Two paths to magnet program at Richard Montgomery High School

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Nope you are arguing for arguments sake.

When you buy "whole milk" for your toddler and the grocer actually sells you 2% milk, can you really prove your kids brain development was hindered by years of drinking 2% milk instead of whole milk that you believed to have been buying. A systemic downgrade is not discernible from year to year. It is only perceived over many years. It is hard to prove - unless all parties are game for the experiment. In this case, school and RM will not be willing to test the theory. In any case, students should not be put into any experiment. They should be provided authentic magnet education and currently they are not. This is bad faith practice by the county and school. Dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty.

Evidence of harm, please.

There's no need for a randomized controlled trial. Even just "My kid says that the x number of regular RM kids in my kid's Y IB class didn't get z, and we had to keep explaining it." Or "Only [small percentage] of the regular RM kids got their IB diploma."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope you are arguing for arguments sake.

When you buy "whole milk" for your toddler and the grocer actually sells you 2% milk, can you really prove your kids brain development was hindered by years of drinking 2% milk instead of whole milk that you believed to have been buying. A systemic downgrade is not discernible from year to year. It is only perceived over many years. It is hard to prove - unless all parties are game for the experiment. In this case, school and RM will not be willing to test the theory. In any case, students should not be put into any experiment. They should be provided authentic magnet education and currently they are not. This is bad faith practice by the county and school. Dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty.

Evidence of harm, please.

There's no need for a randomized controlled trial. Even just "My kid says that the x number of regular RM kids in my kid's Y IB class didn't get z, and we had to keep explaining it." Or "Only [small percentage] of the regular RM kids got their IB diploma."

Oh, you are asking for anecdotal stories. That is not called evidence though.

Anecdotal information is that there are several of my kids' friends have expressed concern that their new classmates are not staying at the pace of the class. One instance this year is the #of commentaries in IB English class has decreased from 10 to 4. You already saw someone else posted about SAT average decrease. Disruptions in the classes have increased. IB Diploma rate has decreased in the recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope you are arguing for arguments sake.

When you buy "whole milk" for your toddler and the grocer actually sells you 2% milk, can you really prove your kids brain development was hindered by years of drinking 2% milk instead of whole milk that you believed to have been buying. A systemic downgrade is not discernible from year to year. It is only perceived over many years. It is hard to prove - unless all parties are game for the experiment. In this case, school and RM will not be willing to test the theory. In any case, students should not be put into any experiment. They should be provided authentic magnet education and currently they are not. This is bad faith practice by the county and school. Dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty.

Evidence of harm, please.

There's no need for a randomized controlled trial. Even just "My kid says that the x number of regular RM kids in my kid's Y IB class didn't get z, and we had to keep explaining it." Or "Only [small percentage] of the regular RM kids got their IB diploma."

Oh, you are asking for anecdotal stories. That is not called evidence though.

Anecdotal information is that there are several of my kids' friends have expressed concern that their new classmates are not staying at the pace of the class. One instance this year is the #of commentaries in IB English class has decreased from 10 to 4. You already saw someone else posted about SAT average decrease. Disruptions in the classes have increased. IB Diploma rate has decreased in the recent years.

I'm glad we're finally getting somewhere, after 16 pages. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope you are arguing for arguments sake.

When you buy "whole milk" for your toddler and the grocer actually sells you 2% milk, can you really prove your kids brain development was hindered by years of drinking 2% milk instead of whole milk that you believed to have been buying. A systemic downgrade is not discernible from year to year. It is only perceived over many years. It is hard to prove - unless all parties are game for the experiment. In this case, school and RM will not be willing to test the theory. In any case, students should not be put into any experiment. They should be provided authentic magnet education and currently they are not. This is bad faith practice by the county and school. Dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty.

Evidence of harm, please.

There's no need for a randomized controlled trial. Even just "My kid says that the x number of regular RM kids in my kid's Y IB class didn't get z, and we had to keep explaining it." Or "Only [small percentage] of the regular RM kids got their IB diploma."

