Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Yes that is pretty good summation of the life of Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the West Bank. Settlers are given roads Palestinians can’t drive on, access to water they cannot drink, the legal system favors Israeli settlers— you’ll notice how few are prosecuted for atrocities against Palestinians— so you’ve identified a very fair comparison.
it within Israel proper, for Israeli citizens who are not Jewish, can you give an example of apartheid?
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Yes that is pretty good summation of the life of Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the West Bank. Settlers are given roads Palestinians can’t drive on, access to water they cannot drink, the legal system favors Israeli settlers— you’ll notice how few are prosecuted for atrocities against Palestinians— so you’ve identified a very fair comparison.
it within Israel proper, for Israeli citizens who are not Jewish, can you give an example of apartheid?
Do you agree the conditions in the West Bank are apartheid conditions, carried out by the Israeli government?
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
So now Israel somehow installed Hamas? It somehow made 44% of Gazans to vote for it? They had 100% control of their own destiny. All they had to do is abandon terrorism. And Israel and EGYPT (you seem to conveniently leave them out) did not impose land and sea blockade until the war between Hamas and Fatah broke out and Hamas deposed of all Fatah members in Gaza. Let’s talk about gaslighting, the fact that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same rights privileges as Jewish Israelis does not register with you.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Yes that is pretty good summation of the life of Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the West Bank. Settlers are given roads Palestinians can’t drive on, access to water they cannot drink, the legal system favors Israeli settlers— you’ll notice how few are prosecuted for atrocities against Palestinians— so you’ve identified a very fair comparison.
it within Israel proper, for Israeli citizens who are not Jewish, can you give an example of apartheid?
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Yes that is pretty good summation of the life of Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the West Bank. Settlers are given roads Palestinians can’t drive on, access to water they cannot drink, the legal system favors Israeli settlers— you’ll notice how few are prosecuted for atrocities against Palestinians— so you’ve identified a very fair comparison.
it within Israel proper, for Israeli citizens who are not Jewish, can you give an example of apartheid?
marriage
burial
government benefits
and how could I forget - immigration/naturalization
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
So now Israel somehow installed Hamas? It somehow made 44% of Gazans to vote for it? They had 100% control of their own destiny. All they had to do is abandon terrorism. And Israel and EGYPT (you seem to conveniently leave them out) did not impose land and sea blockade until the war between Hamas and Fatah broke out and Hamas deposed of all Fatah members in Gaza. Let’s talk about gaslighting, the fact that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same rights privileges as Jewish Israelis does not register with you.
DP. The choice of one is no choice at all. Hamas was Bibi’s choice, how can you deny that? It’s well known.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
So now Israel somehow installed Hamas? It somehow made 44% of Gazans to vote for it? They had 100% control of their own destiny. All they had to do is abandon terrorism. And Israel and EGYPT (you seem to conveniently leave them out) did not impose land and sea blockade until the war between Hamas and Fatah broke out and Hamas deposed of all Fatah members in Gaza. Let’s talk about gaslighting, the fact that Israeli Arabs enjoy the same rights privileges as Jewish Israelis does not register with you.
DP. The choice of one is no choice at all. Hamas was Bibi’s choice, how can you deny that? It’s well known.
Hamas won because Bush’s administration insisted that all factions are allowed to be represented in the election to make it seem democratic .
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Anybody on here have the power to get Israel to stop. For a skilled military and defense force this is very sloppy and has only created a greater danger of generational hate and lost most of international support.
Pretty sure most Americans that support are only holding their nose in support at this point.
This is beyond an eye for an eye and will not succeed
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
Just wait until somebody comes and takes your house. You can just accept it and move on and build a new one; they’ll take that too
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
So the borders and nation states are now etched in stone and now immutable in perpetuity?
Are you sure? Are you familiar with world history?
So are you saying that you want Palestine from the river to the sea? Is that what you want?
No, I’m actually indifferent re: what the nation state that occupies that particular region is called as long as it’s not an apartheid state. I just don’t care what it’s called (why do you?), as long as it’s sustainable and doesn’t operate under a racist caste system. But if a decision is made to instead persist as an apartheid state, I’ll advocate for U.S. financial assistance and foreign policy cover to be withdrawn entirely. Just one person, but that’s what I’ll stand for.
