Can someone explain the mentality of never being proactive or organized to me?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Serious question…other than just outright asking someone you are dating to tell you if they have ADHD or whatever…is there some other less rude way to figure this out? Will people lie to you about it, even if you ask?

Seems like 90% of the relationship threads have someone (usually the man) with some ADHD or ASG or whatever diagnosis.

NP.

Make them plan a week long vacation.
It’s eye opening.

I just didn’t know what to call it and thank gawd I packed a guidebook and knew the top 5+ things to do as I had been in the vicinity before 15 years earlier.

The problem is I am very high functioning and we met in grad school, then was his hyper focus. Fast FW and I had capacity to plan the wedding, travel, bethesda home purchase, kid 1c nanny, keep working and then WHAM!!! Needed him to take the baton sometimes and he had NO CLUE. He’d go into shutdown mode, lash out, forget decisions we discussed, hide at work more and more. It was so nuts he went to take a neuropsych test as a 38 yo. He was asd/adhd, he still won’t do anything of the things his therapist suggested or anything we (I) read.

Am counting down the days until I think the youngest child can advocate for herself well. kid 1 has the same asd/adhd, dinner neuropsych test in 4th grade.

Not the life I envisioned but I kept my career, entity and clarity in his bad behavior patterns. The incompetency is so constant thought it’s unbelievable.

So your ADHD kid is destined to get divorced too? Or, shouldn’t expect to get married because they’ll never be able to do what is expected of them by their spouse? I find this so sad.

ADHD is more treatable and respondent to medicine than ASD. But i guess they could always get married and live with you! You could keep taking care of them and any grandchildren!

Life’s too short to deal with this crap.

I told my kids if anyone admits they have any of these issues, just move on to someone else.

Will make sure to give them a primer for anyone that is trying to lie through it or otherwise shows signs of these problems.

Ditto and Amen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

The main point and the true black and white here is he controls what he does and she controls what she does. Period. She can't control him into doing what she wants. It doesn't matter the quality of what he's doing, it's futile by definition. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks he should or shouldn't do and what he does or doesn't do and why, she can only control herself. Same whether he's disabled or a jerk.

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option. That was the point of mentioning how many constraints could be put on the gift and that there's a continuum of gift choices. His preference falls on a different part of the continuum.

It doesn't matter how many gifts and other tasks there are either. Still the only things she can control are her attitude and her actions. So her time and effort would be better spent accepting that than trying to change him.

so divorce?

Divorce, choose to accept his flaws, choose not to care about 90% of what's stressing her out, stop being a martyr, etc. She has lots of choices.

No she doesn’t. She has two bad choices: divorce and coparent with a dysfunctional Ex, and do everything & let him tag along doing nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

Do you think you’re saying something smart?

Smart? Don't know.

Revolutionary, yes. I honestly think most wives and mothers would be way happier accepting what I'm saying.

DP but I completely agree with you. You are basically advocating for a Stoic mindset, which of course gets lambasted on this board full of (willfully) unhappy people, but is actually one of the keys to a happy existence.

I have been teaching Stoic philosophy to my children and it has dramatically improved their anxiety and overall behavior.

And for the record I think what you are saying is very smart.

Thanks. I was not familiar with Stoic philosophy.

OP has had 10+ years watching her husband act this way. There's no evidence to expect him to suddenly buy a birthday present unprompted and plenty of history to show he won't, yet she's waiting around for him to do it anyway. That's akin to expecting fairies to do it.

You should read up on it, I suspect it would resonate with you. If you are familiar with the serenity prayer (I believe they say it in AA but I’m not sure), it’s basically stoicism in a nutshell.

Please enlighten me about how it’s stoic to be a lazy-*ss man?

She's responding to me and I already said I'm female. I'm a wife and mom giving advice to other wives and mothers based on my own experiences.

Your experiences that no doubt are completely different from OP’s. But why should women be stoic while men laze around? Please answer.

Because what many wives are doing (complaining, nagging, blaming, repeated wishful thinking) isn't getting them anywhere.

you still don’t get it with your use of words like “nagging”

By nagging, I just meant OP reminded him multiple times about the party and gift, but that didn't result in his getting there on time with a gift she'd approve of. Whatever you want to call it, it's not an effective strategy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Serious question…other than just outright asking someone you are dating to tell you if they have ADHD or whatever…is there some other less rude way to figure this out? Will people lie to you about it, even if you ask?

Seems like 90% of the relationship threads have someone (usually the man) with some ADHD or ASG or whatever diagnosis.