The facts: The percentage of RMIB kids receiving diplomas has fallen (93% class of 2015 to 88% class of 2017). The SAT scores appear to have dropped by approximately 150 points which is huge- the drop in the writing score is especially noticeable since this is a perceived strength of the program.
The classroom atmosphere and expectations is harder to quantify. Do your children attend magnet programs? If you have spent any time in these classrooms you will know that the teacher is able to cover material rapidly which means they can spend more time on deep discussion or cover material that would not normally be covered. Teachers can also expect students to cope with assignments that are very challenging. If however 20% of the class is not at the same level of preparation and/or ability, any responsible and empathetic teacher would have to slow down and do less. This would happen slowly, gradually and subtly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope you are arguing for arguments sake.

When you buy "whole milk" for your toddler and the grocer actually sells you 2% milk, can you really prove your kids brain development was hindered by years of drinking 2% milk instead of whole milk that you believed to have been buying. A systemic downgrade is not discernible from year to year. It is only perceived over many years. It is hard to prove - unless all parties are game for the experiment. In this case, school and RM will not be willing to test the theory. In any case, students should not be put into any experiment. They should be provided authentic magnet education and currently they are not. This is bad faith practice by the county and school. Dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty.

Evidence of harm, please.

There's no need for a randomized controlled trial. Even just "My kid says that the x number of regular RM kids in my kid's Y IB class didn't get z, and we had to keep explaining it." Or "Only [small percentage] of the regular RM kids got their IB diploma."

Oh, you are asking for anecdotal stories. That is not called evidence though.

Anecdotal information is that there are several of my kids' friends have expressed concern that their new classmates are not staying at the pace of the class. One instance this year is the #of commentaries in IB English class has decreased from 10 to 4. You already saw someone else posted about SAT average decrease. Disruptions in the classes have increased. IB Diploma rate has decreased in the recent years.

I'm glad we're finally getting somewhere, after 16 pages. Thank you.

You have been asking the wrong question for 16 pages. Anecdotes =/= evidence. In addition the diploma rates and falling SAT scores were already discussed...so you are not paying attention to the concerns. That is why I mentioned you are arguing for arguments sake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope you are arguing for arguments sake.

When you buy "whole milk" for your toddler and the grocer actually sells you 2% milk, can you really prove your kids brain development was hindered by years of drinking 2% milk instead of whole milk that you believed to have been buying. A systemic downgrade is not discernible from year to year. It is only perceived over many years. It is hard to prove - unless all parties are game for the experiment. In this case, school and RM will not be willing to test the theory. In any case, students should not be put into any experiment. They should be provided authentic magnet education and currently they are not. This is bad faith practice by the county and school. Dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty.

Evidence of harm, please.

There's no need for a randomized controlled trial. Even just "My kid says that the x number of regular RM kids in my kid's Y IB class didn't get z, and we had to keep explaining it." Or "Only [small percentage] of the regular RM kids got their IB diploma."

The facts: The percentage of RMIB kids receiving diplomas has fallen (93% class of 2015 to 88% class of 2017). The SAT scores appear to have dropped by approximately 150 points which is huge- the drop in the writing score is especially noticeable since this is a perceived strength of the program.
The classroom atmosphere and expectations is harder to quantify. Do your children attend magnet programs? If you have spent any time in these classrooms you will know that the teacher is able to cover material rapidly which means they can spend more time on deep discussion or cover material that would not normally be covered. Teachers can also expect students to cope with assignments that are very challenging. If however 20% of the class is not at the same level of preparation and/or ability, any responsible and empathetic teacher would have to slow down and do less. This would happen slowly, gradually and subtly.

