about service at a restaurant (whether the complaint was valid or not -- the idea was that a Karen was entitled and it applied even if the thing she was entitled to was like basic service or edible food), but it could also mean a white woman asking her elementary school to accommodate her child with special needs, or a white woman advocating for better healthcare coverage from her employer, or a white woman upset about gun violence.

Eventually a Karen was just a woman over the age of 35 who opened her mouth to express anything other than gratitude or apologies. And the people leveling accusations of Karen-hood stopped being restricted to POC and or people in the service industry who'd been treated poorly. Suddenly, men in their 20s and 30s were using Karen as an epithet to describe any older woman who annoyed them, who spoke too loudly, or who dared to have an unflattering haircut or to lack of body they desired.

I remember the day an acquaintance I follow on Twitter, a white guy in his late 30s or early 40s who is a corporate lawyer, a father, and theoretically a progressive and feminist (he voted for Obama AND Hilary), posted a photo of Kate Gosselin (look her up if you are too young to remember) with something like "When are we going to talk about the the Original Karen and her Original Karen haircut???" Now, I don't have positive associations with Kate Gosselin, who was a reality star I never paid much attention to. But that was when I realized that privileged white men had decided Karen just meant "middle aged white woman I don't want to have sex with." It's just another way to tell women that their only purpose in our culture is to look hot and be quiet and convenient.

So no, Karen and Chad are not equivalent stereotypes, sorry.

I agree that Karen and Chad aren't equivalent, so you don't need to apologize.

But maybe part of the reason for this is that white men and white women don't necessarily act in equivalent ways. And I don't think "Karen" is solely used to describe a white woman speaking up. It's not pure misogyny, though there is surely some of that mixed in with the term. There's an element of class and privilege tied into the term as well. "Karen" isn't a poor or a lower class woman. She's at least middle or upper class. There is a whole vibe that took off because it accurately captured something in the zeitgeist. Often enough the term is thrown around unfairly, but it's capturing something real.

And maybe middle and upper class men simply don't act out in ways that are as off-putting in the same way. Which is not to say they are above scorn - white men are routinely trashed as creeps and bros; privileged, lame, and uncool. But they haven't been "named" yet.

So because Karen is middle class she’s not allowed to speak up about the cold latte? I’m not following you.

She's obnoxious in a way that's different from how white men, poor women, and people of color are obnoxious. That's it. That's why the meme took off.

Please explain how by simply being a white woman, she is more obnoxious than other people.

This is racist. And typically ageist. It is unacceptable. Stop trying to defend hatred against white middle-aged women.

PP didn't say she's MORE obnoxious, PP said she's obnoxious in a way that's different. I agree.

DP.

OK, you’re going to need to define this “difference.” Let me guess, it’s that the words are coming out of her mouth while she’s white and middle-aged.

Don't forget pretentious and entitled.