Study shows that 350k/year is barely scrapping by as middle class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok let's use logic here.

Take the average household income and house price from 1985 in Fairfax or Montgomery county. Then take into account that the average job had a pension, so take that you need to save at least 15 percent of your income to retire at age 55. Also factor in that in order to get an average job you need to have a college degree which wasn't that case in 1985 and is a major cost.

What you end up with is that the cost of living that is very high because of no more pension, high housing and education costs. That's the reality of today and why people feel like they are worse off then their parents even though they appear to be earning a lot. Think about why there is so much outrage and why people want to make America great again , which probably can never happen again.
https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/retirement-calculator.aspx

Here's the problem. While Fairfax and Montgomery counties were middle class in 1985, they are not any more and have not been for 20 years. In 1985, the population of the region was about 3M. In 2018, the population was 6.22M, more than double. And the housing stock has not doubled in that time. The housing stock has gone up about 25-50%. So you have double the number of people trying to fit into 1.5 the number of homes.

That means that those with more means will get the homes closer in. Those with less means will have to move further out or into the less desirable areas. The middle class now live in Reston, Oakton, Burke, Ft Washington, Clinton, Largo, Lanham, Greenbelt, Laurel, College Park, Beltsville. To get bigger homes, they move to Centreville, Chantilly, Waldorf, Brandywine, Upper Marlboro, Bowie.

So, while it is true that you need to factor in retirement savings which is now self-funded through IRAs and 401Ks, you can't still use Fairfax County and Montgomery County as your standard for middle class because the middle class does not buy homes in those towns any more,.

I think I agree with you but having a hard time following your neighborhood selections. Reston, Oakton and Burke are not MC neighborhoods

What would you consider those neighborhoods?

Well they are all in Fairfax county which by your definition is not MC, so I would call them UMC.

[Anonymous]

Also Centreville and Chantilly are in Fairfax and not MC though Centreville is probably borderline MC.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:
+1 to most of this although I don't think those daycare costs are the norm at all. We are in Silver Spring and I looked at a LOT of daycares, but the absolute lowest I found was an in-home for $250 per week (maybe it went down to $200 for a toddler, but I can't remember). That's still $10k for one kid, and in this case it was a bit sketchy and we ended up at one that cost $300/week instead (which is still pretty reasonable in this area). Where the heck is someone finding a licensed daycare for $5000 per year?

I'm the one who posted. Here are some. All are fairly close to Silver Spring, MD. You are paying a premium to live in Montgomery County. That premium comes with increased costs on everything if you want to stay local. If you are willing to branch out some (especially going to PG County), you'll find inexpensive options. Also note that for the most part, the church-based preschool/child care are cheaper than centers. It used to be that in-home based childcare was the cheapest, but I have noticed that lately many of the in-home childcares have raised their prices.

Note, that these are all under the average costs, but I know families who send their kids to both the first two and they are good facilities. The families are typical middle class families that earn between $100-150K per year and have to find reasonable cost child care.

Hyattsville: https://www.mystandrew.org/preschool/
College Park: http://www.ucnskids.org/tuition-and-fees
Beltsville: https://www.hopechristianacademy.org/apply/tuition-costs
Laurel: https://christianacademyoflaurel.org/admissions/
Laurel: https://www.care.com/b/l/kristland-family-daycare/laurel-md

All of the above are no more than $600/month and between $5K-7K per student per year. The family that had two for about $10K had their younger 2 year old only in the 3-day a week program with grandmother watching him one day a week and Mom on a 4x10 hour day schedule watching him one day a week.

This is the cheapest I found in Silver Spring ($8400/year for 1st child, $7500/year for sibling discount)
https://fcs.school/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Financial-Info-Sheet-2019.20-updated-1.pdf

Christian Academy of Laurel is school year only. Great if you are a teacher, bad if you work 12 months a year like most people

The mystandrew link says the preschool is only open 9:15-1:15 each day. That is why it is so cheap. That is for SAHMs,not working moms.

