Study: "Discussions of D.C. public school options in an online forum" (yes, this one)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In general, whenever you ask people to take a critical look at themselves- the reaction is defensive.

To ask DCUM users if a critique of DCUM users is accurate is naturally not going to end well. Asking people if they are in privileged bubble is not going to go well. Because if you are in a bubble, by definition you do not know that you are.

In general I have found many on this board to be totally blind to the realities of DC Public Schools and blind to your own motivations behind how you move in this space. Is it segregation- kinda sorta. But mostly in the way that we would all select calm.caring, and safe places for our own children.

I think the rub comes in with it is juxtaposed with the self identification as a liberal community with a strong NIMBY action plan.

I'm not at all blind to the fact that my kids have advantages that a lot of kids in DC don't have, including the ability to leave. I just reject to the pejorative framing of "privileged bubble." I grew up in a lot of ways not in a bubble, and it meant I saw and experienced stuff as a kid that I think most parents would want to protect their kids from. Yes, I want to keep my kids from that. But not enough that we're moving to Bethesda (or Tenleytown), just enough that we do put a lot of thought into how to, while following the rules in DC, make decisions that we think are good for our kids. Also, the schools I'm avoiding aren't schools which would be considered average or adequate in most parts of the country - it's not like I'm insisting that my kids have Mandarin or gifted classes and nothing else will do, I just want my kids to have an actual peer group and classes that reflect that.

But also, shouldn't you want to keep all kids from that? The study is pointing out that when white, upper income people act out of their individual self-interest, the result is racially segregated schools. Segregation perpetuates systemic racism, so either that's something that bothers you, or not.

1) My kids live in a racially integrated neighborhood and go to a racially integrated school.
2) Me sending my kids to Eastern is not going to give all kids the things I want for my kids, it's just going to be a bad experience for my kids. And if a big group of white parents decided to get together and send their kids there, the same people who criticize us for not doing that would now be criticizing us for that.
3) If DCPS is interested in making more schools integrated, they have many tools at their disposal. They choose not to do that, and I make my choices accordingly.

What a disrespectful and uneducated comment about Eastern's teachers and staff, not to mention their student body.

Eastern literally had ZERO percent of kids meet Math targets in the last PARCC, and 7% for English. There is no way anyone with options sends their kids there. No way. I think it's terrible the school performs so terribly, but that's not disrespectful.

Maybe using test scores as a barometer for the student experience is the problem.

Cool. Let's use something else. Half the kids were absent 21+ days in 2019-2020, and 70% were in the broader "truant" category of 10+ absences. It was 20% at Wilson.

https://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS%20Annual%20Attendance%20Report%20SY%202019-2020.pdf

Sounds like your kid would get great small group instruction! Seriously, why do we think its okay to turn our back on schools with bad stats? You know what makes those stats better? Parents that clearly care this much start sending their kids to these schools.

And then if you're really successful at it, they make a podcast about how racist you are for starting a French program!

I'm not 'turning my back' on anything, because that implies that I am somehow responsible for the state of DCPS schools, and that my kids have some obligation to fix it. But I'm not and they don't- which is good, because they also can't. It's not like I want to move when we get to middle school if we don't lottery into a charter we like. That's not like, a fun or inexpensive thing for us. But my kids are actual people, and just like I don't consider my choice of where to work purely on the basis of 'how do I make society better even if it's terrible for me', neither am I going to treat their education like that. If DCPS cares about integrating a broader range of schools, they could do that in a heartbeat via different curricular choices. They are not, because they do not care. Why am I supposed to care more than they do?

+!

Until you have put your children into this system, I'm just not interested in your opinion on this system.

[Anonymous]

One of the more egregious points in this shoddy paper is their major point that “test score and star releases don’t change the DCUM conversation.”

And they use that to conclude DCUM doesn’t care about true quality.

Which makes the assumption that TEST SCORES REFLECT TRUE SCHOOL QUALITY.

The more accurate conclusion is “DCUM posters incorporate more than test scores in their evaluation of a school.”


This addiction to testing from education researchers is really a problem. Imagine buying a home based only on its “walk score.” Or valuing a thinktank based only on its citation numbers.

