Worried about son's circumcision

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we just end this? Clearly there are people on both sides and there always will be. It's your son and only you, as his mother, are entitled to make the decision.

No, you really are not entitled to that decision. It's your son's penis, not yours. This is about your newborn's rights to bodily integrity, and that is why people who realize this won't shut up. If the medical reasons were truly compelling, it might be a different story, but they aren't. Otherwise the US wouldn't be the only developed country that promotes circumcision.

If there was even the slightest medical benefit to doing it -- WHICH THERE IS, then you can justify it as a parent doing what you think is best for your child. Especially given that you DON'T NEED FORESKIN. You can't say there isn't any benefit when the science tell us there is. Are you anti-vaccination too because it hurts to get a needle? Would you not advise your son to get his wisdom teeth taken out to prevent impaction and nerve damage down the road?

Tell us more about the science which has been thoroughly criticized for being based on African realities and not the realities of public health in the US.

Also, even a simple understanding of physiology tells us that it's very likely that sex is more pleasurable for intact men.

You bold your points as if they are strong ones. They are not.

[Anonymous]

I mean you use caps. Bold is mine.

[Anonymous]

+1000 please read actual studies before you spew shit about the evidence. There is none to support it routinely as infants in America.

[Anonymous]

Your long ass quoting of the AAP just shows you haven't really done any research. Read PP's rebuttal from researchers at Stanford. Read the actual studies.

This isn't equivalent to an adult removing problem wisdom teeth. This is equivalent to removing the appendixes of newborns because there is a small chance they could get appendicitis down the line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we just end this? Clearly there are people on both sides and there always will be. It's your son and only you, as his mother, are entitled to make the decision.

No, you really are not entitled to that decision. It's your son's penis, not yours. This is about your newborn's rights to bodily integrity, and that is why people who realize this won't shut up. If the medical reasons were truly compelling, it might be a different story, but they aren't. Otherwise the US wouldn't be the only developed country that promotes circumcision.

If there was even the slightest medical benefit to doing it -- WHICH THERE IS, then you can justify it as a parent doing what you think is best for your child. Especially given that you DON'T NEED FORESKIN. You can't say there isn't any benefit when the science tell us there is. Are you anti-vaccination too because it hurts to get a needle? Would you not advise your son to get his wisdom teeth taken out to prevent impaction and nerve damage down the road?

No, I'm strongly pro-vaccination. I post with the same conviction on the vaccine threads (on the pro-side) as I post anti-circ. And there is no better way to reveal your ignorance than making a comparison between circumcision and vaccination. Vaccination provides a proven and significant benefit to the individual and public health. That's why it is recommended by all serious medical professionals around the world. Circumcision, on the other hand, has minuscule medical benefits of questionable relevance to people in developed countries. And that is why the US is the ONLY country in the entire developed world where it is routinely performed. And don't forget that even the AAP, while obviously pro-vaccine, explicitly DOES NOT recommend circumcision as a routine procedure for all newborn boys (look it up if you don't believe it). Their published statement merely argues that the benefits outweigh the risks and therefore parents should have access to the procedure (i.e. insurance should pay for it). The international response to this statement (which was posted upthread) argues convincingly that even this tepid endorsement is the result of a biased perspective, because the science does not justify this unnecessary and irreversible intervention, but circumcision is deeply ingrained in the US as a cultural practice.

[Anonymous]

Interesting that its only in the USA that we recommend routine circumcision, short of potential benefit in areas with significant HIV infection. Perhaps the panel of circumcised males plays a role? Other countries' medical organizations tend to be either neutral or strictly opposed.

Sweet-Ease is fantastic, but the AAP's research does suggest it is insufficient alone for circumcision. As is EMLA, which only works topically, not for the deeper parts of the procedure, such as lysis of the natural adhesions.