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

It works for her because her family provides childcare on the other days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These posts are showing why people are sick of wealthy people. Surviving? Barely making it? While owning a 1.8M home? At first, any normal person would think that article was a joke, but it isn't a joke. Disconnect from wealthy people about their reality and their snide attitude towards MC and poor is one of the reasons this society will be taken down. Probably in a violent revolution, or an uprising of the poor people fed up with being told by the rich to just work, "look I am struggling too! in my 1.8M home." I kind of hope it happens, like a full on violent take over. Like invading your privileged 1.8 M houses, you know like the revolution in Tsarist Russia where all the greedy, self serving morons like OP are taken down by the real people that live in a real world. I think Trump is one of the steps in this process of bringing down the U.S. empire.

+10000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

Does your friend work on Tuesdays and Thursdays like the rest of us?

Not quite. As I said, she works 4 10 hour days a week (flex week schedule) and takes Tuesdays off. Her mother watches her son on Thursdays. Alternatively, she could have worked Thursdays and had her 2 year old son in the mixed age class with his brother for another $190. Then he would have been $695 per month for 4 days a week daycare.

So what is your point exactly? Yes, people who have flexible schedules can pay for less childcare. People who have grandparents who sometimes watch their kids for free can also pay less in childcare.

The point is that you don't have to pay $28K to have your child in daycare in this area like the one person up-thread suggested. The point is that the true middle class makes choices between compromises because it's what they can afford. Yes, maybe they can afford more than $10K a year. Maybe they'll make compromises and spend as much as $15-18K per year (up to $1500 per month), but they aren't spending $28K per year as the one person suggested. And the true middle class does not make $350 or even $250K per year.

Most people around here need childcare five days a week and Grandma isn't around to help. Not a choice.

She made that choice for her second son. Her older son is in 5 day a week daycare there for $755 per month.

That is a direction contradiction of something you posted earlier. Get your story straight:

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

Does your friend work on Tuesdays and Thursdays like the rest of us?

Not quite. As I said, she works 4 10 hour days a week (flex week schedule) and takes Tuesdays off. Her mother watches her son on Thursdays. Alternatively, she could have worked Thursdays and had her 2 year old son in the mixed age class with his brother for another $190. Then he would have been $695 per month for 4 days a week daycare.

So what is your point exactly? Yes, people who have flexible schedules can pay for less childcare. People who have grandparents who sometimes watch their kids for free can also pay less in childcare.

The point is that you don't have to pay $28K to have your child in daycare in this area like the one person up-thread suggested. The point is that the true middle class makes choices between compromises because it's what they can afford. Yes, maybe they can afford more than $10K a year. Maybe they'll make compromises and spend as much as $15-18K per year (up to $1500 per month), but they aren't spending $28K per year as the one person suggested. And the true middle class does not make $350 or even $250K per year.

Most people around here need childcare five days a week and Grandma isn't around to help. Not a choice.

You do not see it as a choice because your choices were among things you could afford. Families with significantly lower incomes cannot afford your choices so they figure something else out.

We have a 350K HHI. We live in NWDC in a nice house (950K mortgage) and we are not MC, that article and people defending it on this thread are ridiculous. We spend too much on kids activities and theater tickets but we have a $900/month grocery budget, drive one car and save for college and retirement. When we take a big vacation we probably spend 1500/day all in but we don’t do it that often. We enjoy lots of things and appreciate what we have. We would like to save more but completely see that the fact we do not is the result of our choices. Sometimes we wish we had more but that doesn’t mean we are middle class.

Well here is my point. You, as someone with a HHI of 350k, don't know what you are talking about. You say you know about the choices real middle class people make, but can't find a daycare in the entire DMV that provides full time care 5 days a week for less than 10k a year, as you claimed you could. You tell us about your friend's mom. Would she like to watch my children for free too? I don't get any free childcare. Both my parents and DH's parents live more than 1000 miles away. According to you that is my "choice" and I should "figure something else out." Sounds like another rich person who doesn't actually know anything about the middle class.

Affordable daycares don't appear magically as you claim. The "choices" that most people have are this:
1. One parent quit their job.
2. Find the cheapest daycare you can, which will still cost more than $10k/year for an older child even in PG county and probably twice that for younger kid in a more expensive county and pay for the shortfall in living expenses with credit cards and hope to pay them off when kids start public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

Does your friend work on Tuesdays and Thursdays like the rest of us?

