New Budget Recommendations -- eliminate AAP busing and centers

[Anonymous]

^^^^+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools used to require certain grades in honors and teacher recommendations to be eligible to take AP classes. Many people would argue that that was a better system, because the classes were filled with kids who actually wanted to and could do the work. The only reason they dropped the pre-reqs was to increase their standings in the Washington Post high school rankings.

Many people would argue that the system as it stands today is far better. AP and Honors classes are still filled with kids able, eager, and enthusiastic to do the work. The difference is, the classes are open to far more students than they used to be. The curriculum and instruction is still the same - AP curriculum is standardized throughout the U.S. and the exams are all the same.

Of course, there will always be the disgruntled parents who feel that these classes should only be reserved for certain kids, as they currently are in elementary and middle school. Thankfully, high school is when those parents stop getting their way.

AP courses are supposed to be college level courses that prepare students to do well on a college level exam. Most schools used to require that students be ready for college level coursework to take AP classes. Then Jay Mathews started ranking schools on how many kids took AP classes and all requirements were dropped so that schools could attain a higher rank by simply allowing and encouraging any and all kids to take AP courses.

When half students in the class are not prepared for the level and pace of instruction in the class, it is frustrating for the teacher and for the students who are ready. AP courses are not what they used to be: many colleges have reduced the amount and type of credit and/or placement they will allow for AP courses. Colleges are recognizing that AP courses are not truly college level courses anymore.

I have a college freshman and a HS Junior and their experiences in the Honors and AP classes is that the vast majority of the class is ready, eager and willing to do the work, there will always be a few slackers (even in a test in program). They have had a very positive experience. The college freshman was granted enough credits to be considered a sophomore and they filled all but one of his non-major course requirements and one year of calculus. He has also found himself to be very well prepared.

A lot of the big state schools still give credit and placement but the more selective schools are giving less than they used to. Go to the websites of any top 20 or 25 schools and they have it spelled out. A kid in our neighborhood transferred from a big state school to UVa. The state school had given him sophomore status because of his many 5s on AP exams, but UVa gave much less credit, with most of it being elective credit. AP courses today are just not meeting the standards of the more selective schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
A lot of the big state schools still give credit and placement but the more selective schools are giving less than they used to. Go to the websites of any top 20 or 25 schools and they have it spelled out. A kid in our neighborhood transferred from a big state school to UVa. The state school had given him sophomore status because of his many 5s on AP exams, but UVa gave much less credit, with most of it being elective credit. AP courses today are just not meeting the standards of the more selective schools.

There are private schools (and some public) opting to no longer offer AP classes (see: WSJ article -- http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB110116734597581331 )

and FCPS could omit both AP and IB, cut down the stress levels, omit all the testing fees, skip all the high school curricular transfer/student placement, and better plan for and use facilities, all by omitting AP (and IB).

[Anonymous]

^^^^Ummm, those private schools that omitted AP still offer the curriculum but in a manner they consider "better" than the standard AP curriculum and their students still take the AP exam at the end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools used to require certain grades in honors and teacher recommendations to be eligible to take AP classes. Many people would argue that that was a better system, because the classes were filled with kids who actually wanted to and could do the work. The only reason they dropped the pre-reqs was to increase their standings in the Washington Post high school rankings.

Many people would argue that the system as it stands today is far better. AP and Honors classes are still filled with kids able, eager, and enthusiastic to do the work. The difference is, the classes are open to far more students than they used to be. The curriculum and instruction is still the same - AP curriculum is standardized throughout the U.S. and the exams are all the same.

Of course, there will always be the disgruntled parents who feel that these classes should only be reserved for certain kids, as they currently are in elementary and middle school. Thankfully, high school is when those parents stop getting their way.

AP courses are supposed to be college level courses that prepare students to do well on a college level exam. Most schools used to require that students be ready for college level coursework to take AP classes. Then Jay Mathews started ranking schools on how many kids took AP classes and all requirements were dropped so that schools could attain a higher rank by simply allowing and encouraging any and all kids to take AP courses.

