Nate Silver: "Go to a state school"

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

what no?

Let me school you a bit. Go to your chart. Check the X axis. The scale of the chart is designed to make it seem as if there are big differences amongst the scores, but the average score for all races is some form of 700. At Harvard, they taught us (even the minorities) how to discern lies backed by stats and charts.

NP--Exactly. The difference between the average score for those of Asian descent (around 770) and those of African descent (around 720) is the difference between the 99th percentile and the 98th percentile. Even Mensa takes the top 2%.

I bet if you show both sections of the SAT, the difference would be wider.

Both would still be 95th percentile and above.

1400 is very different than 1600

How so?

200 point difference. That's a lot. You can't tell me that you find a 1400 as equally impressive as 1600. The median SAT scores for top tier colleges used to be > 1400. Those colleges even see the difference.

But it IS a bell curve. Meaning at 1400 is much closer in performance to a 1600 than it is to a 1200. The difference between 1600 and 1400 is the same as it is between 1350 and 1400. And it’s completely reasonable to conclude that the lower one is a more desired applicant based on other factors.

yea, like race

Well you can play the race card if you want, but it could also be any number of things. Overcoming a disadvantaged background (irrespective of race), showing some leadership, artistic or musical talent, athletic ability, essay writing. Maybe that person was a pied piper at their school and blazed trails and got great ECs. Maybe they pushed themselves and challenged themselves and took a longer commute to go to a better HS. Maybe they cared for younger siblings or came from a broken home or had an unstable family and had to move around. Maybe they didn’t have a multigenerational expectation of academic achievement and had to figure out on their own how to succeed without the scaffolding so many kids have. Maybe you’re looking at things through a certain lens to grind your axe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:YOUR kids should go to community college then state school or better yet trade school…

My kids? Oh, they are at elite SLACs, Ivies, Georgetown, or UVA at worst.

Oh brother -good luck with that - and honestly, there are no such thing as elite SLACs - they are havens for the socially awkward that can't cut the big kid schho

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

what no?

Let me school you a bit. Go to your chart. Check the X axis. The scale of the chart is designed to make it seem as if there are big differences amongst the scores, but the average score for all races is some form of 700. At Harvard, they taught us (even the minorities) how to discern lies backed by stats and charts.

NP--Exactly. The difference between the average score for those of Asian descent (around 770) and those of African descent (around 720) is the difference between the 99th percentile and the 98th percentile. Even Mensa takes the top 2%.

I bet if you show both sections of the SAT, the difference would be wider.

Both would still be 95th percentile and above.

1400 is very different than 1600

How so?

200 point difference. That's a lot. You can't tell me that you find a 1400 as equally impressive as 1600. The median SAT scores for top tier colleges used to be > 1400. Those colleges even see the difference.

We aren’t comparing 1400 and 1600 here. Average black score according to chart is 1440 average white score is 1480. So 1440 and 1480.

[Anonymous]

Nate Silver's father taught at Michigan State University in East Lansing, MI, where Nate grew up. Nate could have gone to Michigan State for free, but instead went to college at the University of Chicago and the London School of Economics (2 very expensive schools).

What he is really advising is, "if you want to be a school teacher or a run of the mill H&R Block tax preparer, by all means go to Flagship State University and save alot of money. If you want to appear on CNN, litigate cases in federal court, run a presidential campaign, pay for private."

[Anonymous]

Why? What does a 1600 predict that we value vs a 1400?

Ability to learn, analyze, retain, time and solve.

Or maybe it just proves that mommy and daddy found a shrink-for-hire to get their kid extra time on the test. Study after study has shown that it's rich, white kids who game the SAT to get more time to boost their scores--unless you think there's an ADHD cluster in Scarsdale, NY: https://www.wsj.com/articles/many-more-students-especially-the-affluent-get-extra-time-to-take-the-sat-11558450347

So if that 1450 is from a student who was unlikely to have a $30,000 test-prep tutor or extra time for a fake diagnosis, then as an admissions officer, I at least know that score is real. In my experience, the parents who think the SAT should be the sole or primary determinant of admissions (as opposed to one factor among many) are those who are using their wealth to already game the system for their kids (like the parents of Scarsdale) or those with kids who have nothing else to recommend them *besides high test scores*.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Double Ivy grad. Hiring manager at major consulting firm. Agree with everything Silver said. Everything is spot on.

It's not the 1990s any more. Most parents with kids heading to college won't realize how much higher education has changed since their days, especially at elite schools. Even if the name of the classes look familiar, how those classes are taught is hugely different now and far more ideologically slanted.

Our best associates and analyst these days are from major state schools but there's also a place for the good and solid LACs too, so don't lose hope.

I call bullsh*t. Most consultants are clowns, but MBB is still running to recruit at HSY and will only take the very, very topped ranked at Flagship State University.