NP.

Make them plan a week long vacation.
It’s eye opening.

I just didn’t know what to call it and thank gawd I packed a guidebook and knew the top 5+ things to do as I had been in the vicinity before 15 years earlier.

The problem is I am very high functioning and we met in grad school, then was his hyper focus. Fast FW and I had capacity to plan the wedding, travel, bethesda home purchase, kid 1c nanny, keep working and then WHAM!!! Needed him to take the baton sometimes and he had NO CLUE. He’d go into shutdown mode, lash out, forget decisions we discussed, hide at work more and more. It was so nuts he went to take a neuropsych test as a 38 yo. He was asd/adhd, he still won’t do anything of the things his therapist suggested or anything we (I) read.

Am counting down the days until I think the youngest child can advocate for herself well. kid 1 has the same asd/adhd, dinner neuropsych test in 4th grade.

Not the life I envisioned but I kept my career, entity and clarity in his bad behavior patterns. The incompetency is so constant thought it’s unbelievable.

So your ADHD kid is destined to get divorced too? Or, shouldn’t expect to get married because they’ll never be able to do what is expected of them by their spouse? I find this so sad.

Great question. My asd/adhd kid is female.

On one hand, society still conditions females to be orderly, domestic and caring for others.

On the other hand, she can’t remember what day she last brushed her teeth. Must have been today. So you tell me what the bar is for asd/adhd women is.

You tell me. You’re the one divorcing her dad for the same diagnosis. Hopefully he’ll extend her some grace, and vice versa.

If you consider undermining her therapy, schooling, behavior, and stability, as “grace,” yeah, he’s already been doing that for 12 years. He’s very permissive and lies to doctors, teachers, coaches, himself.

Be glad you seem to not know the maladaptive type.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Serious question…other than just outright asking someone you are dating to tell you if they have ADHD or whatever…is there some other less rude way to figure this out? Will people lie to you about it, even if you ask?

Seems like 90% of the relationship threads have someone (usually the man) with some ADHD or ASG or whatever diagnosis.

these guys don’t actually have ADHD or autism. they’re just selfish and dysfunctional.

while you’re dating, pay attention to whether they successfully manage to keep their houses clean, cook, and take care of themselves. A red flag is if their mother or sister makes any reference (even if apparently flattering) about how you are “so good for him.” but most importantly - suss out how he handles any sort of domestic conflict, like planning a trip, handling chores, etc.

Just curious…if someone hires a cleaning service once per week, does that mean anything? If you recognize you aren’t that neat, does that indicate a self awareness that someone with ADHD/ASG doesn’t have?

No. It just means you have some money and think a cleaning lady will solve your problems. It won’t. Just your pee dribbles, weekload of crumbs, dirty dishes and garbage cans piling up.

Cleaners don’t put stuff away or process the mail or pay the bills or throw out rancid food or file your paperwork stacks.

They just move your mess into a pile and clean the surface area, then move the pile back. All clean! Not tidy or organized or taken care of but cleaned surface, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you’re thinking about it wrong. Like PP upthread said the benefit, if there is one, is that he just doesn’t have to do much that doesn’t directly help himself. Cash in an envelope at a kids party (blech, btw, everyone who thinks this is great is wtf. It’s not the end of the world but come on people, way to lower the bar) is a great example. He was able to sleep in, didn’t have to wrap anything, etc.

But the real answer is not what the benefit is for him, but what the consequences are. Which is to say, none. Unfortunately, everything is taken care of by you so there’s no fallout for him. You have my sympathy because as a single mom who does it all, I couldn’t imagine another adult in my house sitting around benefiting from my labor. My 12-year-old DD functions like a mini adult to help with chores, her own responsibilities, etc. I’m raising her this way intentionally. When I read threads about husbands that are like this (I assume they think all they need to do is earn money? Which I do as well, so yeah, it’s not enough if you want a family), I feel deep empathy because that sounds really hard.

Everyone says “just let him feel the consequences“ but the truth is that in a family, the people who will really feel it will be the kids. So I’m not sure what the answer is except marriage counseling, and being prepared to walk away if you have to. But that’s also not an easy answer.

He didn't lower the gift bar. You and OP have a different bar for gifts than he does, which is okay, but neither of you believe it is. That's fine as your preference, but it's your responsibility to own it and not martyr yourselves.

If she wanted an expensive wrapped gift that reflected the kid's interests and was the right color, size, and brand (see how many burdens we can add to ourselves?), she could have gotten it herself. Instead she's choosing to blame him.

