Asian-American Groups Accuse Brown, Dartmouth, and Yale of Bias in Admissions

[Anonymous]

^^ sorry. TJ is 70% Asian. That was a typo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

so what's the problem? AA's need a leg up. The Asians don't. That's clear. All legal and lawful.

[Anonymous]

Come to think of it, maybe we should re-define "Asians" The groups complaining are Indian, Chinese and Korean. So maybe there should be a category for them, like
ICK's (Indian, Chinese, Koreans), and other Asian countries should not be lumped in with that group. Thus no presumption of "over-representation" for the non-ICK Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

so what's the problem? AA's need a leg up. The Asians don't. That's clear. All legal and lawful.

THAT, my friend, IS institutionalized racism.

Many Asians need a leg up too, same if not more than many AAs.

Learn some history and geography.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

so what's the problem? AA's need a leg up. The Asians don't. That's clear. All legal and lawful.

THAT, my friend, IS institutionalized racism.

Many Asians need a leg up too, same if not more than many AAs.

Learn some history and geography.

^ Dude, take it up with the Supreme Court.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

so what's the problem? AA's need a leg up. The Asians don't. That's clear. All legal and lawful.

THAT, my friend, IS institutionalized racism.

Many Asians need a leg up too, same if not more than many AAs.

Learn some history and geography.

^ Dude, take it up with the Supreme Court.

Well, that's a long journey, but Asian-American groups have already started it, hence this very thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

so what's the problem? AA's need a leg up. The Asians don't. That's clear. All legal and lawful.

THAT, my friend, IS institutionalized racism.

Many Asians need a leg up too, same if not more than many AAs.

Learn some history and geography.

^ Dude, take it up with the Supreme Court.

Well, that's a long journey, but Asian-American groups have already started it, hence this very thread

No. The groups filed a complaint with DOJ and DOE, not a lawsuit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

so what's the problem? AA's need a leg up. The Asians don't. That's clear. All legal and lawful.

THAT, my friend, IS institutionalized racism.

Many Asians need a leg up too, same if not more than many AAs.

Learn some history and geography.

^ Dude, take it up with the Supreme Court.

Well, that's a long journey, but Asian-American groups have already started it, hence this very thread

No. The groups filed a complaint with DOJ and DOE, not a lawsuit.

p.s. These groups asked the Feds to "investigate" their allegations. All they have is a hunch this might be happening; no evidence. A long journey indeed.

[Anonymous]

There are less than 20,000 slots at the Ivy League schools. There are many many people with "perfect scores." No one will be able to prove discrimination for a group that is over-represented. In addition, there is no lawsuit because private institutions have greater leeway than public institutions and have said they will admit holistically.

[Anonymous]

I think there is a bit of a fixation on perfect scores being the sole criteria. Then there is a reference to low scoring African Americans, as if they are the sole reason. Again, I hear and see a lot of misdirected racial animus and I will keep calling the poster out.

If a African American or White is admitted with 1400-1500 SAT scores and great grades, and other achievements, yes these individuals are often admitted ahead of Asians with 1600 SAT scores and 20 APs. The reasons for this is that most of these "lower scoring" individuals matriculate successfully from these environments as they are smart enough to succeed there, even without "perfect scores." In addition, the institutions have deemed a diverse class is preferable. Diverse in terms of race, gender, ethnicity, geographic, education and interests. I know a very smart girl who was admitted to Ivy League schools who is an amazing track and field athlete. Another boy I know is a brilliant artist. Both are great students but do not have "perfect scores."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this play out, on a smaller scale, this year for TJ admissions. Our next door neighbors DD & our DD applied. Our neighbor, 1st generation Asian, did 3 years of 4 hour a week drill and kill on the TJ entrance test. I'm sure her test scores were great. But, she did that to the exclusion of everything else. She dropped her instrument in 8th grade so that she could study more (when I asked her why Sshe wasn't at the first concert of the year she said, "my parents thought I needed to focus on TJ this year") and had no other extracurriculars to take her focus away from studying for the TJ test.

Meanwhile, DD doubled down on her music 8th grade year, and joined a community music group in addition to playing in school. And did a very demanding academic extracurricular, where he received regional awards. DD carried a 3.9 in MS (one A-). I'm sure our neighbor carried this or a 4.0. DD got a good, but not off the charts, score on the math section of the TJ test (aced the verbal). Our neighbor probably had a higher score, at least in math (I didn't ask). But DD was admitted and our neighbor was not.