So much of school quality is teacher intangibles. Brookings doesn’t hire based on numbers alone and we shouldn’t choose schools based on impoverished data and bad research metrics.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:So now the Brookland inbounds schools are "poorly-performing" - Burroughs is a 4-star school, higher than the greatly-discussed Stokes PCS. By "poorly-performing" do you mean mostly Black? Or do you have some other metric to dismiss Burroughs as poorly-performing?

If it's only about charter vs inbound, then how come the majority-Black charters (like the 4-star DC Prep) in Brookland aren't discussed here?

Guess what? According to the report, Burroughs gets discussed here almost as much as Shining Stars. So there is interest in the higher-performing schools. How much time have you spent discussing low-performing schools outside your neighborhood? I don't know a lot about DC Prep but I thought that it had a specific mission to provide for underserved communities, which doesn't really describe our user base.

[Anonymous]

The bigger issue here is probably this:

DC is unusual in that it attracts a lot of high-achieving people from across the country -- the sort who got good grades in school, who went to prestigious colleges and who now want (expect) the same for their kids.

But the reality of DC is that most schools here, beyond elementary years, are just bad. Some are unbelievably bad. The city of DC has a very high tolerance for very low performing schools.

I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from. It's not race. It's more of a class issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue here is probably this:

DC is unusual in that it attracts a lot of high-achieving people from across the country -- the sort who got good grades in school, who went to prestigious colleges and who now want (expect) the same for their kids.

But the reality of DC is that most schools here, beyond elementary years, are just bad. Some are unbelievably bad. The city of DC has a very high tolerance for very low performing schools.

I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from. It's not race. It's more of a class issue.

Not every successful high-achieving person went to a prestigious college. And dismissing it as a class issue ignores that race often tracks class. No one wants low performing schools but until we as a society address social issues we will have them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue here is probably this:

DC is unusual in that it attracts a lot of high-achieving people from across the country -- the sort who got good grades in school, who went to prestigious colleges and who now want (expect) the same for their kids.

But the reality of DC is that most schools here, beyond elementary years, are just bad. Some are unbelievably bad. The city of DC has a very high tolerance for very low performing schools.

I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from. It's not race. It's more of a class issue.

IME, they are inextricably intertwined. I’m not sure if anywhere else in the country has almost complete separation by race and class—white, affluent newcomers on the one hand and black, largely poor/working class DC natives on the other. For example, I’ve talked to plenty of black middle/UMC Families like my own who’ve had assumptions made about them based on this state of affairs, by both teachers/staff and white families. There wouldn’t be as much tension if it were class alone that mattered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In general, whenever you ask people to take a critical look at themselves- the reaction is defensive.

To ask DCUM users if a critique of DCUM users is accurate is naturally not going to end well. Asking people if they are in privileged bubble is not going to go well. Because if you are in a bubble, by definition you do not know that you are.

In general I have found many on this board to be totally blind to the realities of DC Public Schools and blind to your own motivations behind how you move in this space. Is it segregation- kinda sorta. But mostly in the way that we would all select calm.caring, and safe places for our own children.

I think the rub comes in with it is juxtaposed with the self identification as a liberal community with a strong NIMBY action plan.

I'm not at all blind to the fact that my kids have advantages that a lot of kids in DC don't have, including the ability to leave. I just reject to the pejorative framing of "privileged bubble." I grew up in a lot of ways not in a bubble, and it meant I saw and experienced stuff as a kid that I think most parents would want to protect their kids from. Yes, I want to keep my kids from that. But not enough that we're moving to Bethesda (or Tenleytown), just enough that we do put a lot of thought into how to, while following the rules in DC, make decisions that we think are good for our kids. Also, the schools I'm avoiding aren't schools which would be considered average or adequate in most parts of the country - it's not like I'm insisting that my kids have Mandarin or gifted classes and nothing else will do, I just want my kids to have an actual peer group and classes that reflect that.

But also, shouldn't you want to keep all kids from that? The study is pointing out that when white, upper income people act out of their individual self-interest, the result is racially segregated schools. Segregation perpetuates systemic racism, so either that's something that bothers you, or not.