I feel very strongly about analgesia for circumcision. The research suggests that circumcised infants display higher pain scores during future vaccinations than uncircumcised ones. The pain does matter and does have a greater effect. Demand the best analgesia for your child if you are going to circ -- the research I have read suggests this is the subcutaneous ring block.

Nurse here, for the record.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except her boyfriend steamrolled her and made the decision himself.

Inaccurate paraphrasing. Accurate quote: "My boyfriend would be pissed if I did that, I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief. My boyfriend still wants it done though."

Ummm nope. That's what she claimed when she didn't get the answers she wanted. Initially she said it was his choice and he would be mad if she went against him. Also your quote - but he would be MAD! - just proves my point.

Does it affect me? Nope. Just addressing PP who says everyone should shut up because it was ONLY MOMS CHOICE. OP could have not asked here and never heard a word.

Him being mad isn't bulldozing her NOR is it inappropriate. If you had a situation with your husband that was similar, I'm sure you'd be mad, too. For example, if you and your husband spoke and disagreed on an issue (to have plastic surgery to lesson a facial scar, bracesn teeth, going on Ritalin, etc.) and your husband said, it was your choice and then right before you implemented your choice, you told him you changed your mind, wouldn't you be mad, too?

Apples and oranges. Her husband was gung-ho from the start so she felt she had to agree by her own explanation even though she was unsure. THAT is the unhealthy BS. Can't relate to your "example" because I would never marry someone who would support unnecessary surgery in a newborn, and facial surgery to fix a scar is totally different than circumcision. Sorry you believe the Man Is The Master BS.

That's not what she said initially. (I haven't read every post so if she changed her story, then I don't know about it.) She said she initially let him make the decision and only after he did was on the fence. "...I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief." Talk about apples and oranges. Where did I say the man is the master? I said if a somewhat big decision needed to be made and my husband said it was completely up to me (or I told my husband that it was completely up to him) and thereafter he (or I) changed his/my mind, he (or I) would be annoyed.

You would not marry someone who is pro circumcision? Presumably you didn't discuss that before falling in love...so you'd call a relationship off
...

Facial surgery (plastic surgery) is elective, results in death far more than circumcisions, requires general anesthesia typically, and has many more complications (puckering of the skin, discoloration, etc.). It is not a dissimilar analogy, except plastic surgery is a more serious decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we just end this? Clearly there are people on both sides and there always will be. It's your son and only you, as his mother, are entitled to make the decision.

No, you really are not entitled to that decision. It's your son's penis, not yours. This is about your newborn's rights to bodily integrity, and that is why people who realize this won't shut up. If the medical reasons were truly compelling, it might be a different story, but they aren't. Otherwise the US wouldn't be the only developed country that promotes circumcision.

THIS. Bodily autonomy is hugely important. Kids are people too, and if a decision to do something to irreversibly alter someone else's body can be delayed until such time as the person is able to make and communicate an informed decision regarding the procedure, I think it should be delayed until consent can be obtained from the person whose body it is. I don't own my kids' bodies, and I won't make permanent decisions for my kids and their bodies that require causing any sort of harm, pain, or alteration unless there's no other medically sound choice and it's a time-sensitive situation.

Braces permanently change teeth. They cause pain and alter the mouth. If your buck toothed kid says no to them, is he the final determiner?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except her boyfriend steamrolled her and made the decision himself.

Inaccurate paraphrasing. Accurate quote: "My boyfriend would be pissed if I did that, I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief. My boyfriend still wants it done though."

Ummm nope. That's what she claimed when she didn't get the answers she wanted. Initially she said it was his choice and he would be mad if she went against him. Also your quote - but he would be MAD! - just proves my point.

Does it affect me? Nope. Just addressing PP who says everyone should shut up because it was ONLY MOMS CHOICE. OP could have not asked here and never heard a word.