I feel awful for our neighbor, who is a really nice kid. But I think her parents did her a disservice. When it came time for essays, which count as much or more than the test, there was nothing there. And I think DD will go to TJ, counting with her instrument, continue with her extracurricular, and contribute a lot to classroom discussion and the TJ community. Even if our neighbor had a higher math score, I think this was the right result. The Asian American group suing TJ (which is 79% Asian) believe that admission should be based solely on the math section of the TJ test. It is just two completely different viewpoints.

Yes, there are two different viewpoints, but that's not the main complaint by Asian Americans.

Let's use the example of your first generation Asian neighbor, and let's say he WON'T get in. What Asian Americans are complaining about is, why is that, when another African American boy from the same neighborhood and with the same exact lack of worthy extracurriculars and with 10% worse scores is ADMITTED?
It's clear racial bias, all because supposedly a) all Asians are the same and b) all of them, regardless of country/ religion/ language/ SES are "overrepresented."

so what's the problem? AA's need a leg up. The Asians don't. That's clear. All legal and lawful.

THAT, my friend, IS institutionalized racism.

Many Asians need a leg up too, same if not more than many AAs.

Learn some history and geography.

in what way? asians don't need a leg up. an equal treatment is all we are asking for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a bit of a fixation on perfect scores being the sole criteria. Then there is a reference to low scoring African Americans, as if they are the sole reason. Again, I hear and see a lot of misdirected racial animus and I will keep calling the poster out.

If a African American or White is admitted with 1400-1500 SAT scores and great grades, and other achievements, yes these individuals are often admitted ahead of Asians with 1600 SAT scores and 20 APs. The reasons for this is that most of these "lower scoring" individuals matriculate successfully from these environments as they are smart enough to succeed there, even without "perfect scores." In addition, the institutions have deemed a diverse class is preferable. Diverse in terms of race, gender, ethnicity, geographic, education and interests. I know a very smart girl who was admitted to Ivy League schools who is an amazing track and field athlete. Another boy I know is a brilliant artist. Both are great students but do not have "perfect scores."

When I worked in admissions there were numerous instances where applicants were denied, in part, because they interviewed poorly. Contrary to what test prep centers and U.S. News and Report school rankings make you believe so, grades truly are just piece of the pie. Making conclusions on bias off of them is reckless at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^ there are literally hundreds of these accepts/rejects posts on CC. not sure if hand-picking 3 examples to fit your point proves anything.

Take it any way you want, twist and distort any way you want. I could care less. Bottom line is that the holistic method works and affords an opportunity to those who would never get a shot IF used properly.

You can victimize all you want but the bottom line is that there are just so many seats, no one race is getting all of them, and I applaud the holistic approach. Otherwise the Asian student would not have been accepted over other Asians with PERFECT scores of which there are many.

Finished.

I hope the Asians now attending Ivies get involved with activities. I went to an Ivy with lots of Asians but most contributed very little to the campus atmosphere. All most did was study. A few were better assimilated and actually got involved with things, but most might as well have taken distance-learning classes.

And how many Asians did you actually hang out with? I went to an Ivy in a very elite program where three quarter were Asians. No one was involved in a lousy fraternity where people drank too much, but we did all sorts of activities ranging from business associations to women's groups to acapella groups. Now we are all top finance/law/start up/hedge fund professionals. Do we threaten you?

You bored me then, and it sounds like you're just as boring now. Please don't try to ruin our schools - and, yes, our ancestors founded them, not yours - any more than you have already. I'm sure there are schools in China where you can learn to code, hack websites, and short mortgage bonds.

Not very nice a all, and uncalled for.
Having said that, the Asians have no more "right" to get into the Ivies than anyone else.
They have Cal. Berkeley, U.Va. etc.
And it troubles me a bit they're fighting for an even higher rate of over-representation than they already have.
Their gains of course must come at the expense of URMs and athletes, and legacies (which are lawful so far as I know).

UVa? Nice try.

? could you explain what you mean? Half of TJ's graduating class goes to UVA - like a couple of hundred kids a year. Most of these are Asian. So not sure what you mean.

Asians aim higher.

Asian-Americans do not consider UVA a top school. UVA is a cheap back up if you do not get into a top school. I'm from the Northeast and went to Harvard. Asians and Asian-Americans are better accepted and respected in the north.

[Anonymous]

That's fine. No one begrudges you the right to feel that way about UVA. Except every year I hear about kids that only apply to Ivys and a few top states or LACs as a back-up. In terms of college admissions, UVa is not a safety. Aim high if you want but it is simply bad advice to tell a child, Asian or otherwise, to only apply to Ivys and highly selective schools with no real back ups.