When half students in the class are not prepared for the level and pace of instruction in the class, it is frustrating for the teacher and for the students who are ready. AP courses are not what they used to be: many colleges have reduced the amount and type of credit and/or placement they will allow for AP courses. Colleges are recognizing that AP courses are not truly college level courses anymore.

I have a college freshman and a HS Junior and their experiences in the Honors and AP classes is that the vast majority of the class is ready, eager and willing to do the work, there will always be a few slackers (even in a test in program). They have had a very positive experience. The college freshman was granted enough credits to be considered a sophomore and they filled all but one of his non-major course requirements and one year of calculus. He has also found himself to be very well prepared.

A lot of the big state schools still give credit and placement but the more selective schools are giving less than they used to. Go to the websites of any top 20 or 25 schools and they have it spelled out. A kid in our neighborhood transferred from a big state school to UVa. The state school had given him sophomore status because of his many 5s on AP exams, but UVa gave much less credit, with most of it being elective credit. AP courses today are just not meeting the standards of the more selective schools.

Or maybe those schools want to make sure they get tuition for four full years rather than allow kids to get credit for their ap tests....it's usually about the $$$$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^^Ummm, those private schools that omitted AP still offer the curriculum but in a manner they consider "better" than the standard AP curriculum and their students still take the AP exam at the end.

AP exams are optional.

As an example, see Phillips Exeter:

https://www.exeter.edu/about_us/495_7132.aspx

How important are AP exams? How many, and when should my child take AP exams?

Colleges do not expect our students to take AP exams because Exeter does not teach to the AP curriculum. However, we do encourage students to take AP exams if they plan to apply to foreign universities (e.g. Oxford or Cambridge.) AP exams are offered each May on the PEA campus; registration instructions are posted on Blackboard and in the Daily Bulletin. Read more about AP exams on the College Board website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^Ummm, those private schools that omitted AP still offer the curriculum but in a manner they consider "better" than the standard AP curriculum and their students still take the AP exam at the end.

AP exams are optional.

As an example, see Phillips Exeter:

https://www.exeter.edu/about_us/495_7132.aspx

How important are AP exams? How many, and when should my child take AP exams?

Colleges do not expect our students to take AP exams because Exeter does not teach to the AP curriculum. However, we do encourage students to take AP exams if they plan to apply to foreign universities (e.g. Oxford or Cambridge.) AP exams are offered each May on the PEA campus; registration instructions are posted on Blackboard and in the Daily Bulletin. Read more about AP exams on the College Board website.

Well Phillips Exeter is a very highly regarded private, with a long track record of excellence. Colleges know that kids there are taking a very rigorous course load. Comparing PE with your average public, parochial (or even most private) school is like comparing apples and oranges.

[Anonymous]

FCPS is also highly regarded, albeit public school system. FCPS could save lots of money and be a trailblazer by walking away from both AP and IB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FCPS is also highly regarded, albeit public school system. FCPS could save lots of money and be a trailblazer by walking away from both AP and IB.

I'd rather they didn't.

They don't need to pay for the tests, and I'm fine with them no longer paying those fees. But no longer offering AP classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FCPS is also highly regarded, albeit public school system. FCPS could save lots of money and be a trailblazer by walking away from both AP and IB.

TJ could get away with this. Stuart, Annandale, Edison, & Lee? No so much. Besides, some parents WANT their kids in more rigorous college prep than honors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools used to require certain grades in honors and teacher recommendations to be eligible to take AP classes. Many people would argue that that was a better system, because the classes were filled with kids who actually wanted to and could do the work. The only reason they dropped the pre-reqs was to increase their standings in the Washington Post high school rankings.

Many people would argue that the system as it stands today is far better. AP and Honors classes are still filled with kids able, eager, and enthusiastic to do the work. The difference is, the classes are open to far more students than they used to be. The curriculum and instruction is still the same - AP curriculum is standardized throughout the U.S. and the exams are all the same.

Of course, there will always be the disgruntled parents who feel that these classes should only be reserved for certain kids, as they currently are in elementary and middle school. Thankfully, high school is when those parents stop getting their way.