Him being mad isn't bulldozing her NOR is it inappropriate. If you had a situation with your husband that was similar, I'm sure you'd be mad, too. For example, if you and your husband spoke and disagreed on an issue (to have plastic surgery to lesson a facial scar, bracesn teeth, going on Ritalin, etc.) and your husband said, it was your choice and then right before you implemented your choice, you told him you changed your mind, wouldn't you be mad, too?

Apples and oranges. Her husband was gung-ho from the start so she felt she had to agree by her own explanation even though she was unsure. THAT is the unhealthy BS. Can't relate to your "example" because I would never marry someone who would support unnecessary surgery in a newborn, and facial surgery to fix a scar is totally different than circumcision. Sorry you believe the Man Is The Master BS.

That's not what she said initially. (I haven't read every post so if she changed her story, then I don't know about it.) She said she initially let him make the decision and only after he did was on the fence. "...I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief." Talk about apples and oranges. Where did I say the man is the master? I said if a somewhat big decision needed to be made and my husband said it was completely up to me (or I told my husband that it was completely up to him) and thereafter he (or I) changed his/my mind, he (or I) would be annoyed.

You would not marry someone who is pro circumcision? Presumably you didn't discuss that before falling in love...so you'd call a relationship off
...

Facial surgery (plastic surgery) is elective, results in death far more than circumcisions, requires general anesthesia typically, and has many more complications (puckering of the skin, discoloration, etc.). It is not a dissimilar analogy, except plastic surgery is a more serious decision.

The difference is that plastic surgery is a decision you make for yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting that its only in the USA that we recommend routine circumcision, short of potential benefit in areas with significant HIV infection. Perhaps the panel of circumcised males plays a role? Other countries' medical organizations tend to be either neutral or strictly opposed.

Sweet-Ease is fantastic, but the AAP's research does suggest it is insufficient alone for circumcision. As is EMLA, which only works topically, not for the deeper parts of the procedure, such as lysis of the natural adhesions.

I feel very strongly about analgesia for circumcision. The research suggests that circumcised infants display higher pain scores during future vaccinations than uncircumcised ones. The pain does matter and does have a greater effect. Demand the best analgesia for your child if you are going to circ -- the research I have read suggests this is the subcutaneous ring block.

Nurse here, for the record.

Definitely. Circumcised males plus women used to circumcised males. I bet no one on the AAP task force had foreskin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except her boyfriend steamrolled her and made the decision himself.

Inaccurate paraphrasing. Accurate quote: "My boyfriend would be pissed if I did that, I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief. My boyfriend still wants it done though."

Ummm nope. That's what she claimed when she didn't get the answers she wanted. Initially she said it was his choice and he would be mad if she went against him. Also your quote - but he would be MAD! - just proves my point.

Does it affect me? Nope. Just addressing PP who says everyone should shut up because it was ONLY MOMS CHOICE. OP could have not asked here and never heard a word.

Him being mad isn't bulldozing her NOR is it inappropriate. If you had a situation with your husband that was similar, I'm sure you'd be mad, too. For example, if you and your husband spoke and disagreed on an issue (to have plastic surgery to lesson a facial scar, bracesn teeth, going on Ritalin, etc.) and your husband said, it was your choice and then right before you implemented your choice, you told him you changed your mind, wouldn't you be mad, too?

Apples and oranges. Her husband was gung-ho from the start so she felt she had to agree by her own explanation even though she was unsure. THAT is the unhealthy BS. Can't relate to your "example" because I would never marry someone who would support unnecessary surgery in a newborn, and facial surgery to fix a scar is totally different than circumcision. Sorry you believe the Man Is The Master BS.

That's not what she said initially. (I haven't read every post so if she changed her story, then I don't know about it.) She said she initially let him make the decision and only after he did was on the fence. "...I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief." Talk about apples and oranges. Where did I say the man is the master? I said if a somewhat big decision needed to be made and my husband said it was completely up to me (or I told my husband that it was completely up to him) and thereafter he (or I) changed his/my mind, he (or I) would be annoyed.