Not quite. As I said, she works 4 10 hour days a week (flex week schedule) and takes Tuesdays off. Her mother watches her son on Thursdays. Alternatively, she could have worked Thursdays and had her 2 year old son in the mixed age class with his brother for another $190. Then he would have been $695 per month for 4 days a week daycare.

So what is your point exactly? Yes, people who have flexible schedules can pay for less childcare. People who have grandparents who sometimes watch their kids for free can also pay less in childcare.

The point is that you don't have to pay $28K to have your child in daycare in this area like the one person up-thread suggested. The point is that the true middle class makes choices between compromises because it's what they can afford. Yes, maybe they can afford more than $10K a year. Maybe they'll make compromises and spend as much as $15-18K per year (up to $1500 per month), but they aren't spending $28K per year as the one person suggested. And the true middle class does not make $350 or even $250K per year.

Most people around here need childcare five days a week and Grandma isn't around to help. Not a choice.

You do not see it as a choice because your choices were among things you could afford. Families with significantly lower incomes cannot afford your choices so they figure something else out.

We have a 350K HHI. We live in NWDC in a nice house (950K mortgage) and we are not MC, that article and people defending it on this thread are ridiculous. We spend too much on kids activities and theater tickets but we have a $900/month grocery budget, drive one car and save for college and retirement. When we take a big vacation we probably spend 1500/day all in but we don’t do it that often. We enjoy lots of things and appreciate what we have. We would like to save more but completely see that the fact we do not is the result of our choices. Sometimes we wish we had more but that doesn’t mean we are middle class.

You might be upper middle class, but you are still middle class. Yes, you have alot of choices. But you have a million dollar mortgage. You can't afford to stop working because you will lose your house. You can't afford college or retirement (yet) either. If you lose your job, you lose your SES. You are a wage slave, just like everyone in the middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

Does your friend work on Tuesdays and Thursdays like the rest of us?

Not quite. As I said, she works 4 10 hour days a week (flex week schedule) and takes Tuesdays off. Her mother watches her son on Thursdays. Alternatively, she could have worked Thursdays and had her 2 year old son in the mixed age class with his brother for another $190. Then he would have been $695 per month for 4 days a week daycare.

So what is your point exactly? Yes, people who have flexible schedules can pay for less childcare. People who have grandparents who sometimes watch their kids for free can also pay less in childcare.

The point is that you don't have to pay $28K to have your child in daycare in this area like the one person up-thread suggested. The point is that the true middle class makes choices between compromises because it's what they can afford. Yes, maybe they can afford more than $10K a year. Maybe they'll make compromises and spend as much as $15-18K per year (up to $1500 per month), but they aren't spending $28K per year as the one person suggested. And the true middle class does not make $350 or even $250K per year.

Most people around here need childcare five days a week and Grandma isn't around to help. Not a choice.

You do not see it as a choice because your choices were among things you could afford. Families with significantly lower incomes cannot afford your choices so they figure something else out.

We have a 350K HHI. We live in NWDC in a nice house (950K mortgage) and we are not MC, that article and people defending it on this thread are ridiculous. We spend too much on kids activities and theater tickets but we have a $900/month grocery budget, drive one car and save for college and retirement. When we take a big vacation we probably spend 1500/day all in but we don’t do it that often. We enjoy lots of things and appreciate what we have. We would like to save more but completely see that the fact we do not is the result of our choices. Sometimes we wish we had more but that doesn’t mean we are middle class.

You might be upper middle class, but you are still middle class. Yes, you have alot of choices. But you have a million dollar mortgage. You can't afford to stop working because you will lose your house. You can't afford college or retirement (yet) either. If you lose your job, you lose your SES. You are a wage slave, just like everyone in the middle class.

P.S. On your income you could easily become rich if your prioritized saving for a few years. But you won't because you take your income for granted, just like all of the people you are criticizing. If your *really* appreciated how privileged you are, you would actually save money so that if your magical unicorn salary goes away you wouldn't have to sell your house and could still pay for your kids college. You have a thoroughly middle class mindset. Not rich.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

Does your friend work on Tuesdays and Thursdays like the rest of us?

Not quite. As I said, she works 4 10 hour days a week (flex week schedule) and takes Tuesdays off. Her mother watches her son on Thursdays. Alternatively, she could have worked Thursdays and had her 2 year old son in the mixed age class with his brother for another $190. Then he would have been $695 per month for 4 days a week daycare.