1) My kids live in a racially integrated neighborhood and go to a racially integrated school.
2) Me sending my kids to Eastern is not going to give all kids the things I want for my kids, it's just going to be a bad experience for my kids. And if a big group of white parents decided to get together and send their kids there, the same people who criticize us for not doing that would now be criticizing us for that.
3) If DCPS is interested in making more schools integrated, they have many tools at their disposal. They choose not to do that, and I make my choices accordingly.

What a disrespectful and uneducated comment about Eastern's teachers and staff, not to mention their student body.

Eastern literally had ZERO percent of kids meet Math targets in the last PARCC, and 7% for English. There is no way anyone with options sends their kids there. No way. I think it's terrible the school performs so terribly, but that's not disrespectful.

Maybe using test scores as a barometer for the student experience is the problem.

Cool. Let's use something else. Half the kids were absent 21+ days in 2019-2020, and 70% were in the broader "truant" category of 10+ absences. It was 20% at Wilson.

https://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS%20Annual%20Attendance%20Report%20SY%202019-2020.pdf

Sounds like your kid would get great small group instruction! Seriously, why do we think its okay to turn our back on schools with bad stats? You know what makes those stats better? Parents that clearly care this much start sending their kids to these schools.

And then if you're really successful at it, they make a podcast about how racist you are for starting a French program!

I'm not 'turning my back' on anything, because that implies that I am somehow responsible for the state of DCPS schools, and that my kids have some obligation to fix it. But I'm not and they don't- which is good, because they also can't. It's not like I want to move when we get to middle school if we don't lottery into a charter we like. That's not like, a fun or inexpensive thing for us. But my kids are actual people, and just like I don't consider my choice of where to work purely on the basis of 'how do I make society better even if it's terrible for me', neither am I going to treat their education like that. If DCPS cares about integrating a broader range of schools, they could do that in a heartbeat via different curricular choices. They are not, because they do not care. Why am I supposed to care more than they do?

+!

Until you have put your children into this system, I'm just not interested in your opinion on this system.

This and this.

Does the study's lead author have kids? In what schools? This is the kind of intel DCUM is great for

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In general, whenever you ask people to take a critical look at themselves- the reaction is defensive.

To ask DCUM users if a critique of DCUM users is accurate is naturally not going to end well. Asking people if they are in privileged bubble is not going to go well. Because if you are in a bubble, by definition you do not know that you are.

In general I have found many on this board to be totally blind to the realities of DC Public Schools and blind to your own motivations behind how you move in this space. Is it segregation- kinda sorta. But mostly in the way that we would all select calm.caring, and safe places for our own children.

I think the rub comes in with it is juxtaposed with the self identification as a liberal community with a strong NIMBY action plan.

I'm not at all blind to the fact that my kids have advantages that a lot of kids in DC don't have, including the ability to leave. I just reject to the pejorative framing of "privileged bubble." I grew up in a lot of ways not in a bubble, and it meant I saw and experienced stuff as a kid that I think most parents would want to protect their kids from. Yes, I want to keep my kids from that. But not enough that we're moving to Bethesda (or Tenleytown), just enough that we do put a lot of thought into how to, while following the rules in DC, make decisions that we think are good for our kids. Also, the schools I'm avoiding aren't schools which would be considered average or adequate in most parts of the country - it's not like I'm insisting that my kids have Mandarin or gifted classes and nothing else will do, I just want my kids to have an actual peer group and classes that reflect that.

But also, shouldn't you want to keep all kids from that? The study is pointing out that when white, upper income people act out of their individual self-interest, the result is racially segregated schools. Segregation perpetuates systemic racism, so either that's something that bothers you, or not.

1) My kids live in a racially integrated neighborhood and go to a racially integrated school.
2) Me sending my kids to Eastern is not going to give all kids the things I want for my kids, it's just going to be a bad experience for my kids. And if a big group of white parents decided to get together and send their kids there, the same people who criticize us for not doing that would now be criticizing us for that.
3) If DCPS is interested in making more schools integrated, they have many tools at their disposal. They choose not to do that, and I make my choices accordingly.