You would not marry someone who is pro circumcision? Presumably you didn't discuss that before falling in love...so you'd call a relationship off
...

Facial surgery (plastic surgery) is elective, results in death far more than circumcisions, requires general anesthesia typically, and has many more complications (puckering of the skin, discoloration, etc.). It is not a dissimilar analogy, except plastic surgery is a more serious decision.

The difference is that plastic surgery is a decision you make for yourself.

Not at 3, 7, 9 years old, etc. to fix a bike accident facial scar. Or not to remove a large birthmark. It is an identical analogy and ridiculous to say you wouldn't do any non-required appearance altering painful procedure. Of course you might.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Except her boyfriend steamrolled her and made the decision himself.

Inaccurate paraphrasing. Accurate quote: "My boyfriend would be pissed if I did that, I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief. My boyfriend still wants it done though."

Ummm nope. That's what she claimed when she didn't get the answers she wanted. Initially she said it was his choice and he would be mad if she went against him. Also your quote - but he would be MAD! - just proves my point.

Does it affect me? Nope. Just addressing PP who says everyone should shut up because it was ONLY MOMS CHOICE. OP could have not asked here and never heard a word.

Him being mad isn't bulldozing her NOR is it inappropriate. If you had a situation with your husband that was similar, I'm sure you'd be mad, too. For example, if you and your husband spoke and disagreed on an issue (to have plastic surgery to lesson a facial scar, bracesn teeth, going on Ritalin, etc.) and your husband said, it was your choice and then right before you implemented your choice, you told him you changed your mind, wouldn't you be mad, too?

Apples and oranges. Her husband was gung-ho from the start so she felt she had to agree by her own explanation even though she was unsure. THAT is the unhealthy BS. Can't relate to your "example" because I would never marry someone who would support unnecessary surgery in a newborn, and facial surgery to fix a scar is totally different than circumcision. Sorry you believe the Man Is The Master BS.

That's not what she said initially. (I haven't read every post so if she changed her story, then I don't know about it.) She said she initially let him make the decision and only after he did was on the fence. "...I let him make this decision, but I was on the fence about it after the doctor said he wouldn't use pain relief." Talk about apples and oranges. Where did I say the man is the master? I said if a somewhat big decision needed to be made and my husband said it was completely up to me (or I told my husband that it was completely up to him) and thereafter he (or I) changed his/my mind, he (or I) would be annoyed.

You would not marry someone who is pro circumcision? Presumably you didn't discuss that before falling in love...so you'd call a relationship off
...

Facial surgery (plastic surgery) is elective, results in death far more than circumcisions, requires general anesthesia typically, and has many more complications (puckering of the skin, discoloration, etc.). It is not a dissimilar analogy, except plastic surgery is a more serious decision.

The difference is that plastic surgery is a decision you make for yourself.

Not at 3, 7, 9 years old, etc. to fix a bike accident facial scar. Or not to remove a large birthmark. It is an identical analogy and ridiculous to say you wouldn't do any non-required appearance altering painful procedure. Of course you might.

See the port wine stains here: http://www.dermnetnz.org/vascular/vascular-malformation.html

[Anonymous]

I would call relationship off if my spouse to be was insistent on on circumcision. Supports it? Sure. Insists? Sorry, won't have kids with someone like that so no point in furthering a relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would call relationship off if my spouse to be was insistent on on circumcision. Supports it? Sure. Insists? Sorry, won't have kids with someone like that so no point in furthering a relationship.

But you would be equally insistent on no circ...how can you ever resolve any issue upon which you truly and vehemently disagree?

[Anonymous]

"Not at 3, 7, 9 years old, etc. to fix a bike accident facial scar. Or not to remove a large birthmark. It is an identical analogy and ridiculous to say you wouldn't do any non-required appearance altering painful procedure. Of course you might."

These are things that will affect a child's confidence and emotional well-being.

Having an intact penis should not affect those things.

If that is the culture, let's change it.