the Atlantic: The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

Give me a break. Outing your friends? You said they are one of the "great minds" in computer science, which means they have some level of fame.

Famous people aren't outed...they are out.

You really are slow, aren’t you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

Give me a break. Outing your friends? You said they are one of the "great minds" in computer science, which means they have some level of fame.

Famous people aren't outed...they are out.

You really are slow, aren’t you.

No...just calling out bullshitters when I see them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Blame the proliferation of AP classes. The classes are inevitably structured to teach to the test, meaning zero books. It's a travesty.

I showed my senior the article and this was exactly her response!

My kids have each taken 10 AP courses. I keep a bookshelf of the books they were assigned in high school: 4 shelves x ~ 40 books per shelf. That's just the assigned reading, not the recommended reading. Not all teachers teach AP courses the same way. It's not the AP label; it's how some school districts dictate their particular AP curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

This person wasn't friends with the CS kids in school. They were the ones reading 600 page sci-fi/fantasy books (that were part of a 10 book series) before any of us stumbled upon it.

Yes, that’s true. It is absolutely laughable to claim that today’s great minds of CS are not voracious readers of fiction. What a clown.

Fiction is probably the best medium to imagine and understand minds that work differently from one’s own, which is actually a powerfully important skill for anyone designing products and technologies that will be used by others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

Give me a break. Outing your friends? You said they are one of the "great minds" in computer science, which means they have some level of fame.

Famous people aren't outed...they are out.

You really are slow, aren’t you.

No...just calling out bullshitters when I see them.

No, you are slow. You are a clown, in fact. You are taking an absolutely ridiculous position (that CS leaders do not read challenging literature, all of them apparently), which anyone who knows actual smart CS people recognizes as a profoundly stupid position. All you are doing is outing yourself more and more as stupid.

I’m wondering if you are one of these college students who can’t understand hard concepts, actually. That would track.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:CS nerds read Tolkien

I agree with Gen-X, but even in 2024?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

This person wasn't friends with the CS kids in school. They were the ones reading 600 page sci-fi/fantasy books (that were part of a 10 book series) before any of us stumbled upon it.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CS nerds read Tolkien

I agree with Gen-X, but even in 2024?

Definitely. It’s still beloved. Perhaps even more so now that The Establishment has decided Tolkien is anti-DEI, so reading it becomes a little act of rebellion among teens. Tolkien is as popular as it ever was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the 90s, my AP Lit teacher (private HS in the NYC area) told us we wouldn't get to all the books on the list for the exam and we should go rent the movies for as many as we could.

We read full books, but even then the amount of material on the AP exam didn't lend itself to being covered. I imagine the list is the same or longer now?

There is no required list of texts for the exam. There are authors whose work and style you should be familiar with because you will be asked to analyze text of that difficulty and caliber. But not all classes preparing for it will read the same books. My kids school has offered ~10 different 1-semester course options for AP Lit. focusing on different themes or genres.

[Anonymous]

Just to interject that there is no right or wrong way to end up as a lying piece of shit:

- SBF hates all books and believes if an author can't communicate their ideas in two paragraphs they are failures

- Caroline Ellison loves books and literature and is now trying to make it as a novelist

They are both frauds and Caroline will now have two years in prison to work on her books.

So, you can be a voracious reader, or despise it entirely...and rest assured you can still end up in the same place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This Atlantic article is scary. I'm guessing a lot of this is due to the short attention span brought on by cellphones and social media.

My kids have screens and phones, and one is a CS major, they built their PCs, and they have read and continue to read tons of literature, go to plays and musicals, create art, etc. etc.

People just make excuses. Your phone and computer don't prevent you from reading a book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Atlantic article is scary. I'm guessing a lot of this is due to the short attention span brought on by cellphones and social media.

My kids have screens and phones, and one is a CS major, they built their PCs, and they have read and continue to read tons of literature, go to plays and musicals, create art, etc. etc.

People just make excuses. Your phone and computer don't prevent you from reading a book.

DP. They don’t directly, but as an adult I can say with 100% certainty that my relationship with my phone has absolutely affected my attention span and my ability to focus on long, dense reading material. Perhaps not all people are affected in the same way or to the same degree, but come on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CS nerds read Tolkien

I agree with Gen-X, but even in 2024?

Absolutely. Some of the really big ones got made into shows (Game of Thrones, Wheel of Time, Howl's Moving Castle, Dune, Stranger Things, The Witcher...).

https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/50.The_Best_Epic_Fantasy_fiction_

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to FCPS in the 90s and we had lots of assigned books in high school, but I have to say, I don’t think I ever really fully grasped what I was reading. I’ve always thought it’s kind of odd that we expect teenagers with almost no life experience to understand themes in literature written by adults for adults.

Nevertheless, despite my lack of understanding and over dependence on Cliff’s Notes, I got a 5 on my AP English test and never took another English class again. Many years later, as an adult, I discovered a love of reading, revisited many of the novels I read in high school, and finally understood what they were all about! Now I have teenagers who both love to read, but honestly, I’m not too sure they’re really getting it either.

I am sure I didn’t grasp the deeper themes in the many books I read in high school. But that didn’t mean the effort wasn’t worth it. I doubt it is common for anyone who did not get the training required to read challenging books as a child to pick one up as an adult. At some point, kids need to learn how to do hard things, and how to pick up and get through a book that’s challenging. That is the skill set that is being lost.

These books are challenging because they were written for people in a different place at a different time, and it wasn't challenging for them.

Charles Dickens and Shakespeare wrote ”trash" for the common people.
Theie audience weren't delighted by deciphering obsolete language from a past culture. Shakespeare's plays were not even books! They were live performances! You know, like movies.

This PP is exactly right. While it can be educational in a cross-cultural way to be exposed to "the canon", a lot of the canon involves obsolete writing styles and outdated cultural constructs and vocabulary. It's possible to be taught to appreciate these works, or even to appreciate them without assistance, but in general they are losing relevance because they are less interesting than modern entertainments. Reveling in sheer wordiness has gone out of style among highly-educated people. I regret that a bit but it definitely seems to be the case in my environment. And I don't find the new stuff better...it's just more modern and therefore arguably more relevant.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

Um, yes, War and Peace is an extremely interesting and dynamic book. I literally read in it just a few days, I couldn't stop reading.

That PP was satire