Relatedly, she doesn't have a choice to make him buy the "right" kind of gift or get there on time. She can only control her and what she controls is her actions and her reactions. She could change her viewpoint to any number of other ways of looking at this, but she doesn't want to. This is not blaming her, it's just explaining how the world actually works.

Yes, I'm familiar with your argument. This is the black and white, binary, "there are only two choices" argument. As if the only options are an "expensive wrapped gift in the right color/size/brand" or an envelope of cash. This is the mantra of the "let them eat pizza, what's wrong with screens, why should I sign them up for sports because I hate taking them to practice and they can just throw the ball outside" folks. What people who make this argument are trying desperately to avoid is the reality that quality parenting, not "my" or "OP's" preference, but decent quality parenting, lives in the middle ground. Just like a quality approach to life. You don't phone it in at work, and you don't have to kiss the boss's @ss. You don't make 6 extra mortgage payments a year, and you don't pay the mortgage late. You do a decent job, most of the time, and life works out pretty well. Perfect is indeed the enemy of good.

If the envelope of cash (we'll stick with that example) was a one-off, it wouldn't matter. But it's not. It might as well have been late arrival at soccer practice, not helping pick up at home, or any other number of half-@ss behaviors that ultimately fall on someone else. But they shouldn't care about shoes in the hallway!, you'll say. According to who? You? Why does that opinion matter more than the person who prefers order? For the same reason OP's husband can't grab a craft kit at Barston's Child's Play on CT ave NW (or in Arlington for those in VA) where they literally gift wrap at the counter while they're checking you out. First, laziness. Second, selfishness. And hey, be that person if you want to. But own it, recognize that it doesn't make you a good co-worker, partner, or friend, and deal with the consequences. This attitude; the "who cares if there are crumbs on the counter" approach, is always, repeat always, taken by the person who not only wants to do less, but wants to disingenuously benefit from the more done by someone else. OP should lower her standards, you say? Maybe. But no where is it suggested that the DH should raise his. And ultimately the goal here is not to grind your way through life, but to be happy, right? Again, a decent job, most of the time. They *both* get to decide what decent means. And that's not happening if it all falls on her.

The main point and the true black and white here is he controls what he does and she controls what she does. Period. She can't control him into doing what she wants. It doesn't matter the quality of what he's doing, it's futile by definition. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks he should or shouldn't do and what he does or doesn't do and why, she can only control herself. Same whether he's disabled or a jerk.

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option. That was the point of mentioning how many constraints could be put on the gift and that there's a continuum of gift choices. His preference falls on a different part of the continuum.

It doesn't matter how many gifts and other tasks there are either. Still the only things she can control are her attitude and her actions. So her time and effort would be better spent accepting that than trying to change him.

I’m sorry but this is the dumbest take ever.

If anything your spouse or in fact anyone does upsets or annoys you It’s your fault bc you are responsible for your reactions

What PP really means to say is “you’re all just a bunch of nagging martyrs. If you’d just stop caring everything would be fine.”

Well, what OP is doing isn’t working. Maybe if she calmed down a bit, or tried a new tactic, he might respond more. Maybe he won’t, but you never know until you try. I know that’s more labor, but it’s really two people in a relationship. It’s never just one person’s fault. I did that with my parents, and it worked. Along with accepting who they are.

Oh right, we haven’t tried enough ways to break through to them. That must be it!

So your perspective is you’re married and in this NT/ND relationship?
or youre not married?
or you just suspect your parents are something and you apparently know all about their decades long marriage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

I think what you’re saying is Radical Acceptance.

You’re not accepting his disrespectful and incompetent behavior. You’re accepting that that’s all he’s got for you. Dx or not. You’ve stopped expecting him to be reliable, you’ve stopped expecting him to be a responsible parent, you’ve stopped expecting him to pick up after himself.

He cannot or will not do that.

Then you make your exit plan.

Leave now? Live in separate homes or bedrooms? Leave in five years? Gray divorce? Open marriage and live separately? Ignore him entirely? Be asexual and hang out with friends more?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

Do you think you’re saying something smart?

Smart? Don't know.

Revolutionary, yes. I honestly think most wives and mothers would be way happier accepting what I'm saying.

Not abuse victims.

You have to set boundaries PP.
Not twist yourself into a pretzel to accommodate some idiot’s dysfunction and ineptness at life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

Do you think you’re saying something smart?

Smart? Don't know.

Revolutionary, yes. I honestly think most wives and mothers would be way happier accepting what I'm saying.