So what is your point exactly? Yes, people who have flexible schedules can pay for less childcare. People who have grandparents who sometimes watch their kids for free can also pay less in childcare.

The point is that you don't have to pay $28K to have your child in daycare in this area like the one person up-thread suggested. The point is that the true middle class makes choices between compromises because it's what they can afford. Yes, maybe they can afford more than $10K a year. Maybe they'll make compromises and spend as much as $15-18K per year (up to $1500 per month), but they aren't spending $28K per year as the one person suggested. And the true middle class does not make $350 or even $250K per year.

Most people around here need childcare five days a week and Grandma isn't around to help. Not a choice.

You do not see it as a choice because your choices were among things you could afford. Families with significantly lower incomes cannot afford your choices so they figure something else out.

We have a 350K HHI. We live in NWDC in a nice house (950K mortgage) and we are not MC, that article and people defending it on this thread are ridiculous. We spend too much on kids activities and theater tickets but we have a $900/month grocery budget, drive one car and save for college and retirement. When we take a big vacation we probably spend 1500/day all in but we don’t do it that often. We enjoy lots of things and appreciate what we have. We would like to save more but completely see that the fact we do not is the result of our choices. Sometimes we wish we had more but that doesn’t mean we are middle class.

You might be upper middle class, but you are still middle class. Yes, you have alot of choices. But you have a million dollar mortgage. You can't afford to stop working because you will lose your house. You can't afford college or retirement (yet) either. If you lose your job, you lose your SES. You are a wage slave, just like everyone in the middle class.

I think you have mistaken this poster. They are calling themselves rich at 350k HHI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

Does your friend work on Tuesdays and Thursdays like the rest of us?

Not quite. As I said, she works 4 10 hour days a week (flex week schedule) and takes Tuesdays off. Her mother watches her son on Thursdays. Alternatively, she could have worked Thursdays and had her 2 year old son in the mixed age class with his brother for another $190. Then he would have been $695 per month for 4 days a week daycare.

So what is your point exactly? Yes, people who have flexible schedules can pay for less childcare. People who have grandparents who sometimes watch their kids for free can also pay less in childcare.

The point is that you don't have to pay $28K to have your child in daycare in this area like the one person up-thread suggested. The point is that the true middle class makes choices between compromises because it's what they can afford. Yes, maybe they can afford more than $10K a year. Maybe they'll make compromises and spend as much as $15-18K per year (up to $1500 per month), but they aren't spending $28K per year as the one person suggested. And the true middle class does not make $350 or even $250K per year.

Most people around here need childcare five days a week and Grandma isn't around to help. Not a choice.

She made that choice for her second son. Her older son is in 5 day a week daycare there for $755 per month.

That is a direction contradiction of something you posted earlier. Get your story straight:

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo.

Plus it’s not a full day program. PP was trying to sell us a fantasy lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok let's use logic here.

Take the average household income and house price from 1985 in Fairfax or Montgomery county. Then take into account that the average job had a pension, so take that you need to save at least 15 percent of your income to retire at age 55. Also factor in that in order to get an average job you need to have a college degree which wasn't that case in 1985 and is a major cost.

What you end up with is that the cost of living that is very high because of no more pension, high housing and education costs. That's the reality of today and why people feel like they are worse off then their parents even though they appear to be earning a lot. Think about why there is so much outrage and why people want to make America great again , which probably can never happen again.
https://www.bankrate.com/calculators/retirement/retirement-calculator.aspx

Here's the problem. While Fairfax and Montgomery counties were middle class in 1985, they are not any more and have not been for 20 years. In 1985, the population of the region was about 3M. In 2018, the population was 6.22M, more than double. And the housing stock has not doubled in that time. The housing stock has gone up about 25-50%. So you have double the number of people trying to fit into 1.5 the number of homes.

That means that those with more means will get the homes closer in. Those with less means will have to move further out or into the less desirable areas. The middle class now live in Reston, Oakton, Burke, Ft Washington, Clinton, Largo, Lanham, Greenbelt, Laurel, College Park, Beltsville. To get bigger homes, they move to Centreville, Chantilly, Waldorf, Brandywine, Upper Marlboro, Bowie.