You're not understanding and are actually making the same point. Top hs students will find the same success regardless of whether they attend an elite college or a public university. The reason there are more form HSY than from Flagship U is because there are more top hs students attending there, not because they have that name on their diploma.

MBB will take almost anyone from HYS, but only the #1 ranked dude/girl from U of I. Where would you want to go to college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nate Silver's father taught at Michigan State University in East Lansing, MI, where Nate grew up. Nate could have gone to Michigan State for free, but instead went to college at the University of Chicago and the London School of Economics (2 very expensive schools).

What he is really advising is, "if you want to be a school teacher or a run of the mill H&R Block tax preparer, by all means go to Flagship State University and save alot of money. If you want to appear on CNN, litigate cases in federal court, run a presidential campaign, pay for private."

Or he could have gone to Michigan, like Larry Page, whose father also taught at Michigan State.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

what no?

Let me school you a bit. Go to your chart. Check the X axis. The scale of the chart is designed to make it seem as if there are big differences amongst the scores, but the average score for all races is some form of 700. At Harvard, they taught us (even the minorities) how to discern lies backed by stats and charts.

NP--Exactly. The difference between the average score for those of Asian descent (around 770) and those of African descent (around 720) is the difference between the 99th percentile and the 98th percentile. Even Mensa takes the top 2%.

I bet if you show both sections of the SAT, the difference would be wider.

Both would still be 95th percentile and above.

1400 is very different than 1600

How so?

200 point difference. That's a lot. You can't tell me that you find a 1400 as equally impressive as 1600. The median SAT scores for top tier colleges used to be > 1400. Those colleges even see the difference.

We aren’t comparing 1400 and 1600 here. Average black score according to chart is 1440 average white score is 1480. So 1440 and 1480.

Say it loud!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Double Ivy grad. Hiring manager at major consulting firm. Agree with everything Silver said. Everything is spot on.

It's not the 1990s any more. Most parents with kids heading to college won't realize how much higher education has changed since their days, especially at elite schools. Even if the name of the classes look familiar, how those classes are taught is hugely different now and far more ideologically slanted.

Our best associates and analyst these days are from major state schools but there's also a place for the good and solid LACs too, so don't lose hope.

I call bullsh*t. Most consultants are clowns, but MBB is still running to recruit at HSY and will only take the very, very topped ranked at Flagship State University.

You're not understanding and are actually making the same point. Top hs students will find the same success regardless of whether they attend an elite college or a public university. The reason there are more form HSY than from Flagship U is because there are more top hs students attending there, not because they have that name on their diploma.

MBB will take almost anyone from HYS, but only the #1 ranked dude/girl from U of I. Where would you want to go to college?

a) You're totally making that up.

b) They will take beyond #1 from any flagship university.

c) I'd rather go wherever makes sense for me as an individual, knowing that I am by far the biggest factor in my future success.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

what no?

Let me school you a bit. Go to your chart. Check the X axis. The scale of the chart is designed to make it seem as if there are big differences amongst the scores, but the average score for all races is some form of 700. At Harvard, they taught us (even the minorities) how to discern lies backed by stats and charts.

NP--Exactly. The difference between the average score for those of Asian descent (around 770) and those of African descent (around 720) is the difference between the 99th percentile and the 98th percentile. Even Mensa takes the top 2%.

I bet if you show both sections of the SAT, the difference would be wider.

Both would still be 95th percentile and above.

1400 is very different than 1600

How so?

200 point difference. That's a lot. You can't tell me that you find a 1400 as equally impressive as 1600. The median SAT scores for top tier colleges used to be > 1400. Those colleges even see the difference.

Percentiles are what matter, not scores. And likelihood of future success is what matters in college admission, not impressiveness of test scores.

Studies have shown that SAT scores reflect success in college. That's why schools like MIT, Cornell, Caltech, etc.. are bringing back tests required.

Yes, true. But it's one of many factors that predict success, which is why it's not the only criterion they look at. And when you talk about success in the professional world, things like people skills and creativity and reliability and mental health matter way more than the score you got on some test you took when you were 17 years old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:b) They will take beyond #1 from any flagship university.

How far beyond #1?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

what no?

There is no meaningful difference between a 725 and a 750.

Exactly, the Harvard numbers actually disprove the anti diversity lies that are told about weak black and minority students at Harvard. An average of 720 for black students compared to an average of 740 for white students is not the info that the trolls want you to know.

And perhaps, instead of breaking it down by race, it should more accurately be broken down by "socio economic status". I think that would tell a much different picture. And Harvard (and other elite schools) are smart to recognize that a 1600 from a wealthy kid from Scarsdale who grew up in privilege is not that different from a 1470 from a kid who grew up in poverty, attended a HS where 25% only attend college and then it's CC or local 4 year state for majority of them, and the HS might only have 2-3 APs. So a kid who achieves great success given the obstacles in life is an amazing addition to the freshman class and you cannot truly compare them on paper to the rich kid who had all the privileges for 18+ years.

breaking it down by SES would be better, but I bet you'd still see a difference between the races.