What a disrespectful and uneducated comment about Eastern's teachers and staff, not to mention their student body.

Eastern literally had ZERO percent of kids meet Math targets in the last PARCC, and 7% for English. There is no way anyone with options sends their kids there. No way. I think it's terrible the school performs so terribly, but that's not disrespectful.

Maybe using test scores as a barometer for the student experience is the problem.

Cool. Let's use something else. Half the kids were absent 21+ days in 2019-2020, and 70% were in the broader "truant" category of 10+ absences. It was 20% at Wilson.

https://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS%20Annual%20Attendance%20Report%20SY%202019-2020.pdf

Sounds like your kid would get great small group instruction! Seriously, why do we think its okay to turn our back on schools with bad stats? You know what makes those stats better? Parents that clearly care this much start sending their kids to these schools.

And then if you're really successful at it, they make a podcast about how racist you are for starting a French program!

I'm not 'turning my back' on anything, because that implies that I am somehow responsible for the state of DCPS schools, and that my kids have some obligation to fix it. But I'm not and they don't- which is good, because they also can't. It's not like I want to move when we get to middle school if we don't lottery into a charter we like. That's not like, a fun or inexpensive thing for us. But my kids are actual people, and just like I don't consider my choice of where to work purely on the basis of 'how do I make society better even if it's terrible for me', neither am I going to treat their education like that. If DCPS cares about integrating a broader range of schools, they could do that in a heartbeat via different curricular choices. They are not, because they do not care. Why am I supposed to care more than they do?

Wow you don't live in a community do you but yet you claim to be in DC?

If DCPS offered different curricular choices (I'm sure you have looked at all the middle school ones, understand education pedagogy, etc) you would be thrilled to have your child get on a bus and go cross town to get to that becon on a hill that gets 5 stars and challenges them.

Your children and you are actually people and nothing you do affects anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue here is probably this:

DC is unusual in that it attracts a lot of high-achieving people from across the country -- the sort who got good grades in school, who went to prestigious colleges and who now want (expect) the same for their kids.

But the reality of DC is that most schools here, beyond elementary years, are just bad. Some are unbelievably bad. The city of DC has a very high tolerance for very low performing schools.

I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from. It's not race. It's more of a class issue.

Not every successful high-achieving person went to a prestigious college. And dismissing it as a class issue ignores that race often tracks class. No one wants low performing schools but until we as a society address social issues we will have them.

People *say* they dont want low performing schools but many if not most people dont actually care all that much about school.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Not every successful high-achieving person went to a prestigious college. And dismissing it as a class issue ignores that race often tracks class. No one wants low performing schools but until we as a society address social issues we will have them.

I just did an interview with Perry Stein of the Washington Post. One point I made is that you can't expect parents who are just trying to get the best education for their kids to engage in a social revolution and overcome 100 years of segregation (I am roughly dating that to when the black people were kicked out of Fort Reno). Given the obstacles involved, it is a little much to expect parents, let alone a bunch of posters on a web forum, to be responsible for the change. I don't know what it will take to bring about change, but I am pretty sure it is not a report that analyzes word frequency.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue here is probably this:

DC is unusual in that it attracts a lot of high-achieving people from across the country -- the sort who got good grades in school, who went to prestigious colleges and who now want (expect) the same for their kids.

But the reality of DC is that most schools here, beyond elementary years, are just bad. Some are unbelievably bad. The city of DC has a very high tolerance for very low performing schools.

I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from. It's not race. It's more of a class issue.

IME, they are inextricably intertwined. I’m not sure if anywhere else in the country has almost complete separation by race and class—white, affluent newcomers on the one hand and black, largely poor/working class DC natives on the other. For example, I’ve talked to plenty of black middle/UMC Families like my own who’ve had assumptions made about them based on this state of affairs, by both teachers/staff and white families. There wouldn’t be as much tension if it were class alone that mattered.