However, my guess is that Israel will either choose to change its apartheid policies and practices at some point, or the change will be made for them.
But back to you. How do you reconcile the apparent conflict? You believe that displacement is OK for everyone else, but not Israelis. How do you square those views with one another?
Can you give me an example of racist caste system? Of, apartheid? Are you saying that non Jewish Israelis do not enjoy the same rights and opportunities? Have to sit at the back of the bus? Use separate water fountains, have a separate legal system, use separate entrances? What’s this caste system?
Let’s start with the individuals living in the West Bank and Gaza - most of whom have lived their entire lives under occupation, with vastly diminished rights imposed on them by the occupier (in this case, the State of Israel) and zero control of their own destiny, their own liberty, their own borders (land, sea, and air), etc.
It’s an apartheid state. If you cannot understand that reality, it’s pointless to discuss further. I’m not going to abide by someone telling me “But Israel left Gaza 17 years ago!” or “Israeli Arabs have the exact same rights as Israeli Jews!”. I’m not here for the gaslighting.
You know full well that Israel retained 100% effective and constructive control of Gaza after installing a puppet government that, as it turns out, but their hand earlier this fall.
So yeah, Israel is an apartheid state that operates under a racist caste system. That system is embedded in the foundation of Zionism.
This is not facts, this is a set of perspectives, and anyway, I don't care. I have that freedom.
Trust and believe, every non-Zionist knows that what you just said when your mask dropped speaks volumes, and it speaks for all Zionists, too.
YOU. DON’T. CARE.
You don’t care because oppression only bothers you when you’re the one being oppressed. And sadly, it’s not just innocent Palestinians and other regional Arabs that suffer for your narcissism. You also condemn innocent Jews in Israel, here in the U.S., and around the globe with your callous disregard for the consequences of not caring that your vicious oppression of others will continue to breed terrorists who have nothing to lose.
And that’s why sensible Americans want a course correction. And when (not if) enough of us create sufficient momentum for change, the gears will move. Pinky swear.
People can have self control and not become terrorist.
Palestinians have desires, Israelis have desires, why are Palestinian desires more important? They can be important to you but they do not need to be important to others. In the U.S., we have an education crisis, elder care crisis, crumbling infrastructure, shrinking Healthcare provider base, but Palestinian supporters want Americans to spend all their moral and political energy on their desires? No, I am fine with status quo, if it is in the best interest of the security of the United States.
Anonymous wrote:Dare to criticize Israel's policies and actions, get doxxed, cancelled and labeled an anti-semite. It's outrageous that we've allowed this sacred cow malignancy to get to this point, but here we are, unfortunately.
This is so sad. It’s truly out of control and there are so many like minded people who are scared to speak up. I’ve never seen anything like it in my lifetime (Gen X). I never felt any worry of losing my job or being doxxed for supporting BLM or any other social issue. Apparently genocide = antisemitism .
This is not true at all. First off, many people
lost jobs for posting against BLM and other issues and people were very scared of being “cancelled” for not signaling the right virtues. Second, the president of Harvard kept her job after saying it was permissible to call for Jewish genocide “depending on context.”
In fact, the opposite is true — people know better than to speak out against blacks, but want to express antisemitism and hatred of Jews openly and without repercussions.
If someone came to a job interview and told me, “I hate black people, I want them dead,” then I would never hire them. If someone says “from the river to the sea” on their social media, that is the same thing as calling for genocide of Israelis and I wouldn’t hire them either.
This is your opinion but not universally true. Most do not mean anything of the sort. You are free to insist it’s true (even when those who say so tell you that is not what they are saying). You are free to act on your beliefs and discriminate against others based on mistaken beliefs if you must. Your insistence that others act on your beliefs or else be labeled antisemitic is where you cross the line.
Whose line? Your line, internet stranger? My view is that you’re supporting Hamas, terrorism, suicide bombers, Putin (a well established friend of Hamas), and genocide by supporting Hamas.
Innocent Palestinians are not protected by Hamas. Hamas is the enemy of innocent Palestinians.
The world must end Hamas. Sadly, since Hamas doesn’t care about its own people and uses them as shields and steals their aid money for trying to eliminate the state of Israel, then supporting a ceasefire means you are supporting Hamas to continue and refortify. You’re an enemy of innocent Palestinians.