It was 97% in 2012.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The facts: The percentage of RMIB kids receiving diplomas has fallen (93% class of 2015 to 88% class of 2017). The SAT scores appear to have dropped by approximately 150 points which is huge- the drop in the writing score is especially noticeable since this is a perceived strength of the program.
The classroom atmosphere and expectations is harder to quantify. Do your children attend magnet programs? If you have spent any time in these classrooms you will know that the teacher is able to cover material rapidly which means they can spend more time on deep discussion or cover material that would not normally be covered. Teachers can also expect students to cope with assignments that are very challenging. If however 20% of the class is not at the same level of preparation and/or ability, any responsible and empathetic teacher would have to slow down and do less. This would happen slowly, gradually and subtly.

Neither of these demonstrates harm to the application cohort, though. If you include kids who do less well on standardized tests in the group, it's not surprising if the group's mean standardized test scores decline. That doesn't mean that a given application-program kid's SAT scores would have been higher if they hadn't had regular-RM kids in their classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Nope you are arguing for arguments sake.

When you buy "whole milk" for your toddler and the grocer actually sells you 2% milk, can you really prove your kids brain development was hindered by years of drinking 2% milk instead of whole milk that you believed to have been buying. A systemic downgrade is not discernible from year to year. It is only perceived over many years. It is hard to prove - unless all parties are game for the experiment. In this case, school and RM will not be willing to test the theory. In any case, students should not be put into any experiment. They should be provided authentic magnet education and currently they are not. This is bad faith practice by the county and school. Dishonesty in any form is still dishonesty.

Evidence of harm, please.

There's no need for a randomized controlled trial. Even just "My kid says that the x number of regular RM kids in my kid's Y IB class didn't get z, and we had to keep explaining it." Or "Only [small percentage] of the regular RM kids got their IB diploma."

Oh, you are asking for anecdotal stories. That is not called evidence though.

Anecdotal information is that there are several of my kids' friends have expressed concern that their new classmates are not staying at the pace of the class. One instance this year is the #of commentaries in IB English class has decreased from 10 to 4. You already saw someone else posted about SAT average decrease. Disruptions in the classes have increased. IB Diploma rate has decreased in the recent years.

I'm glad we're finally getting somewhere, after 16 pages. Thank you.

You have been asking the wrong question for 16 pages. Anecdotes =/= evidence. In addition the diploma rates and falling SAT scores were already discussed...so you are not paying attention to the concerns. That is why I mentioned you are arguing for arguments sake.

Of course anecdotes = evidence. That's why the term "anecdotal evidence" exists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The facts: The percentage of RMIB kids receiving diplomas has fallen (93% class of 2015 to 88% class of 2017). The SAT scores appear to have dropped by approximately 150 points which is huge- the drop in the writing score is especially noticeable since this is a perceived strength of the program.
The classroom atmosphere and expectations is harder to quantify. Do your children attend magnet programs? If you have spent any time in these classrooms you will know that the teacher is able to cover material rapidly which means they can spend more time on deep discussion or cover material that would not normally be covered. Teachers can also expect students to cope with assignments that are very challenging. If however 20% of the class is not at the same level of preparation and/or ability, any responsible and empathetic teacher would have to slow down and do less. This would happen slowly, gradually and subtly.

Neither of these demonstrates harm to the application cohort, though. If you include kids who do less well on standardized tests in the group, it's not surprising if the group's mean standardized test scores decline. That doesn't mean that a given application-program kid's SAT scores would have been higher if they hadn't had regular-RM kids in their classes.

Gawd, you are incorrigible. Let me clarify one more time slowly so that you understand - the magnet students are promised a certain level for their cohort. When Cohort's level falls, the cohort the magnet student were promised is not the cohort they were delivered. The stimulating environment they were promised is being altered subtly. Each kid in the class is part of the educational ecosystem. When you alter the academic level of any kid in that class, you affect each kid in the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The facts: The percentage of RMIB kids receiving diplomas has fallen (93% class of 2015 to 88% class of 2017). The SAT scores appear to have dropped by approximately 150 points which is huge- the drop in the writing score is especially noticeable since this is a perceived strength of the program.
The classroom atmosphere and expectations is harder to quantify. Do your children attend magnet programs? If you have spent any time in these classrooms you will know that the teacher is able to cover material rapidly which means they can spend more time on deep discussion or cover material that would not normally be covered. Teachers can also expect students to cope with assignments that are very challenging. If however 20% of the class is not at the same level of preparation and/or ability, any responsible and empathetic teacher would have to slow down and do less. This would happen slowly, gradually and subtly.