AP courses are supposed to be college level courses that prepare students to do well on a college level exam. Most schools used to require that students be ready for college level coursework to take AP classes. Then Jay Mathews started ranking schools on how many kids took AP classes and all requirements were dropped so that schools could attain a higher rank by simply allowing and encouraging any and all kids to take AP courses.

When half students in the class are not prepared for the level and pace of instruction in the class, it is frustrating for the teacher and for the students who are ready. AP courses are not what they used to be: many colleges have reduced the amount and type of credit and/or placement they will allow for AP courses. Colleges are recognizing that AP courses are not truly college level courses anymore.

I have a college freshman and a HS Junior and their experiences in the Honors and AP classes is that the vast majority of the class is ready, eager and willing to do the work, there will always be a few slackers (even in a test in program). They have had a very positive experience. The college freshman was granted enough credits to be considered a sophomore and they filled all but one of his non-major course requirements and one year of calculus. He has also found himself to be very well prepared.

+100
One of my children is a junior in HS and the other a sophomore in college. Their experiences have been exactly as you described - AP and Honors classes full of kids eager and capable of doing college level work. My college student was also able to fulfill many of his required classes due to AP credits. In no way have these classes been watered down as PP claims. I think that's just the sour grapes of a parent used to having his or her child in "exclusive" AAP classes, and realizing high school doesn't work like that anymore. I don't know what high school PP is referring to, but at our school, there is no way "half the class" is unprepared for AP level work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do realize just how many GE students there are who are equally bright as the vast majority of AAP students? And that this large group of kids is perfectly capable of doing AAP work? FCPS needs to simply allow all kids to take the level (in ALL subjects, not just math) that is suitable for them, and leave the labeling out of it.

This is just silly. There are plenty of children in GE (probably most of them) who are bright enough to do anything they want in life. If they were tested for AAP and did not get in, they are not as bright as the vast majority of AAP students.

And there it is, in a nutshell. The classic AAP parent (and child) superiority complex. It's sad that you actually believe this is true. Thank you, FCPS, for creating this divide and fostering this type of mentality.

I wrote that comment and don't have a child in AAP. If not intelligence, what do you think the identification process is based on?

+1. Travel soccer teams have athletically talented kids (I could have my kids take hours of private lessons a day and they still wouldn't get in), youth orchestras have musically talented kids, and AAP has -- wait for it-- academically talented kids. According to a combination of work samples, teacher recommendations and standardized tests. [b]And if you don't like the standardized tests, you can get an IQ test done and prove the COGAT wrong. So AAP is not just a "superior in their parents minds" thing. It's a designation that kids get after a vote by an objective panel weighs a number of factors. So yes, GE kids have been determined BY FCPS not to be as academically talented as the cutoff for the AAP pool. But, it is also a fact that any team, group or program that is not open admission (or lottery) will select some kids and not others based on talent and performance. Why is this okay in athletics but not academics? I don't accuse parents in my community of a "superiority complex" when they talk about their child making a "cut" team for a high school sport. I usually think, "Larla is a nice kid. Good for her." It takes nothing away for my kids to recognize that other kids are talented-- sometimes in areas where my kids struggle. It's not a zero sum game.[/b]

I wasn't going to come back to this thread after posting a long while back, but am glad I did. The bold statement is so true. Thanks to this PP.

I'm wondering just how many FARMS kids have parents who will march them out to get an IQ test when they don't get into AAP. I'm thinking not a whole lot have the required $400, much less even know how the system works. Guess that's why AAP is full of white and Asian, HHI kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools used to require certain grades in honors and teacher recommendations to be eligible to take AP classes. Many people would argue that that was a better system, because the classes were filled with kids who actually wanted to and could do the work. The only reason they dropped the pre-reqs was to increase their standings in the Washington Post high school rankings.

Many people would argue that the system as it stands today is far better. AP and Honors classes are still filled with kids able, eager, and enthusiastic to do the work. The difference is, the classes are open to far more students than they used to be. The curriculum and instruction is still the same - AP curriculum is standardized throughout the U.S. and the exams are all the same.