So, while it is true that you need to factor in retirement savings which is now self-funded through IRAs and 401Ks, you can't still use Fairfax County and Montgomery County as your standard for middle class because the middle class does not buy homes in those towns any more,.

First off, there is a lot disparity in Montgomery county, likely Fairfax county too but I don’t know it as well. I don’t know how you could call the eastern part of MoCo UMC overall. Many schools have a large FARMs population. Those receiving assistance do not have high incomes.

But your point about the housing shortage is valid and warps perceptions about what people think about class. They think, if my $200k HHI is supposedly in the top 5% for the area, why doesn’t that get me into N. Arlington, Bethesda, Chevy Chase? In many other cities being in the top 5% gets you a nice house in a neighborhood feeding into the highest performing schools.

[Anonymous]

This isn’t a “study”, it’s an anecdote of how even $350k can be spent in full if you’re not careful. Middle class families are not spending that much on a mortgage, Cars, food, vacations, entertainment, even the insurance policies. That stuff gets cut drastically during the years of high child care costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This isn’t a “study”, it’s an anecdote of how even $350k can be spent in full if you’re not careful. Middle class families are not spending that much on a mortgage, Cars, food, vacations, entertainment, even the insurance policies. That stuff gets cut drastically during the years of high child care costs.

You are right but the terms middle class and scraping by were added in and we’ve been arguing about them ever since. There have been a few definitions of middle class offered and now we have lower MC, MC and upper MC but those are less clear and seem to be defined by what types of vacations you take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

ucnskids.org is 2 days a week only. Again, ok for SAMHs, not suitable for working moms.

That's for the 2's class.

For the 4 yo class, my friend has her 4 yo in the T-Th class ($565) and the M or T mixed year class ($190). So she pays $755 for the month for the 4 yo. Her 2 year old (about to turn 3) goes M-W-F for $505, about to go down to $485 for the month.

I can assure you that my friend, a working mom does find it suitable.

Does your friend work on Tuesdays and Thursdays like the rest of us?

Not quite. As I said, she works 4 10 hour days a week (flex week schedule) and takes Tuesdays off. Her mother watches her son on Thursdays. Alternatively, she could have worked Thursdays and had her 2 year old son in the mixed age class with his brother for another $190. Then he would have been $695 per month for 4 days a week daycare.

So what is your point exactly? Yes, people who have flexible schedules can pay for less childcare. People who have grandparents who sometimes watch their kids for free can also pay less in childcare.

The point is that you don't have to pay $28K to have your child in daycare in this area like the one person up-thread suggested. The point is that the true middle class makes choices between compromises because it's what they can afford. Yes, maybe they can afford more than $10K a year. Maybe they'll make compromises and spend as much as $15-18K per year (up to $1500 per month), but they aren't spending $28K per year as the one person suggested. And the true middle class does not make $350 or even $250K per year.

Most people around here need childcare five days a week and Grandma isn't around to help. Not a choice.

You do not see it as a choice because your choices were among things you could afford. Families with significantly lower incomes cannot afford your choices so they figure something else out.

We have a 350K HHI. We live in NWDC in a nice house (950K mortgage) and we are not MC, that article and people defending it on this thread are ridiculous. We spend too much on kids activities and theater tickets but we have a $900/month grocery budget, drive one car and save for college and retirement. When we take a big vacation we probably spend 1500/day all in but we don’t do it that often. We enjoy lots of things and appreciate what we have. We would like to save more but completely see that the fact we do not is the result of our choices. Sometimes we wish we had more but that doesn’t mean we are middle class.

You might be upper middle class, but you are still middle class. Yes, you have alot of choices. But you have a million dollar mortgage. You can't afford to stop working because you will lose your house. You can't afford college or retirement (yet) either. If you lose your job, you lose your SES. You are a wage slave, just like everyone in the middle class.

I think you have mistaken this poster. They are calling themselves rich at 350k HHI.

I thunk the PP got it right and is defining middle class as you still need a huge paycheck to support your life. Rich would be having large investments that produce enough income on their own to pay for your lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I thunk the PP got it right and is defining middle class as you still need a huge paycheck to support your life. Rich would be having large investments that produce enough income on their own to pay for your lifestyle.

That's ridiculous. You mean someone who earns $1mil, but has a $700K lifestyle (less taxes), so has little in investments, is not considered rich?