the Atlantic: The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have younger kids (elementary age) and this conversation is interesting to me because of what I see at our elementary and among families (all upper middle class families with well educated parents -- many working in academic or policy fields where deep reading is a part of the job).

We often feel out of step with others at the school. I often feel like we are the only family that does not allow our kids to do unlimited iReady app use at home for instance. I'm not even comfortable with how much the school uses iReady in class but we definitely aren't going to hand our kids tablets at home for hours of iReady on top of that. When I talk to other parents about it they don't get my concern at all. They like the apps because they can track progress and because it engages kids better than books or paper and pencil. But that's specifically what I don't like about it -- yes it's easier to get a kid to engage with reading comp or math when it's delivered by little characters on a screen with little dopamine rewards for every right answer and each "level achieved." But I worry about what happens when kids are asked to do these things without that interface. So we barely do any iReady at home and instead we encourage reading of all kinds (including on a kindle sometimes but also magazines and lots and lots of physical books) and we supplement math with Singapore math books at home. I think other families think we're weird luddites whose kids will fall behind. Both our kids had to get special training from the school on tablet use in order to take assessments because the school won't offer them by hand and our kids don't get enough tablet time at home to know how to use them by the time they got to K.

I have no idea if this will result in my kids being able to read better than others when they get to college. I'm largely doing this because of my own personal attitudes about screens and knowledge acquisition. But I'd be really sad if my kids got to high school or college and lacked the patience or ability to sit down and read an entire book and then discuss it intelligently. To me that's a fundamental academic skill. It's what most of my career is based on (I'm a lawyer turned subject matter expert). Reading and discussing books is a key component of my marriage and family life.

Anyway -- following with interest.

Reading for pleasure will be easier to keep going with girls than with boys after middle school years. That being said, tablet stupidity is something that is harming our kids. The only reason we got tablets was because our school required it, and it made me so mad. Our district finally completely banned cell phone use this year, so there is hope of some reversal.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes them stop assigning books in school. “It’s not fair to the boys!” I have a teen girl and boy and they both read a lot. Stop lowering expectations for the boys. They can manage just fine.

[Anonymous]

This Atlantic article is scary. I'm guessing a lot of this is due to the short attention span brought on by cellphones and social media.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

DP
Donald Knuth

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to FCPS in the 90s and we had lots of assigned books in high school, but I have to say, I don’t think I ever really fully grasped what I was reading. I’ve always thought it’s kind of odd that we expect teenagers with almost no life experience to understand themes in literature written by adults for adults.

Nevertheless, despite my lack of understanding and over dependence on Cliff’s Notes, I got a 5 on my AP English test and never took another English class again. Many years later, as an adult, I discovered a love of reading, revisited many of the novels I read in high school, and finally understood what they were all about! Now I have teenagers who both love to read, but honestly, I’m not too sure they’re really getting it either.

I am sure I didn’t grasp the deeper themes in the many books I read in high school. But that didn’t mean the effort wasn’t worth it. I doubt it is common for anyone who did not get the training required to read challenging books as a child to pick one up as an adult. At some point, kids need to learn how to do hard things, and how to pick up and get through a book that’s challenging. That is the skill set that is being lost.

These books are challenging because they were written for people in a different place at a different time, and it wasn't challenging for them.

Charles Dickens and Shakespeare wrote ”trash" for the common people.
Theie audience weren't delighted by deciphering obsolete language from a past culture. Shakespeare's plays were not even books! They were live performances! You know, like movies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

DP. Read Crime and Punishment in high school and it still ranks as one of my all time favorites. It’s phenomenal.

I read it in high school and hated it. My friends invented some in-jokes off of it and that was the best part.

Spoiler. There's a wack job who murders an old lady and that's basically the only interesting scene in 300 pages. The rest is a bunch of dull policing and OP having recriminations and delirious sweats.

And I liked Moby Dick even though it has tons of filler. So it's not that I can't handle a bit of tedium with my great literature.

The great Russian novels should be left for college.

Not true at all. He didn't murder one lady; there is a lot of romance etc. This is what people who haven't read the book think.

I read it all. Pre-1900s romance is boooooring. I had to become middle-aged to understand how Pride & Prejudice could be romantic. C&P is an unhappy, depressing book all the way through.

The fact that you think it's boring just shows you haven't trained your mind to understand it. This is why when people say "Who cares what kids read, just let them read!" I always flinch. Minds and character are for training, and what you read will train you. Start reading the good stuff and you'll be able to read the harder, longer good stuff when you're older.

It’s all just taste and opinion.

You sound like someone that also believes that you should only listen to classical music and opera.

Why not just accept people like what they like and don’t like what they don’t like and move on.

People might think I'm dumb if I don't say how much I love things that people say are smart.