DP but I completely agree with you. You are basically advocating for a Stoic mindset, which of course gets lambasted on this board full of (willfully) unhappy people, but is actually one of the keys to a happy existence.

I have been teaching Stoic philosophy to my children and it has dramatically improved their anxiety and overall behavior.

And for the record I think what you are saying is very smart.

Yes fine, write him off, in your mind and actions. Be stoic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

Do you think you’re saying something smart?

Smart? Don't know.

Revolutionary, yes. I honestly think most wives and mothers would be way happier accepting what I'm saying.

DP but I completely agree with you. You are basically advocating for a Stoic mindset, which of course gets lambasted on this board full of (willfully) unhappy people, but is actually one of the keys to a happy existence.

I have been teaching Stoic philosophy to my children and it has dramatically improved their anxiety and overall behavior.

And for the record I think what you are saying is very smart.

Thanks. I was not familiar with Stoic philosophy.

OP has had 10+ years watching her husband act this way. There's no evidence to expect him to suddenly buy a birthday present unprompted and plenty of history to show he won't, yet she's waiting around for him to do it anyway. That's akin to expecting fairies to do it.

She (OP) can grieve the shoddy marriage, inept life Partner and unreliable Father of her children. That takes a lot of time manage has the ongoing trauma of still living in it. The chronic failures, trying to drive the family forward, 2 steps FW and 1 step back all the time, no one to talk with about adult stuff & family decisions, no one to trust.

It’s a lonely marriage. One must grieve what will never be, before being “stoic” and before finding a good time to get out. There is no good time, but minimize the damage and negative influence to the children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

Do you think you’re saying something smart?

Smart? Don't know.

Revolutionary, yes. I honestly think most wives and mothers would be way happier accepting what I'm saying.

DP but I completely agree with you. You are basically advocating for a Stoic mindset, which of course gets lambasted on this board full of (willfully) unhappy people, but is actually one of the keys to a happy existence.

I have been teaching Stoic philosophy to my children and it has dramatically improved their anxiety and overall behavior.

And for the record I think what you are saying is very smart.

Thanks. I was not familiar with Stoic philosophy.

OP has had 10+ years watching her husband act this way. There's no evidence to expect him to suddenly buy a birthday present unprompted and plenty of history to show he won't, yet she's waiting around for him to do it anyway. That's akin to expecting fairies to do it.

You should read up on it, I suspect it would resonate with you. If you are familiar with the serenity prayer (I believe they say it in AA but I’m not sure), it’s basically stoicism in a nutshell.

Please enlighten me about how it’s stoic to be a lazy-*ss man?

She's responding to me and I already said I'm female. I'm a wife and mom giving advice to other wives and mothers based on my own experiences.

Your experiences that no doubt are completely different from OP’s. But why should women be stoic while men laze around? Please answer.

Because what many wives are doing (complaining, nagging, blaming, repeated wishful thinking) isn't getting them anywhere.

Nothing wrong with holding a loser accountable. Over and over.

Find the humor in it.

Have the kids join in.
Once they’re 8 or 9 yos they’ll already know a permissive, out of it Dad will be easy to con for money, ice cream, staying up late. Skip the homework too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Right now she's letting herself get upset at things for which getting upset isn't the only option.

Thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. The other option is accepting that her partner just won’t help. Aaaaaand we’re back at the black and white thinking. No middle ground, no let’s find out what works for both people. The bar is as low as you decide it should be. Accept it or be upset, your choice!

I swear, the crumbs on the table people are masters at projection. No one is more controlling than the person who digs in and refuses to act. I have an ex like this. His tag line was “you want to control all the decisions”, when the truth was that the future absolutely paralyzed him, and he couldn’t make decisions, period. But rather than facing that, he lashed out at me. It was way easier than facing his own personal failings.

It's really not black and white thinking. It's just reality that you can't make anyone else do anything. You can't find out what works for both people if he isn't going to budge or compromise. You can't go back and not marry him or make him someone else.

What else can you do that you can actually control the outcome of other than accept those things as true (then either leave or stay and deal) or choose not to accept them, i.e., keep getting upset at predictable behavior?

Carolyn Hax talks about this all the time. You can't make someone exercise, eat better, listen to you, change their behavior, care about you feelings.

Do you think you’re saying something smart?

Smart? Don't know.

Revolutionary, yes. I honestly think most wives and mothers would be way happier accepting what I'm saying.

DP but I completely agree with you. You are basically advocating for a Stoic mindset, which of course gets lambasted on this board full of (willfully) unhappy people, but is actually one of the keys to a happy existence.

