The death of Allie Hart and the need for safer streets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

So you’re telling me if I have a medical emergency behind the wheel and I hit and kill someone, I am liable?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

So you’re telling me if I have a medical emergency behind the wheel and I hit and kill someone, I am liable?

The "drivers should get to kill people without consequences" lobby has arrived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

Pedestrians also have a responsibility to act reasonably.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

Pedestrians also have a responsibility to act reasonably.

No, that is not the law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

Pedestrians also have a responsibility to act reasonably.

No, that is not the law.

Yes, it is. You can’t try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop. You can’t stagger drunkenly into the street where there is no crosswalk and expect that others will be able to avoid hitting you. I urge you not to test this out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

Pedestrians also have a responsibility to act reasonably.

No, that is not the law.

Yes, it is. You can’t try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop. You can’t stagger drunkenly into the street where there is no crosswalk and expect that others will be able to avoid hitting you. I urge you not to test this out.

"You can't try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop" is not a law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

So you’re telling me if I have a medical emergency behind the wheel and I hit and kill someone, I am liable?

The "drivers should get to kill people without consequences" lobby has arrived.

You didn’t answer the question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

Pedestrians also have a responsibility to act reasonably.

No, that is not the law.

Yes, it is. You can’t try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop. You can’t stagger drunkenly into the street where there is no crosswalk and expect that others will be able to avoid hitting you. I urge you not to test this out.

"You can't try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop" is not a law.

In this scenario, the driver would unlikely be charged and the drunk pedestrian would most likely be dead. Law or no law.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know what actually happened?

It seems like the dad shouldn't have let a small child bike across the crosswalk alone. But is that what happened?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

So you’re telling me if I have a medical emergency behind the wheel and I hit and kill someone, I am liable?

Of course not. You wouldn't even be liable if you killed a five-year-old on a bicycle who was in a crosswalk in a residential neighborhood at an intersection with stop signs in the middle of the afternoon. People would say, "Oh, it's a tragic accident" and "I blame the parents." If you want to murder someone, hit them with your car and you'll get off scot-free. The police will say the dead person was at fault. Just make sure not to be drunk or going 20 mph over the speed limit while you're doing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what actually happened?

It seems like the dad shouldn't have let a small child bike across the crosswalk alone. But is that what happened?

The driver hit the child in a crosswalk and killed her. That's what happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

Pedestrians also have a responsibility to act reasonably.

No, that is not the law.

Yes, it is. You can’t try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop. You can’t stagger drunkenly into the street where there is no crosswalk and expect that others will be able to avoid hitting you. I urge you not to test this out.

"You can't try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop" is not a law.

The law is that pedestrians need to act reasonably.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what actually happened?

It seems like the dad shouldn't have let a small child bike across the crosswalk alone. But is that what happened?

The driver hit the child in a crosswalk and killed her. That's what happened.

Like everything else in the world, it’s that simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

Nah, I am going to go ahead and continue advocating for cars and trucks to have more responsibility placed on them. I don’t think I will in my lifetime see a point where a five year old can bike down a sidewalk with zero risk but I sure as heck am not going to concede that child cyclists should have personal responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes accidents happen. It’s certainly possible for there to be a pedestrian/cyclist fatality where the driver isn’t at fault. I am in favor of traffic calming measures, btw.

Which is exactly why we need to call them "crashes" or "collisions", not accidents. "Accidents happen", but crashes are preventable.

Not all “collisions” are preventable. Ask anyone who’s been in a collision with someone who had a medical emergency. Or who hit a deer or had some road debris hit their car. I once was hit by a bouncing tire on the beltway. My roommate hit a bike courier who swerved into her car when someone suddenly opened a car door. Sometimes bad things happen.

"Sometimes bad things happen" is not an attitude we take about workplace accidents, or hospital accidents, or gas explosions, or airplane accidents, or... Just road accidents. I wonder why.

By the way, dooring is 100% preventable.

Household accidents happen all the time. And while dooring is preventable, my roommate the driver who hit the cyclist had no way of preventing it. Your premise is that all drivers are always culpable.

No, my premise is that crashes are preventable.

Household accidents are also preventable. That's why we have, for example, child-resistant tops for medication bottles, GFCI outlets in kitchens and bathrooms, and water heaters that don't go hotter than 140 degrees.

You really think child resistant tops have completely eliminated medication related accidents?
Article right here says it - “child-resistant packaging is it's not childproof. It's actually intended to slow the child down."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-many-children-die-accidental-medicine-poisoning-safe-kids-worldwide-report/

You're reaching. There is not one thing that will prevent 100% of everything. But in general, we focus on prevention. We don't shrug our shoulders and say "accidents happen."

The point is you can do everything possible to help prevent an accident, yet ACCIDENTS STILL HAPPEN.
No one is saying shrug your shoulders. What we are saying is that we need to both make streets safer AND not put our children in dangerous situations.
Those who say accidents are preventable and it’s always the drivers fault are completely delusional.

Sure, but a child on a street is not inherently a dangerous situation. It is only dangerous when you add vehicles and drivers who don't pay attention or care if they hit someone. This is why so many on this thread (and the grief-stricken mother) are advocating for streets that are livable for all and not just drivers.

Um, would you like to join us in reality? I, too, would love for my children to be gamboling in a meadow where the only traffic is Farmer Ted and his kindly horse, but people are living and walking around vehicles and need to act accordingly. We can advocate for 20 mph speed limits and bump outs (andI do!) and still recognize that nobody should step out between cars without looking or allow their young children to bike into crosswalks alone. This magical thinking that a child on a street is not inherently dangerous is bonkers.

Speed limit is already 20mph on residential streets. I agree these posters (or poster) are living in La-La Land by placing all responsibility for keeping kids safe on drivers. If you choose to live in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that there are cars and bikes and trucks and scooters and vans and walkers and everyone has a role in keeping themselves and others safe. You can be both for traffic calming measures and personal responsibility on the part of everyone at the same time.

If you choose to drive in a city, you need to do so with the understanding that you have an obligation to not hit people, regardless of what those people might be doing. If you don't like it, you should find another way to get around. The good news is that in a city, there are plenty of ways to get around that don't involve you driving.

As for the speed limit .

“Obligation not to hit people.” You are completely delusional. There is no rational conversation to be had with this level of cluelessness.

It's literally the law. As a driver, you should be aware of the law.

Pedestrians also have a responsibility to act reasonably.

No, that is not the law.

Yes, it is. You can’t try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop. You can’t stagger drunkenly into the street where there is no crosswalk and expect that others will be able to avoid hitting you. I urge you not to test this out.

"You can't try to cross 295 and expect drivers to stop" is not a law.

The law is that pedestrians need to act reasonably.

Pedestrians are not allowed on 295. They are allowed in crosswalk