Neither of these demonstrates harm to the application cohort, though. If you include kids who do less well on standardized tests in the group, it's not surprising if the group's mean standardized test scores decline. That doesn't mean that a given application-program kid's SAT scores would have been higher if they hadn't had regular-RM kids in their classes.

What "evidence" would satisfy you? I think there are some people who think that having a true peer group in a magnet program makes the experience qualitatively better and others who think that you can have a mixed ability class with "no harm" to the gifted population. If you fall into the latter camp, it will be really hard to convince you that the classroom experience of the magnet child is qualitatively worse as a result of admitting students who have not gone through a rigorous selection process. There have been a few anecdotes posted here about students reporting less discussion and more disruption in magnet IB classes. Is that what you need to hear to convince you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The facts: The percentage of RMIB kids receiving diplomas has fallen (93% class of 2015 to 88% class of 2017). The SAT scores appear to have dropped by approximately 150 points which is huge- the drop in the writing score is especially noticeable since this is a perceived strength of the program.
The classroom atmosphere and expectations is harder to quantify. Do your children attend magnet programs? If you have spent any time in these classrooms you will know that the teacher is able to cover material rapidly which means they can spend more time on deep discussion or cover material that would not normally be covered. Teachers can also expect students to cope with assignments that are very challenging. If however 20% of the class is not at the same level of preparation and/or ability, any responsible and empathetic teacher would have to slow down and do less. This would happen slowly, gradually and subtly.

Neither of these demonstrates harm to the application cohort, though. If you include kids who do less well on standardized tests in the group, it's not surprising if the group's mean standardized test scores decline. That doesn't mean that a given application-program kid's SAT scores would have been higher if they hadn't had regular-RM kids in their classes.

Different PP here.
Exactly, so the scores are being averaged over more students now. Questions we can't answer but which would be instructive, are the application student's SAT scores dropping? Are the number of IB tests or quality of scores dropping among application students? If these things were happening then something is going wrong with instruction or pace. If the aggregate numbers just look worse because more students are attempting and being averaged in, this isn't an issue. Yes, the explainer sheet looks worse, but the explainer sheet accompanies a transcript. The application student will have classes and scores above the average for the graduating class. The opposite will be true for the local students, they'll compare unfavorably to the averages in scores and classes completed.

Which leaves us in the realm of anecdotes, and just personal experience. I have a hard time believing any Montgomery County HS couldn't produce a classroom full of students who are at least capable of keeping up with the pace of the classes. These wouldn't be remedial students, they would be the top students in a large suburban HS.

[Anonymous]

My child attends the SMAC magnet at Blair. 4 of his 8 classes are not in the magnet at all. I am not at all concerned that his English/SS/language/elective learning is somehow tainted by Blair neighborhood kids. Seems like IB parents even have less concern because IB kids have the actual IB curriculum standard to rely on for quality and content.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child attends the SMAC magnet at Blair. 4 of his 8 classes are not in the magnet at all. I am not at all concerned that his English/SS/language/elective learning is somehow tainted by Blair neighborhood kids. Seems like IB parents even have less concern because IB kids have the actual IB curriculum standard to rely on for quality and content.

That is one of the reason many students who gets accepted into both SMAC and RM IB choose RM. When you are promised a all magnet program, you expect a all magnet program, and not some pseudo magnet version similar to Blair or Poolesville.

IB curriculum is not for magnet students. Its a structure that can be taught to anyone at any academic level. Its a discipline thing and not a rigor thing. Otherwise there would be no need for kids in other IB schools to go through the exhaustive application process for RM and leave their home school comfort.

[Anonymous]

Unless there home school does not offer IB which many do not.

[Anonymous]

there/their