See, I disagree. I think once you level SES, you won't see that much of a difference. Or at least not a significant difference. Because 1520 vs 1600 is not a difference. Both "cross the baseline required" and then AO looks at everything else and most likely forgets about the SAT score. Your 1600 only gets you so far, and it doesn't rank you higher than a 1500/1540 most of the time

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

what no?

Let me school you a bit. Go to your chart. Check the X axis. The scale of the chart is designed to make it seem as if there are big differences amongst the scores, but the average score for all races is some form of 700. At Harvard, they taught us (even the minorities) how to discern lies backed by stats and charts.

NP--Exactly. The difference between the average score for those of Asian descent (around 770) and those of African descent (around 720) is the difference between the 99th percentile and the 98th percentile. Even Mensa takes the top 2%.

I bet if you show both sections of the SAT, the difference would be wider.

Both would still be 95th percentile and above.

1400 is very different than 1600

How so?

200 point difference. That's a lot. You can't tell me that you find a 1400 as equally impressive as 1600. The median SAT scores for top tier colleges used to be > 1400. Those colleges even see the difference.

But it IS a bell curve. Meaning at 1400 is much closer in performance to a 1600 than it is to a 1200. The difference between 1600 and 1400 is the same as it is between 1350 and 1400. And it’s completely reasonable to conclude that the lower one is a more desired applicant based on other factors.

yea, like race

Well you can play the race card if you want, but it could also be any number of things. Overcoming a disadvantaged background (irrespective of race), showing some leadership, artistic or musical talent, athletic ability, essay writing. Maybe that person was a pied piper at their school and blazed trails and got great ECs. Maybe they pushed themselves and challenged themselves and took a longer commute to go to a better HS. Maybe they cared for younger siblings or came from a broken home or had an unstable family and had to move around. Maybe they didn’t have a multigenerational expectation of academic achievement and had to figure out on their own how to succeed without the scaffolding so many kids have. Maybe you’re looking at things through a certain lens to grind your axe.

Well stated!!! Unfortunately, the racist ones with an axe to grind won't be able to understand what you wrote

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can see people are upset because they have an investment, whether emotional, financial, or ideological, with the current modus operandi at most elite colleges so they are bitterly resistant to the changing realities surrounding elite higher education these days despite that Silver cites data showing significant shift in public perspectives on higher education and elite higher education.

This is what people thought of a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 1994: highly accomplished and brainy nerd.

This is what many people now think when they encounter a freshly minted Harvard graduate in 2024: Either a legacy admit from an extremely connected and / or wealthy family (nepotism) or a mollycoddled diversity admit benefiting from a system that rewards identity over merit. And both will bring the same increasingly annoying social justice warrior outlook largely divorced from reality.

Silver is not a right wing MAGAtard, he is a Democrat and sold his polling business to the NYT. But like a lot of very intelligent nerds, Silver doesn't shy away from frankness.

You are an idiot. The minority students at Harvard etc have near perfect test scores and/or grades. The average student now is miles ahead of the 1994 student in terms of academic indicators. Same with the wealthy kids; at the top schools everyone has the scores that's why they add other factors to select.

what no?

Let me school you a bit. Go to your chart. Check the X axis. The scale of the chart is designed to make it seem as if there are big differences amongst the scores, but the average score for all races is some form of 700. At Harvard, they taught us (even the minorities) how to discern lies backed by stats and charts.

NP--Exactly. The difference between the average score for those of Asian descent (around 770) and those of African descent (around 720) is the difference between the 99th percentile and the 98th percentile. Even Mensa takes the top 2%.

I bet if you show both sections of the SAT, the difference would be wider.

Both would still be 95th percentile and above.

1400 is very different than 1600

How so?

200 point difference. That's a lot. You can't tell me that you find a 1400 as equally impressive as 1600. The median SAT scores for top tier colleges used to be > 1400. Those colleges even see the difference.

We aren’t comparing 1400 and 1600 here. Average black score according to chart is 1440 average white score is 1480. So 1440 and 1480.

Say it loud!

So not much difference at all. And in reality, if SES is more likely a bigger part of the difference than Race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nate Silver's father taught at Michigan State University in East Lansing, MI, where Nate grew up. Nate could have gone to Michigan State for free, but instead went to college at the University of Chicago and the London School of Economics (2 very expensive schools).

What he is really advising is, "if you want to be a school teacher or a run of the mill H&R Block tax preparer, by all means go to Flagship State University and save alot of money. If you want to appear on CNN, litigate cases in federal court, run a presidential campaign, pay for private."

Did you read the piece? He addresses how times have changed.