Of course, there will always be the disgruntled parents who feel that these classes should only be reserved for certain kids, as they currently are in elementary and middle school. Thankfully, high school is when those parents stop getting their way.

AP courses are supposed to be college level courses that prepare students to do well on a college level exam. Most schools used to require that students be ready for college level coursework to take AP classes. Then Jay Mathews started ranking schools on how many kids took AP classes and all requirements were dropped so that schools could attain a higher rank by simply allowing and encouraging any and all kids to take AP courses.

When half students in the class are not prepared for the level and pace of instruction in the class, it is frustrating for the teacher and for the students who are ready. AP courses are not what they used to be: many colleges have reduced the amount and type of credit and/or placement they will allow for AP courses. Colleges are recognizing that AP courses are not truly college level courses anymore.

I have a college freshman and a HS Junior and their experiences in the Honors and AP classes is that the vast majority of the class is ready, eager and willing to do the work, there will always be a few slackers (even in a test in program). They have had a very positive experience. The college freshman was granted enough credits to be considered a sophomore and they filled all but one of his non-major course requirements and one year of calculus. He has also found himself to be very well prepared.

A lot of the big state schools still give credit and placement but the more selective schools are giving less than they used to. Go to the websites of any top 20 or 25 schools and they have it spelled out. A kid in our neighborhood transferred from a big state school to UVa. The state school had given him sophomore status because of his many 5s on AP exams, but UVa gave much less credit, with most of it being elective credit. AP courses today are just not meeting the standards of the more selective schools.

Um, last I checked, UVA is a big state school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do realize just how many GE students there are who are equally bright as the vast majority of AAP students? And that this large group of kids is perfectly capable of doing AAP work? FCPS needs to simply allow all kids to take the level (in ALL subjects, not just math) that is suitable for them, and leave the labeling out of it.

This is just silly. There are plenty of children in GE (probably most of them) who are bright enough to do anything they want in life. If they were tested for AAP and did not get in, they are not as bright as the vast majority of AAP students.

And there it is, in a nutshell. The classic AAP parent (and child) superiority complex. It's sad that you actually believe this is true. Thank you, FCPS, for creating this divide and fostering this type of mentality.

I wrote that comment and don't have a child in AAP. If not intelligence, what do you think the identification process is based on?

+1. Travel soccer teams have athletically talented kids (I could have my kids take hours of private lessons a day and they still wouldn't get in), youth orchestras have musically talented kids, and AAP has -- wait for it-- academically talented kids. According to a combination of work samples, teacher recommendations and standardized tests. [b]And if you don't like the standardized tests, you can get an IQ test done and prove the COGAT wrong. So AAP is not just a "superior in their parents minds" thing. It's a designation that kids get after a vote by an objective panel weighs a number of factors. So yes, GE kids have been determined BY FCPS not to be as academically talented as the cutoff for the AAP pool. But, it is also a fact that any team, group or program that is not open admission (or lottery) will select some kids and not others based on talent and performance. Why is this okay in athletics but not academics? I don't accuse parents in my community of a "superiority complex" when they talk about their child making a "cut" team for a high school sport. I usually think, "Larla is a nice kid. Good for her." It takes nothing away for my kids to recognize that other kids are talented-- sometimes in areas where my kids struggle. It's not a zero sum game.[/b]

I wasn't going to come back to this thread after posting a long while back, but am glad I did. The bold statement is so true. Thanks to this PP.

I'm wondering just how many FARMS kids have parents who will march them out to get an IQ test when they don't get into AAP. I'm thinking not a whole lot have the required $400, much less even know how the system works. Guess that's why AAP is full of white and Asian, HHI kids.

Maybe they don't understand how the system works, but Mason will fee waiver the WISC.

[Anonymous]

I'm wondering just how many FARMS kids have parents who will march them out to get an IQ test when they don't get into AAP. I'm thinking not a whole lot have the required $400, much less even know how the system works. Guess that's why AAP is full of white and Asian, HHI kids.

Sorry, what's HHI? From your tone I assume it's something you find distasteful. I've come up with Herfindahl–Hirschman Index and Hilton Head Island so far, but figure it's best to just ask.