I have been teaching Stoic philosophy to my children and it has dramatically improved their anxiety and overall behavior.

And for the record I think what you are saying is very smart.

Thanks. I was not familiar with Stoic philosophy.

OP has had 10+ years watching her husband act this way. There's no evidence to expect him to suddenly buy a birthday present unprompted and plenty of history to show he won't, yet she's waiting around for him to do it anyway. That's akin to expecting fairies to do it.

You should read up on it, I suspect it would resonate with you. If you are familiar with the serenity prayer (I believe they say it in AA but I’m not sure), it’s basically stoicism in a nutshell.

Please enlighten me about how it’s stoic to be a lazy-*ss man?

She's responding to me and I already said I'm female. I'm a wife and mom giving advice to other wives and mothers based on my own experiences.

Your experiences that no doubt are completely different from OP’s. But why should women be stoic while men laze around? Please answer.

Because what many wives are doing (complaining, nagging, blaming, repeated wishful thinking) isn't getting them anywhere.

you still don’t get it with your use of words like “nagging”

By nagging, I just meant OP reminded him multiple times about the party and gift, but that didn't result in his getting there on time with a gift she'd approve of. Whatever you want to call it, it's not an effective strategy.

Good chance he’s doing that on purpose.

To spite her and gain what little “control” he can in this confusing world of his.

Think about that OP. It is a possibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Serious question…other than just outright asking someone you are dating to tell you if they have ADHD or whatever…is there some other less rude way to figure this out? Will people lie to you about it, even if you ask?

Seems like 90% of the relationship threads have someone (usually the man) with some ADHD or ASG or whatever diagnosis.

these guys don’t actually have ADHD or autism. they’re just selfish and dysfunctional.

while you’re dating, pay attention to whether they successfully manage to keep their houses clean, cook, and take care of themselves. A red flag is if their mother or sister makes any reference (even if apparently flattering) about how you are “so good for him.” but most importantly - suss out how he handles any sort of domestic conflict, like planning a trip, handling chores, etc.

Just curious…if someone hires a cleaning service once per week, does that mean anything? If you recognize you aren’t that neat, does that indicate a self awareness that someone with ADHD/ASG doesn’t have?

No. It just means you have some money and think a cleaning lady will solve your problems. It won’t. Just your pee dribbles, weekload of crumbs, dirty dishes and garbage cans piling up.

Cleaners don’t put stuff away or process the mail or pay the bills or throw out rancid food or file your paperwork stacks.

They just move your mess into a pile and clean the surface area, then move the pile back. All clean! Not tidy or organized or taken care of but cleaned surface, yes.

Hiring a cleaning lady for your apartment or house is cultural. Your UMC parents did the same or you’re from a country where help is cheap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How is it that everyone on DCUM has ADHD/ASD?

They don’t. ADHD is really just that people were never taught executive functioning skills as children. Especially boys, who generally are held to much lower standards than girls and observed that their own fathers never did anything around the house.

Listen, you clearly have not read ANY research on ADHD. People with ADHD have brains that are actually structurally different. Study after study has shown that parenting has ZERO effect on the frontal lobe and executive functioning and absolutely does not cause ADHD. Just as a tip, please don't say this crap in public because it shows how ignorant you are. If you have a family member or close friend with ADHD I implore you to read Dr Russell Barkley's research or books because your ignorance is going to hurt people you love.

The ignorance being spouted in here by OP and the "crumbs on the counter" poster is laughable.

Go get treated for your undiagnosed anxiety issues.
Being a know-it-all, controlling, self-congratulatory shrew is such an ugly look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only thing “stoicism” in relation to a dysfunctional partner will get you is ever-deeper into denial and dysfunction. Being angry is actually more functional because it holds your partner at least somewhat accountable and may motivate you to take care of yourself. In fact the few times I was able to actually manage to get through to my ex was when I was very, very angry and sincerely at the end of my rope, and showed it.

Stoicism and acceptance are for things you actually cannot change. Not dysfunctional (or abusive) partners.

You really think you can change dysfunctional or abusive partners? I strongly disagree.

You can get divorced which is not what stoic lady advocates for.

This is an incorrect conclusion. Divorce is a perfectly reasonable course of action if you are dissatisfied with your spouse or marriage.

You can’t control your spouse’s behavior, or who he is as a person. You can control whether or not you remain married to him. So either accept who he is, or divorce. But stop believing that you can force him to be the person you think he should be, rather than the person he is.