When's the last time one of these uber readers on DCUM posted a comment, on any topic, that was informed by the content of one these classics they extol?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

This person wasn't friends with the CS kids in school. They were the ones reading 600 page sci-fi/fantasy books (that were part of a 10 book series) before any of us stumbled upon it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

OK but the schools cutting back on novels aren't putting in Plato and Kant in their place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

Yeah he doesn't go to this school. He lives in Canada.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

Give me a break. Outing your friends? You said they are one of the "great minds" in computer science, which means they have some level of fame.

Famous people aren't outed...they are out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

This person wasn't friends with the CS kids in school. They were the ones reading 600 page sci-fi/fantasy books (that were part of a 10 book series) before any of us stumbled upon it.

You are correct...but that is considered trash fiction by most of the people on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Bill Gates recommends a lot of books, but doesn't talk a lot about old classics.

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Books

[Anonymous]

CS nerds read Tolkien

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this. Aren't admissions more competitive than ever? Aren't these the superhuman students who aced the hardest classes, scored extremely highly on SATs, had very time-consuming ECs....? We are told nobody has a chance at these schools, and yet, those who are actually there, can't read a book? How is this possible.

Test prep. Read a short passage find the main idea. Move onto the next skill. Meanwhile, they've never read a whole book about anything. I totally understand why this is happening. Since there's no homework these days, I assign it. My kid is always reading a book for homework, and we're always discussing it.

But that just sounds like a run of the mill 4.0 GPA/grade grabber who we are repeatedly told can't get into, e.g. Columbia.

I mean, my 8th grader is not a big reader and she read a non-fiction psychiatry book over just a few days this summer and we discussed it. Pretty sure she would be capable of discussing Pride and prejudice and Crime and punishment within a couple of weeks. I read these books in HS. They are interesting and not that hard to read.

Those books aren't interesting at all. I mean, Crime & Punishment? Are you now going to tell me War & Peace is interesting too?

Perhaps if we let a kid read a non-fiction psychiatry book instead of Pride and Prejudice or whatever, then things would be better.

But, if you want to read Crime & Punishment, then go for it.

DP. Read Crime and Punishment in high school and it still ranks as one of my all time favorites. It’s phenomenal.

I read it in high school and hated it. My friends invented some in-jokes off of it and that was the best part.

Spoiler. There's a wack job who murders an old lady and that's basically the only interesting scene in 300 pages. The rest is a bunch of dull policing and OP having recriminations and delirious sweats.

And I liked Moby Dick even though it has tons of filler. So it's not that I can't handle a bit of tedium with my great literature.

The great Russian novels should be left for college.

Not true at all. He didn't murder one lady; there is a lot of romance etc. This is what people who haven't read the book think.

I read it all. Pre-1900s romance is boooooring. I had to become middle-aged to understand how Pride & Prejudice could be romantic. C&P is an unhappy, depressing book all the way through.

The fact that you think it's boring just shows you haven't trained your mind to understand it. This is why when people say "Who cares what kids read, just let them read!" I always flinch. Minds and character are for training, and what you read will train you. Start reading the good stuff and you'll be able to read the harder, longer good stuff when you're older.

It’s all just taste and opinion.

You sound like someone that also believes that you should only listen to classical music and opera.

Why not just accept people like what they like and don’t like what they don’t like and move on.

People might think I'm dumb if I don't say how much I love things that people say are smart.

When's the last time one of these uber readers on DCUM posted a comment, on any topic, that was informed by the content of one these classics they extol?

Are you (a) asking for an ROI of great works of literature, many of which have endured for centuries if not millennia, while also (b) using as your standard of measurement the extent to which specific works of literature have been invoked in DCUM posts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really surprising when it is the overwhelming view of parents on this board that the humanities are a complete waste of time, and everyone needs to be studying CS to make maximum $$ in tech or finance.

Meanwhile some of the very best minds in actual computer science - not software engineering or cowboy coding or being an elite "hacker," but the people who invented the very concepts that drive computing - will tell you the liberal arts are critical to their thinking.

Although it tends to be philosophy and logic vs reading fiction.

Einstein loved the great thinkers, but you don’t read about him extolling the virtues of literature authors.

As someone who knows some of the great minds in computer science today personally, you could not be more wrong. Not only are they voracious readers, they are voracious readers of fiction. You obviously don’t know any of today’s leaders personally.

OK...list some names.

Um, no. I am absolutely not outing my friends. But I will tell you about one of them, to give you more color: I’m in a fiction-based book club with this particular friend, something we started years ago after talking about how we wanted more structure to our reading. It’s been going for years now. He is well-recognized as a luminary in the field by his peers.

This idea that the great minds of CS do not read fiction is absolutely bizarre. You cannot be serious.

This person wasn't friends with the CS kids in school. They were the ones reading 600 page sci-fi/fantasy books (that were part of a 10 book series) before any of us stumbled upon it.

Yes, that’s true. It is absolutely laughable to claim that today’s great minds of CS are not voracious readers of fiction. What a clown.