I noticed when DCUM first started that UMC black families are frequently left out of the conversation. This report does that too by assuming that anyone wanting to get into one of the popular schools is white. I keep coming back to this point that the entire topic is complex and nuanced. It cannot be adequately addressed why a word frequency analysis.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue here is probably this:

DC is unusual in that it attracts a lot of high-achieving people from across the country -- the sort who got good grades in school, who went to prestigious colleges and who now want (expect) the same for their kids.

But the reality of DC is that most schools here, beyond elementary years, are just bad. Some are unbelievably bad. The city of DC has a very high tolerance for very low performing schools.

I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from. It's not race. It's more of a class issue.

IME, they are inextricably intertwined. I’m not sure if anywhere else in the country has almost complete separation by race and class—white, affluent newcomers on the one hand and black, largely poor/working class DC natives on the other. For example, I’ve talked to plenty of black middle/UMC Families like my own who’ve had assumptions made about them based on this state of affairs, by both teachers/staff and white families. There wouldn’t be as much tension if it were class alone that mattered.

I noticed when DCUM first started that UMC black families are frequently left out of the conversation. This report does that too by assuming that anyone wanting to get into one of the popular schools is white. I keep coming back to this point that the entire topic is complex and nuanced. It cannot be adequately addressed why a word frequency analysis.

Most UMC black families probably have more in common with UMC white families than they do with black families in Anacostia.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not every successful high-achieving person went to a prestigious college. And dismissing it as a class issue ignores that race often tracks class. No one wants low performing schools but until we as a society address social issues we will have them.

I just did an interview with Perry Stein of the Washington Post. One point I made is that you can't expect parents who are just trying to get the best education for their kids to engage in a social revolution and overcome 100 years of segregation (I am roughly dating that to when the black people were kicked out of Fort Reno). Given the obstacles involved, it is a little much to expect parents, let alone a bunch of posters on a web forum, to be responsible for the change. I don't know what it will take to bring about change, but I am pretty sure it is not a report that analyzes word frequency.

Uh, I am not defending that garbage study.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not every successful high-achieving person went to a prestigious college. And dismissing it as a class issue ignores that race often tracks class. No one wants low performing schools but until we as a society address social issues we will have them.

I just did an interview with Perry Stein of the Washington Post. One point I made is that you can't expect parents who are just trying to get the best education for their kids to engage in a social revolution and overcome 100 years of segregation (I am roughly dating that to when the black people were kicked out of Fort Reno). Given the obstacles involved, it is a little much to expect parents, let alone a bunch of posters on a web forum, to be responsible for the change. I don't know what it will take to bring about change, but I am pretty sure it is not a report that analyzes word frequency.

The only people who think parents should actively choose to send their kids to a school they dont like, because of some perceived progress that would supposedly make towards social justice, are people who don't have kids. No parent in the history of parenting has ever made that choice.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue here is probably this:

DC is unusual in that it attracts a lot of high-achieving people from across the country -- the sort who got good grades in school, who went to prestigious colleges and who now want (expect) the same for their kids.

But the reality of DC is that most schools here, beyond elementary years, are just bad. Some are unbelievably bad. The city of DC has a very high tolerance for very low performing schools.

I think that's where a lot of the tension comes from. It's not race. It's more of a class issue.

IME, they are inextricably intertwined. I’m not sure if anywhere else in the country has almost complete separation by race and class—white, affluent newcomers on the one hand and black, largely poor/working class DC natives on the other. For example, I’ve talked to plenty of black middle/UMC Families like my own who’ve had assumptions made about them based on this state of affairs, by both teachers/staff and white families. There wouldn’t be as much tension if it were class alone that mattered.

I noticed when DCUM first started that UMC black families are frequently left out of the conversation. This report does that too by assuming that anyone wanting to get into one of the popular schools is white. I keep coming back to this point that the entire topic is complex and nuanced. It cannot be adequately addressed why a word frequency analysis.

PP here. Some black families I know who’ve experienced poor treatment or low expectations for their kids have since left DCPS or charter for private/parochial schools. I still know plenty at schools like Shepherd and Eaton, even a few at Lafayette and Janney— but many have self-selected out of the system from the beginning. I know a few more who were active in their school communities but are leaving this year for private due to COVID. So I think they’re not often part of the discussions here partly because there are not a great number of them in public/charters.