As opposed to whom? Who do you believe to be the friend of innocent Palestinians?
Because if you say “Israel” you can see yourself right out. A ceasefire means that a few days go by where children don’t die in their beds.
Shorter term pain for longer term gain for the people as whole. History is rife with conflicts resulting in the death of innocents and it is heartbreaking for everyone involved. But Hamas must be removed for the sake of humanity. Do you disagree that Hamas must be removed? How do you think it can be done?
I think Israel’s actions created Hamas and its continued actions will foster the next generation of Hamas or another generation with even more hatred in their heart and soul.
Bingo. Now we’re talking real truth. How can you not say you’re antisemitic when you read the above? Israel is to blame for a terrorist organization being voted into place by Gazan citizens? Can we just agree to blame Jews for every evil in the world?
I can sympathize when people say they support a ceasefire in support of saving lives IF you still want to take out Hamas. But to start blaming Israel for everything that Palestine has become? This is when you need history lessons on how Israel was created and what Palestinians have done over the last 75 years to build themselves up as a people (spoiler alert - they’ve done Jack shit because their only goal is to eliminate the state of Israel, not to educate themselves or use billions in aid to support the positive growth of their own citizens). They’ve been offered two state solutions but they want nothing other than complete elimination of Israel and Israelis. They’ve been given billions in aid annually but continue to vote for a government that focuses more on building tunnels and bombs rather than help their citizens. And their schoolbooks teach them not to pursue becoming a doctor or engineer or lawyer, but rather a jihadist and martyr.
But no, none of that is on them. It’s all the Jews fault. The Jews should just line up next to the pits and allow themselves to be executed. Then the Palestinians can be allowed the whole land of Israel and run it into the ground, and then who will they blame? The Americans, just like Bin Ladin.
DP. I am sure you sincerely believe what you wrote and nothing I am going to post on this forum is going to change your world view but I do need to reply anyway.
First, I’m Jewish. My ancestors came to the US fleeing the Ukrainian Pogroms at the turn of the 19th century. I am not anti semitic in any way, shape or form.
Acknowledging the historical and current harm that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people has nothing to do my feelings about Judaism or those who are Jewish. Just like my acknowledgement of the historical and current harm that Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have inflicted on Israelis has nothing to do with my feelings about Islam/Muslims.
In 1948 Israel drove hundreds of thousands of people away from their homes. Since then Palestinians have sought the right of return. They don’t want a two state solution. They don’t want peaceful self government in Gaza. They want to return to their homes (many of which were subsequently destroyed to create room for Israeli farmland and settlements). Of course Israel had its reasons to push the Palestinians from their land in 1948 but those actions are what fanned the flame of hatred that created Hamas. Israel’s actions now are doing nothing to stop that hatred from continuing to the next generation.
I don’t have a solution. The crux of the problem is there are two groups wanting the same land. What is your solution? That Palestinians should just give up their claim? That is just not going to happen. Zionists came back after thousands of years to reclaim their ancestral land. The Palestinian claim is just as strong (many would say stronger).
Did your ancestors have the right of return to Ukraine? Did Jews liberated from the camps have the right of return? No. Displacements happen all over the world, but if you continue to live a pipe dream of something that will never happen, you will never build anything new. I wish instead of wanting ti return to homes that no longer exist, Palestinians would delineate the future that they want to see, the one that has Israel in it. Until they do that there is not going to be a Palestinian state.
You seem very matter-of-fact and peachy keen with the idea of forced displacements being a natural phenomena, but many who share that view vis-a-vis Palestinian refugees are hysterical when it comes to their perceived view that others are supportive of the idea that Israel should be displaced as a nation state.
How do they (maybe you?) reconcile those inconsistent views?
It doesn’t need to be reconciled. Negotiations are grounded in realities. Ukraine is not getting Crimea back. Armenia is not getting Nagorny Karabach back. Japan is not getting Kuril Islands back. Mexico is not getting Texas back, and Palestinians are not getting Israel back . When people accept reality and stop living in denial and fantasy worlds, they can move forward and build something.
Just wait until somebody comes and takes your house. You can just accept it and move on and build a new one; they’ll take that too
Well then fight a war for it and then don't complain about the war.
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